Yang Fishy
Wolf Hakoda
Firebending General of the Zutarian Army
all that rises must fall, all that is born must die, all that is gathered will be scattered
Posts: 2,857
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Post by Yang Fishy on Jun 25, 2007 20:32:10 GMT -5
In all honesty, she seemed to have no real power. As Fire Lady she might have the power and be able to define the role. I think she'd be able to define it far better than a waterbending peasant girl would. I'm going with what we have seen by her and she has yet to show some leadership skills if you ask me. Simply because she was born nobility doesn't mean she'd make the best noblewoman or if married to Zuko, the best Firelady. As Firelady she will have the power but would she be able to wield it wisely? We have yet to see her come out of her shell so to speak and show a little emotion rather than indifference, boredom, apathy, and disgust at jumping in a slurry pipe. I have to disagree that a Waterbending peasant can't be an excellent leader in the Firenation because Katara's much more than "southern folk" as Toph would like to put it. She's caring and compassionate yet she's not too forgiving. She's also capable of adapting to many things. She's a lot like her element which represent change. Although people may have their own opinion of Katara, by the end she manages to change everyone's mind and have people warm up to her. Besides she has made ally's with most of the world leaders already and she's well capable of listening in and making her voice heard in the war room kinda like Zuko, LOL. Shows good leadership. Loves to be pampered and spoiled now and then. Already gives order and is wearing the crown. She's good to go LOL jk.
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Post by Amira on Jun 25, 2007 20:53:58 GMT -5
I would say Katara's skills would make her a better consort for Aang. She has shown that repeatedly as well as growing in the role of being invaluable to Aang. I just don't see Katara fitting into the Fire Nation. Even if Zuko is a drastically different fire lord or tries to drastically change things, 100 years of propaganda and years of a set culture are not going to change over night. I don't see Katara fitting into that in a way that would make it beneficial or easy for Zuko to change anything about his nation (that's assuming he'd change anything other than stopping the war).
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Monk
Haru
Posts: 337
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Post by Monk on Jun 25, 2007 21:18:17 GMT -5
This does seem to be the theme of Zutara: change. "Katara can change Zuko's coal of a heart into a beautiful diamond." and ""Katara can be a positive influence on the development of the Fire Nation." I think they are both overestimating Katara's ability to make change as well as the malleability of Zuko and the Fire Nation. They say that it is one of the worst things you can do by going into a relationship in which you think you can change the other person. But Katara does not try and change Aang, she only tries to support him and his burden. I do not see Mai trying to change Zuko into a Care Bear, but I do think that she will affect Zuko positively without trying to evoke change. A sign of a healthy relationship is one that involves the two people being almost instinctively aware of each other's weak points and do not try and provoke them or call attention to them, but provides the other with their subconscious needs.
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Post by aangryjerk on Jun 26, 2007 7:28:05 GMT -5
^^That's why I've begun to dislike the Zutara ship. I admit for a while I found it appealing, but really it's just about the girl turning a bad boy good. That's never healthy, but it's a common fantasy that young women are prone to. It's not fair to the guy, and the girl usually ends up frustrated and unhappy.
On the other hand, Jin and Mai seem to like Zuko just as he is, or was in Mai's case. It still remains to be seen if she'll still like him as he is now. I think she will though because introducing her crush has to have some future importance to the plot. Even if it's just a shallow crush based on his looks, that's still better than the holier-than-thou-let-me-save-you thing of Zutara.
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tara22
Warrior Sokka
mmmwaa....ouch, my lips
Posts: 764
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Post by tara22 on Jun 26, 2007 13:20:52 GMT -5
Jin may have come by the tea shop on a regular basis, but since Zuko hadn't noticed her before there was no interaction between the two before their date.
It may not have seemed like much, but Zuko and Katara's interaction in the cave was quite positive (before the Zuko and Azula thing). What my point was, is Katara knew who Zuko was and probably had a much better grip on his personality than Jin did, positive at first or not, so Jin really hadn't accepted Zuko for who he was because there was still alot she didn't know about him. Katara accepted him enough to put their past behind them and have a civil talk, even after everything he had done before. They were on equal ground for a short time in the cave, and even though it's a longshot, I'm hoping that Zuko will come to his senses, Katara will be understanding and accepting like she initially was in the cave, and they'll be on equal ground again. (But even I know it's a longshot and I'll probably have to read fanfics for the ending I'd like to see) After he sided with Azula, she certainly had the right to yell at Zuko, I'm glad she did.
