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Post by Amira on Jan 26, 2008 23:25:27 GMT -5
But part of understanding involves likes and dislikes. Part of why I like Kataang and why I root for it is based on beliefs and opinions I have both about it and opposing ships. For me, that is a clearer picture. And yes, by discussing some of the reasons why people don't like Kataang I have in fact changed a few minds, not out of supporting their own ship, but the misconceptions they've had about my ship, i.e. mother/son. Just as I've had Zutarians show me that it is not based on "being hot." There is actually more substance to it than that. But one of the misconceptions shippers who do not support it have is that the main appeal is the "hotness" factor. Demolishing that misconception I think does build bridges. I want to know why people don't like my ship and why it doesn't appeal and I'm not going to hide from those opinions. Of course I love Kataang and I can give you 3000 reasons why. Challenge me though to change some of the stereotypes and misconceptions you have about it though. You might not like Kataang still, but you might come away with a far better understanding of where another shipper comes from by embracing all areas of argument. But I am probably in the minority here in thinking that way cause truthfully if I want a squeeing lovefest for my ship, I'll go hang in the skycastle.
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Airblazer
Warrior Sokka
^My favorite FF6 Character^
Posts: 798
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Post by Airblazer on Jan 26, 2008 23:30:04 GMT -5
Hmm... truthfully, I think it's less important to understand why people don't like *your* particular ship, and more important to see why they like their own. I don't want to know why a person doesn't like Zutara. It's their right and I'm fine with that. I just want to know more about what they love about their own ship, and why it appeals to them. And, when people describe their love for their own ship, it should just be about that - their *own* ship. None other brought into it. If I'm telling you why I love Zutara, I'm not going to throw in why I don't like Kataang or Maiko as much. I'm just going to keep it strictly to Zutara. Ideally, that's the way this should work. But unfortunately, it often doesn't. Doesn't mean I can't try my damndest, though. I agree to what you say when you said that it's more important to see why others like their own ship. (Makes me wonder if there is a thread called: "Why do you like your ship?" Because I think it would be nice if their was such a thread). Anyways, seeing why others like the ships that they do is more important than seeing why they hate your ship. I mean, if you try to find out why they hate your ship, it might just bring out some negative emotions. By knowing why others like the ship that they do would breed understanding about what makes their ship so great to them. I also agree with you when you said that when people describe why they like their ship, they shouldn't bring in others ships in their description. I mean, it wouldn't make sense if I said: "I will be describing why I like Kataang" and then say I don't like Zutara. I mean, if I said I don't like Zutara, it would have nothing to do with my description on why I like Kataang. (NOTE: THIS IS ONLY AN EXAMPLE because I don't hate Zutara). So yeah, I don't hate Zutara but it doesn't mean that I agree with some of the arguments that Zutarians make about my own ship. What I'm trying to say is: even if someone doesn't agree with certain POV's of others in regards to their ship, it doesn't mean that they hate the opposing ship. Oh yeah, did you read one of my previous posts in this thread? I gave you a karma. Just thought I'd let you know that Luthien.
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Post by luthien on Jan 27, 2008 4:45:45 GMT -5
Thanks for the karma - I appreciate it. Amira - I guess the reason I'm not really interested in hearing why people don't like my ship because I've heard those reasons ad infinitum. When it gets to the point where I myself can recite them chapter and verse? I think that's when I've reached my saturation point.
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Post by Amira on Jan 27, 2008 9:06:12 GMT -5
Hmm...I just prefer to get the full picture and have every angle. Perhaps I've just hit the point where the reasons people don't like my ship don't affect me to the point where I'm bothered by it. I had a perfectly lovely discussion with someone on LJ who had stated her reasons for not liking Kataang and we ended up coming away with understanding differences as well as things we were similar on.
Personally, I find opportunities like that - a potential negative turned positive - to be far more satisfying.
