Post by Zenjamin on Jan 24, 2008 19:45:48 GMT -5
Hello, by now most of you know of the voice-over commentary that M&B did for the DOBS kiss.
apparently it produced allot of bashing on other forums, here is has been verry minimal for which I am proud. but because one of the admins feared/thought it was heading in that direction here, he/she locked the thread and it was eaten by proboards.
after which, myself and a zutaran continued the conversation where we left off. and the results with my own thinking were pretty inspiring.
we ended up coming to common ground and gaining respect for eachother and eachothers ship.
Bashing, and disrespect gets so much attention, that it can often overshadow the better side of the fandom.
So im gonna copy/paste the conversation we had to show that people of opposing ships can not only interact peacefully, but logically talk about their ships so that each can come to better accept and understand eachothers ship in light of new evidence.
(if you havent seen the link i referenced)
Zenjamin:
my response to your post in that thread:
"No, I think there has been a sort of misunderstanding here.
casual zutarans and "CANNON!Zutarans" are two completely different things.
M&B in that commentary did say that they loved the passion they have invoked within the zutaran community, even if they hinted quite strongly that cannon zutara wasnt going to happen and that they supported kataang.
luthien, i have no doubt that you are the product of M&B. Exactly what they want. They are not going to change their original plans for you, but they are glad of all the fans that they inspire, even if they were not going to incorporate fannon into cannon.
I agree with much of what you said in your mini rant above, i do think you should enjoy your ship. its the people who write mini books for all the reasons cannon-romantic-zutara will happen that M, B, and myself just dont understand.
but I do disagree that M&B are to be held responsible for the birth of romantic zutara.
they HAD to put katara and zuko in the same scenes, they are forshadowing a future friendship/alliance.
and the only reason I see for the fans to have made the jump from platonic zutara to romantic zutara was that zuko was an older hotter guy (well, at least he was "hot" in S1;))
and the only reason zuko was the older buff one in S1 was because he was the "villain" then.
and they have toned down zukos hottness since S1.
really, as most of the romantic zutarans are 16.5 year old girls, I think this is the reason that zutara made the jump from platonic to romantic with so much support.
however, you are an exception luthien, I know your experience with your husband and how valid/deep your reasons are.
anyways, it seems to me that M&B didnt see the romantic part coming, but now that they realize the hottness of zuko, they understand the reason for how the romantic zutara fandom started and got so big.
they see no reason to kill the fandom, they like the passion. even if it was born from reasons of age of the characters which were done purely for marketing reasons and story reasons, but not romantic reasons.
luthien:
Zenjamin:
luthien:
Zenjamin:
luthien:
Just to clarify, this thread is mainly meant to discuss our ability to have this kind of "common ground" discussion.
I told myself once while I was talking to luthien that i was partially humoring her, and perhaps she was thinking the same thing.
but when all was said and done, what we had was a much more logical and inclusive "common ground" discussion then if we had just been using our emotions to defend our ship.
P.S.
I think this thread could be a good step in the right direction. let your emotions ignore the hate/bashing, and let your logic transform it into something your opponent can work with on common ground like luthien did for me...
its about having the humility to suspend disbelief, and listen to another fan with as much respect as you would someone of your own ship.
but if you bring hate/bashing/disrespect into this thread, [an admin] will close this thread and I will eat the kitten... And I actually love kittys. So dont make me do it. ill swallow them whole if i have to... in fact ill make that a rule.
Every time you promote bashing, Zenjamin eats a kitten.
apparently it produced allot of bashing on other forums, here is has been verry minimal for which I am proud. but because one of the admins feared/thought it was heading in that direction here, he/she locked the thread and it was eaten by proboards.
after which, myself and a zutaran continued the conversation where we left off. and the results with my own thinking were pretty inspiring.
we ended up coming to common ground and gaining respect for eachother and eachothers ship.
Bashing, and disrespect gets so much attention, that it can often overshadow the better side of the fandom.
So im gonna copy/paste the conversation we had to show that people of opposing ships can not only interact peacefully, but logically talk about their ships so that each can come to better accept and understand eachothers ship in light of new evidence.
(if you havent seen the link i referenced)
Zenjamin:
my response to your post in that thread:
"No, I think there has been a sort of misunderstanding here.
casual zutarans and "CANNON!Zutarans" are two completely different things.