As for Ursa, what did Ozai allow her to do as Firelady? Zuko may be a different kind of leader and husband who treats his wife equally. Yes, I did base my assumption of what type of Firelady Mai might be on what we've seen so far. But as little as we know, I still don't think she'll come out having spectacular personality. I like her character the way it is, deadpan funny. I can see Katara standing in front of the FN people giving an amazing motivational speech like she did in Imprisioned. That's the kind of supporting role I mean, because the Firelord will certainly need some support in reshaping the nation, and it's something I can't see Mai pulling out of her hat (yet, anyway).
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Monk
Haru
Posts: 337
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Post by Monk on Jun 26, 2007 14:20:25 GMT -5
^Mai did like Zuko at one time, we'll have to see what happens there. She did like Zuko, and the smile when Zuko was mentioned may either come from embarrassment or lingering affections. Whatever the case, it will be something which will be addressed in the third season, which is thus far more of a confirmation than Zutara. She came by the tea shop on a regular basis and saw him in a casual setting. An avatar-hater? I really did not see much accepting as I did mere acknowledgment of loss. She said that she always pictured his face as the face of the enemy, and after his "betrayal" she will certainly continue to see his face as the enemy. I think you may be confused here. They barely spoke to each other in the cave. Katara did her normal yelling thing and said that the Fire Nation was responsible for the loss of her mother. Then Zuko said that they had something in common. Katara talks some more about the face of the enemy and then Zuko says "my face" while touching his scar. She really did not listen to him, because he barely spoke about anything while in the cave. Yet she did think that the little time of imprisonment together warranted her yelling at Zuko during the fight: "I thought that you had changed!" Again, it is not being set up to be Katara the Great Reformer but Zuko the Great Reformer. If anything, I would be scared to death of Katara as the head of the Fire Nation. As temperamental as Katara can be, I always thought and still think that she would do to the Fire Nation what the Allied Powers did to Germany after World War I. Katara is honestly quite crazy at times; she is very KOS (kill-on-sight) to just about anyone who has ever wronged her in the past (Jet comes to mind). And how much of Mai have we seen at all? And as great and kind as Ursa was, what did she do as Firelady? You seem to be overstating the role in which Katara would play in the reforms of the Fire Nation and completely ignoring or understating the role in which Zuko would play in the Fire Nation reforms.
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tara22
Warrior Sokka
mmmwaa....ouch, my lips
Posts: 764
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Post by tara22 on Jun 26, 2007 15:20:56 GMT -5
^Jin may have come by the tea shop on a regular basis, but since Zuko hadn't noticed her before there was no interaction between the two before their date.
It may not have seemed like much, but Zuko and Katara's interaction in the cave was quite positive (before the Zuko and Azula thing). What my point was, is Katara knew who Zuko was and probably had a much better grip on his personality than Jin did, positive at first or not, so Jin really hadn't accepted Zuko for who he was because there was still alot she didn't know about him. Katara accepted him enough to put their past behind them and have a civil talk, even after everything he had done before. I think it was clear to her that Zuko never hated Aang, his position was forced on him. They were on equal ground for a short time in the cave, and even though it's a longshot, I'm hoping that one day they will be again. (But even I know it's a longshot and I'll probably have to read fanfics for the ending I'd like to see) After he sided with Azula, she certainly had the right to yell at Zuko, I'm glad she did.
As for Ursa, what did Ozai allow her to do as Firelady? Zuko may be a different kind of leader and husband who treats his wife equally.
Yes, I did base my assumption of what type of Firelady Mai might be on what we've seen so far. But as little as we know, I still don't think she'll come out having spectacular personality. I like her character the way it is, deadpan funny.