Like I said, I could give you 3000 reasons why I love my ship and support it and my fellow Kataangers could do the same, but I guess I'm to the point where it's like say what you want about my ship, it's your opinion, you're entitled to it, and if we can get a good discussion going - great! People say some awful things about my ship - terrible and insulting things, people have taken it into my off-fandom life (long-story) and you know what, it doesn't matter anymore. I'm secure in my appreciation for what I love.
So bring it on. I miss the good old days of page long posts, debates, and discussion. I miss the days where we challenged ideas. GUG and I used to have these wonderful discussions, not even based on canon events, but more on our interpretations of what we liked and didn't like. She was heavily Zutara and Zuko-supporting. I was heavily Kataang and Aang-supporting. And sometimes we came away with understanding, sometimes we just had to agree to disagree. But the mutual respect was always there and neither one of us ever took offense to what the other was saying.
Things are changing in the series, DoBS certainly showed that and what times that will bring! Common ground and respect does not mean that we should be afraid to explore differences, to challenge ourselves. Because common ground can come from anywhere.
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Post by luthien on Jan 27, 2008 10:39:16 GMT -5
I suppose that my frustration comes from the fact that we don't have new episodes to talk about, so everything we can talk about has been hashed and re-hashed to the point where the same arguments are just being repackaged. When we can publicly talk about "The Western Air Temple" and "The Firebending Masters," I guess that will change. But to have people sit around at this stage and talk about why they don't like a particular ship - I just don't see the point. Too much unnecessary drama. If it's a legitimate debate, then that's fine. But too often (far too often) it devolves into "I'm right, you're wrong," and then it just gets frustrating. I mean, no offense Amira - but I know why you don't like Zutara and why you don't like Zuko. So I don't see what's to be gained if I ask you that question again. Now, maybe if we see an influx of people new to the fandom, that would work - because they haven't been in here and been through all the other threads. But for those of us who have, at this point, it's all the same territory being trod endlessly, and it gets a bit old and tiring. I'm just saying, maybe there's a new approach to be had out there. I'm not sure what it is, but there needs to be a fresh spin on things. ETA: I realize the above made me seem all old and crochety (and I suppose I am). I love a good, rip-roaring, honest debate. But too often around here insults are hurled and it drives people away, so that only a few are left to carry the torch on either side. A lot of Zutarians - good Zutarians, with valid points to make - have just ditched the RB altogether because they feel they're banging their heads against the wall. A lot of Maikos are the same way. Our RB is actually diminishing because of this, and it makes me sad. Debate is one thing, but a lot of people feel they're under fire.
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Post by Amira on Jan 27, 2008 11:19:17 GMT -5
Eh, I suppose I'm interested in all forms of discussion and don't really feel the need to shy away from anything - positive or negative. And sometimes revisiting old things brings new light and new focus and can in fact change existing ideas and opinions and can affect future discussion and topics.
But if people are not willing to do that then we are effectively closing ourselves off.
I mean you just summarily dismissed my opinions as "I know how you feel about..." without first even finding out if any of that is true and in some ways that is far more distancing than any "I don't like such and such" comment. Why? Because with that sentence you effectively made me feel that you neither care about what I think, nor do you care to even explore if it is still 100% accurate. I still might not like Zuko particularly, but I just might have gained some new perspective and not everything might be so negatively inclined.
And how is that bridging any sort of common ground or mutual respect if we just chalk it up to: "I know what you think..." People might surprise you.
I mean, I've lurked everywhere, gotten into loads of discussions, learned things about my opinions and that of others. I lurk in major LJ Zutara communities and occasionally participate, I've had numerous discussions on DevArt with people of opposing ships and have found out that there are many things we do have in common with regards to Avatar and canon that I would not have known if I hadn't engaged them. And yes the old ideas and opinions and arguments are there and sometimes don't change much.
But who cares. It's all a learning experience.