M&B in that commentary did say that they loved the passion they have invoked within the zutaran community, even if they hinted quite strongly that cannon zutara wasnt going to happen and that they supported kataang.
luthien, i have no doubt that you are the product of M&B. Exactly what they want. They are not going to change their original plans for you, but they are glad of all the fans that they inspire, even if they were not going to incorporate fannon into cannon.
I agree with much of what you said in your mini rant above, i do think you should enjoy your ship. its the people who write mini books for all the reasons cannon-romantic-zutara will happen that M, B, and myself just dont understand.
but I do disagree that M&B are to be held responsible for the birth of romantic zutara.
they HAD to put katara and zuko in the same scenes, they are forshadowing a future friendship/alliance.
and the only reason I see for the fans to have made the jump from platonic zutara to romantic zutara was that zuko was an older hotter guy (well, at least he was "hot" in S1;))
and the only reason zuko was the older buff one in S1 was because he was the "villain" then.
and they have toned down zukos hottness since S1.
really, as most of the romantic zutarans are 16.5 year old girls, I think this is the reason that zutara made the jump from platonic to romantic with so much support.
however, you are an exception luthien, I know your experience with your husband and how valid/deep your reasons are.
anyways, it seems to me that M&B didnt see the romantic part coming, but now that they realize the hottness of zuko, they understand the reason for how the romantic zutara fandom started and got so big.
they see no reason to kill the fandom, they like the passion. even if it was born from reasons of age of the characters which were done purely for marketing reasons and story reasons, but not romantic reasons.
luthien:
Thanks for the response and the *karma* Zen. 
I agree with you, I think the thread was locked prematurely, since I think we really were getting somewhere and people from both sides were making valid observations. But I still have to disagree that Mike & Bryan were blown away that people would come to the conclusion of romantic Zutara. It's a conclusion that can be drawn logically by certain people. I know it's not going to happen in the show, but since many rational, educated people have drawn the same conclusion as I have, *something* has to be there. I mean, I've got a great imagination, but it's not that good. 
My mother - who's 56 years old, has a master's degree, has traveled the country, and works in a library - saw Zutara in the first episode she watched. How can one see the Oma and Shu tale and not see at least a glimmer of Zutara? I know that "TCoTL" is one of the most romantic Kataang episodes, and we know that the story of Oma and Shu is there primarily to illustrate the power of love, but if a person draws Zutara from that, I don't think they should be written off as a kook. It's a tale of two people - from two opposing sides of a war - one clothed in red, the other clothed in blue (and we know the Water Tribes wear pretty much all blue, and the Fire Nation pretty much all red), even though they're in the Earth Kingdom - whose unity helped end a war. I mean, c'mon. Seeing Zutara in that isn't crazy - *especially* since the tale of Oma and Shu is told in a cave dotted with glowing green crystals, and Zuko and Katara's most intimate scene together occurs in the same kind of cave. I'm not saying their interaction was romantic - clearly it was not - but it was intimate. Zuko doesn't just let anyone touch his scar, look how he batted Song's hand away when she tried to empathize. But the touching of the scar, along with Zuko's silent acceptance of Katara's offer of help, and the closing of his eyes, is an intimate moment.
Again, I'm not saying Zutara will happen. But isn't it the slightest bit possible that Mike and Bryan might have put a small subtext in there just to add a little spice to Kataang? I mean heck - even freakin' Aang was jealous - I think there's a reason they made his reaction so dramatic. He's a nice kid, but he looked at Zuko like he looked at Jet, meaning he saw Zuko, at least in that instant, as a romantic threat.
All I'm saying is that just enough Zutara is in the show to make Kataang a bit of a more mercurial factor. M&B love Kataang, but it appears they don't want people to think it's a foregone conclusion (the ambiguity of Katara's reaction to the kiss, the "powerful bender" vagueness from Aunt Wu, the Avatar State roadblock). I'm just saying, I really highly doubt M&B were as pole-axed by this development as they seem.
And I disagree that the primary reason many Zutarians put the pair together is because Zuko's "hot." Actually, a lot of fangirls find Zuko infinitely hotter *now* that he has hair and has more of a heart than when he was bald, armored up, and mean. Also, the average Kataang fan is also 16.5. There's no proof Zutarians are younger, in fact, from my own independent observation, many Zutarians skew older, and several people with children are included among their ranks.
You're getting *karma* from me, too - for defending the thread and for being so dang nice to me.