I can see Katara standing in front of the FN people giving an amazing motivational speech like she did in Imprisioned. That's the kind of supporting role I mean, because the Firelord will certainly need some support in reshaping the nation, and it's something I can't see Mai pulling out of her hat (yet, anyway).
Good Lord, I ramble....sorry!
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Post by aangryjerk on Jun 26, 2007 15:50:40 GMT -5
^^Ursa disappeared before Ozai became firelord, so she could never have been considered a "firelady". I don't believe the term "firelady" has ever been used in the show; it seems to be a concept dreamed up by the fandom. There's as far as I know, no indication that the wife of the firelord has any special title or power. She seems to only be a companion and heir-bearer for the firelord.
I think Zuko will be more that capable of handling the job of firelord eventually, when he gets his various issues sorted out. He'd be wise to have advisors, but not someone who'd overshadow him or try to take the reins herself. He has to be both a leader and a symbol to his people, and publicly allowing his wife to give speeches and make policies would not be an inspiring sight for the people me thinks.
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tara22
Warrior Sokka
mmmwaa....ouch, my lips
Posts: 764
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Post by tara22 on Jun 26, 2007 16:11:11 GMT -5
^ well no, it wouldn't do any good to have someone do things for or instead of him. But Katara is the type of person who would be good in a supporting role, like I said, to the Firelord, that's why I used the 'Imprisioned' scenerio, to show how inspirational words can make a difference in people who had their minds set to accept things the way they were. Offering support and helping I don't think would be overshadowing. There's alot of work to do to mend years of what previous Firelords have done and I think Zuko would need all the help he can get. Of course he'll have his advisors, but as someone else said, Katara has her connections with other kingdom leaders and that could be a helpful thing when trying to create relations between countries.
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Monk
Haru
Posts: 337
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Post by Monk on Jun 26, 2007 16:20:09 GMT -5
The last the world needs is more inspirational Braveheart speeches.
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tara22
Warrior Sokka
mmmwaa....ouch, my lips
Posts: 764
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Post by tara22 on Jun 26, 2007 16:25:46 GMT -5
The last the world needs is more inspirational Braveheart speeches. Why not? it worked, didn't it? Besides, since it's already been used once, and sucessfully, why wouldn't it be an option again?
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Monk
Haru
Posts: 337
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Post by Monk on Jun 26, 2007 17:01:00 GMT -5
The last the world needs is more inspirational Braveheart speeches. Why not? it worked, didn't it? Besides, since it's already been used once, and sucessfully, why wouldn't it be an option again? It only works, because the characters are animated and have no real control over what they happen to find inspiring! But why should it not be used again? Because it is trite, cliche and boring, been there and done that, an over-abused soporific convention, incredibly uninspiring and lackluster, hokey and unimaginative, often monotonous and poorly delievered, and has been done so many times in movies and shows (especially after the film Braveheart, hence the commonly used name for these type of speeches) that it has practically become a joke unto themselves! That is why!
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Post by aangryjerk on Jun 26, 2007 17:29:55 GMT -5
FFFFFRRRREEEEEDDDDOOOOOMMMMM!!!!!! Sorry I couldn't resist.