EDIT: And in terms of the debates being kept friendly and nice, that is where staff and posters have to work together. And people also need to not view every negative as an insult. Both sides have become so uber-sensitive it isn't funny. And perhaps it has taken me getting my personal email accounts filled with "Kataang is pedo" comments and sitting on the phone for an hour trying to explain to my host's tech guy that it was all over a cartoon so they wouldn't TOS me that has made me realize that most of what's said isn't all that bad in comparison and it's all in how much we let it get to us.
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Post by luthien on Jan 27, 2008 11:38:53 GMT -5
Amira, I apologize if I made you feel as though I were dismissing your opinion. That's not the case at all - in fact, it's quite the opposite. Though I admit I worded it in not the best way, so I'm definitely sorry. You're right, there is the possibility your opinion has changed, since a person's thoughts on a particular subject can change from day to day. I based my assumption on prior knowledge, which now might be far from accurate. You make a good point. I just think - I'm not quite sure how to articulate it, I'm failing at properly putting it into words - people need to approach this with an open heart and mind, and I don't see that often. Perhaps I've lost my faith, to a certain extent, in people's ability to see things from another point of view. It just seems so often to descend into negativity. I open my mind to the possibility of Kataang. I see what others like in the ship and I understand, and I can sit to the side and say, "You know what? That *does* work, and I see what they see." I've done it in the past. I don't hate Kataang (in fact, I find it appealing, and know why others would feel that way, too) - I just happen to prefer Zutara. But so often that same courtesy is not extended my way. I've been told (directly or indirectly) that I'm flat-out wrong, misinformed, that my opinion doesn't matter, or that people are sick of hearing the point I'm making, regardless of its validity. They just don't want to hear it. And that's where the frustration lies. I see no sense in approaching someone whose mind is closed. My time can be spent better elsewhere. ETA: I know a lot of what I say sounds like pie in the sky, let's all get together and hug stuff. And I don't mean to say that we have to curb all our opinions and thoughts, it's just... would it kill people to be nicer? I spend my whole day doing nothing but writing about how people hurt, kill, betray, and belittle each other. I guess I crave harmony.
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Post by Amira on Jan 27, 2008 11:46:41 GMT -5
You don't know if one's mind is truly closed unless you yourself are open to exploring it.
LOL...Amira the Fortune Cookie
I was in a conversation the other day with a girl I know who is a die-hard Zutarian. In fact she abhors the idea of Kataang. But I never would have known that this girl finds the "Katara is too much like Aang's mother" argument stupid and a poor reflection of Zutarian thinking (her words, not mine) if I hadn't talked with her in the first place.
Kind of neat to find out stuff like that. Old perceptions and prejudices broken down in some ways.
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Post by luthien on Jan 27, 2008 11:52:56 GMT -5
That sounds like something Iroh would say! Ok... I'm willing to take the plunge. But if someone gets insulting, I'm gonna have to lay down some smack (not literally, but you know what I mean).
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Post by Amira on Jan 27, 2008 11:55:13 GMT -5
Well at least let the admin throw a few warning bars out before getting too smack-downish. LOL I'm open to ideas and suggestions for the RB on activities you'd all like or discussion topics. Perhaps if people took initiative to create some fun and engaging things or at least approach me and other staff. I might not be able to implement every suggestion or idea, but I do listen as well as keep things stored for potential future use.
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Post by luthien on Jan 27, 2008 12:12:37 GMT -5
What do you think of thread that would sort of serve as a catch-all for ideas? I know that this thread sort of functions in that capacity, but I mean a fresh thread, that solicits ideas from all shippers about how to best move forward? No actually shipping would be discussed there, we'd just hammer out some new activities that help us get to know our fellow shippers. I really do think there's common ground to be had - heck, we're all fans of "Avatar," aren't we? - and I think the more ideas tossed into the pot, the better the chance is that we'll find some gems and can move forward.
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Post by Amira on Jan 27, 2008 12:14:45 GMT -5
An RB idea thread is a good idea. And would serve as a centralized place that myself and the RB staff can go rather than attempting to communicate through PMs. I could comment directly on the suggestions, people could see what has been suggested and give opinions.
We'd just need to watch that it doesn't get spammy.
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