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tara22
Warrior Sokka
mmmwaa....ouch, my lips
Posts: 764
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Post by tara22 on Jun 26, 2007 20:17:48 GMT -5
How can it be boring and over-abused in this particular show when it's only been in there once so far? And how many of the target audience saw Braveheart to make any kind of connection. Some older viewer may find the thought cliche, but there are other things I find cliche about the show anyway. Sheesh, I didn't mean to insult anybody's sensibilities with the speech thing, it was only meant lightheartedly anyway. And of course we all realize it's an animated show and the characters have no control of situations, but what's the fun of debating and speculating if we all think like that? (thanks to whoever karma'd me )
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Yang Fishy
Wolf Hakoda
Firebending General of the Zutarian Army
all that rises must fall, all that is born must die, all that is gathered will be scattered
Posts: 2,857
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Post by Yang Fishy on Jun 26, 2007 21:18:14 GMT -5
I can see Katara standing in front of the FN people giving an amazing motivational speech like she did in Imprisioned. That's the kind of supporting role I mean, because the Firelord will certainly need some support in reshaping the nation, and it's something I can't see Mai pulling out of her hat (yet, anyway). Before even thinking about the future or ruling the Firenation if in any way the people of the Firenation show signs of wanting the war to finally come to an end and/or have been oppressed by Firelord Ozai, I can see her try to convince them that it is them who really hold the power which the Firelord wields. Although it must be Firelord propaganda which rules the people of the Firenation and make them feel superior to other nations, it can't be that there are some if just a few who want peace or simply want thier sons back from the choas of the battleground. Surely, there are other rebel Firebenders like Jeong Jeong or soldiers like Chey. Perhaps there are moms like Ursa that love their sons and want them to return alive. Chey once said he was the second man to escape from the militia that lived. It almost seems like the FN drafts you and keeps you there against your will. I don't think too many people will be contempt with that, but with no person to inspire/motivate them to fight for change than simply put: nothings gonna happen. If it weren't for Katara those Earthbenders will still be locked away to this day. Who knows if somewhere out there in the Firenation there are people in need of some inspiration... I just don't see Katara fitting into the Fire Nation. Even if Zuko is a drastically different fire lord or tries to drastically change things, 100 years of propaganda and years of a set culture are not going to change over night. I don't see Katara fitting into that in a way that would make it beneficial or easy for Zuko to change anything about his nation (that's assuming he'd change anything other than stopping the war). I don't see her fitting into the Firenation either. That is in the beggining though. It's hard to learn to adapt to different customs, morals, and people especially when their your enemies and I can very well see her putting up a fight at first. However, with the passing of time, she'll come to get used to it even if it's not with a smile at first. Then when the Aang gang ventures deeper into the Firenation there may just be one thing she'll like even if it's something as small as their cuisine Like I once said, Katara can be considered the epitome of her element: Water. Like Iroh described it, the people of the watertribe are capable of adapting to many things. Also water is the element of change. Natrually place water in a container and it will take its form. Place Katara in the Firenation and eventually she'll learn to adapt and bring a new flavor/color to the Firenation since its so dreadfully pale & red...lol jk on the last part Besides, we already know the natural opposite of Water is Fire. It's going to be hard to accept the culture and it's people when it will be so different from her own, but she and Sokka might, eventually. The last the world needs is more inspirational Braveheart speeches. True the world needs to now act upon what they preech but how do you think some will do that? Not everyone is as hyped up or as confident as ever to change the world when its set off balance and push against what seems to be a strong tide. No others need motivation, inspiration, and wisdom. We're all not fortunate to hold all the cards and so with little chance of suceeding as failure, there's gotta be someone who stands up and motivates the others to work with him/her. Really how do you think the great leaders of the past got the men to fight these great battles for them. $$$? As if there was so much to spare. Other than pointing a knife to their neck as some actually did do x.x, like in LOTR the ever so "braveheart inspirational speech" is what got these men off their butts to fight for lord and country. She[Jin] came by the tea shop on a regular basis and saw him in a casual setting. Even so, Jin couldn't have possibly known who Zuko really was: the banished prince of the Firenation. It was all but a shadow and a thought which she loved, if you ask me. He told her he was a juggler from the Earthkingdom circus. That's not who Zuko is at all. We can only guess what her reaction could have been to find out he was lying to her all along about who he really is and why he even in Ba Sing Se. A Firebender also, girls like Jin and Song may or may not be so accpetable. Girls like Mai and Katara however, who know his real name, know he's a Firebender, and know he's a banished prince have more insight on Zuko and who he really is. Well she listened enough to truly feel Zuko's pain of carrying such a burden and going as far as offering to heal his scar. He who was nothing more than an enemy to her eyes a couple of minutes before, does that not make a difference. This does seem to be the theme of Zutara: change. "Katara can change Zuko's coal of a heart into a beautiful diamond." and ""Katara can be a positive influence on the development of the Fire Nation." I do believe Katara could be a positive influence on the Firenation as she has been to the world but I, atleast I, don't think the theme of Zutara is Katara changing Zuko inside out as much as simply learning to honor each others differences and appreciate their similarities in order to share the same planet in peace. (thanks to whoever karma'd me ) Welcome
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