I agree with you, I think the thread was locked prematurely, since I think we really were getting somewhere and people from both sides were making valid observations. But I still have to disagree that Mike & Bryan were blown away that people would come to the conclusion of romantic Zutara. It's a conclusion that can be drawn logically by certain people. I know it's not going to happen in the show, but since many rational, educated people have drawn the same conclusion as I have, *something* has to be there. I mean, I've got a great imagination, but it's not that good. 
My mother - who's 56 years old, has a master's degree, has traveled the country, and works in a library - saw Zutara in the first episode she watched. How can one see the Oma and Shu tale and not see at least a glimmer of Zutara? I know that "TCoTL" is one of the most romantic Kataang episodes, and we know that the story of Oma and Shu is there primarily to illustrate the power of love, but if a person draws Zutara from that, I don't think they should be written off as a kook. It's a tale of two people - from two opposing sides of a war - one clothed in red, the other clothed in blue (and we know the Water Tribes wear pretty much all blue, and the Fire Nation pretty much all red), even though they're in the Earth Kingdom - whose unity helped end a war. I mean, c'mon. Seeing Zutara in that isn't crazy - *especially* since the tale of Oma and Shu is told in a cave dotted with glowing green crystals, and Zuko and Katara's most intimate scene together occurs in the same kind of cave. I'm not saying their interaction was romantic - clearly it was not - but it was intimate. Zuko doesn't just let anyone touch his scar, look how he batted Song's hand away when she tried to empathize. But the touching of the scar, along with Zuko's silent acceptance of Katara's offer of help, and the closing of his eyes, is an intimate moment. Again, I'm not saying Zutara will happen. But isn't it the slightest bit possible that Mike and Bryan might have put a small subtext in there just to add a little spice to Kataang? I mean heck - even freakin' Aang was jealous - I think there's a reason they made his reaction so dramatic. He's a nice kid, but he looked at Zuko like he looked at Jet, meaning he saw Zuko, at least in that instant, as a romantic threat.
All I'm saying is that just enough Zutara is in the show to make Kataang a bit of a more mercurial factor. M&B love Kataang, but it appears they don't want people to think it's a foregone conclusion (the ambiguity of Katara's reaction to the kiss, the "powerful bender" vagueness from Aunt Wu, the Avatar State roadblock). I'm just saying, I really highly doubt M&B were as pole-axed by this development as they seem.
And I disagree that the primary reason many Zutarians put the pair together is because Zuko's "hot." Actually, a lot of fangirls find Zuko infinitely hotter *now* that he has hair and has more of a heart than when he was bald, armored up, and mean. Also, the average Kataang fan is also 16.5. There's no proof Zutarians are younger, in fact, from my own independent observation, many Zutarians skew older, and several people with children are included among their ranks.
You're getting *karma* from me, too - for defending the thread and for being so dang nice to me.
Zenjamin:
ill respond later, because I will be verry busy today, but thats another thought provoking and karma worthy post. I hadnt noticed the that oma and shu were wearing read and blue... humm. and that commentary has shown that M&B have become more aware of zutara/kataang fandom. they likely could have added in some subtle... dammit, this is new thinking for me... and ive already talked too much and am late for class.
(but i did do a mini-statistical study on the "kataang/zutara by age group, and found that, at least on the DH, kataangers were older by about 1.4 years... at least i think thats how it turned out.)
(but i did do a mini-statistical study on the "kataang/zutara by age group, and found that, at least on the DH, kataangers were older by about 1.4 years... at least i think thats how it turned out.)
luthien:
Ah, ok - that's where the number comes from. Though I would say if you checked other areas, the numbers would change - DH in general is a pretty young place. *cough*is an old lady among youngins*cough*
Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying Zutara's going to happen because Kataang is the direction they're headed, but I think they've put in hints of it just to make things interesting. The Oma and Shu thing was particularly striking because of the clothing they were wearing, and the location (in relation to the Crossroads of Destiny). I mean - two people, from opposing sides, coming together in understanding in a cave filled with green glowing crystals happened in both "TCoTL" and "TCoD." I'm just saying I think Mike & Bryan might be adding just another layer to their multi-layered story, and adding a little more intrigue to Kataang.
Though I would say if you checked other areas, the numbers would change - DH in general is a pretty young place. *cough*is an old lady among youngins*cough*Yeah, I mean, I'm not saying Zutara's going to happen because Kataang is the direction they're headed, but I think they've put in hints of it just to make things interesting. The Oma and Shu thing was particularly striking because of the clothing they were wearing, and the location (in relation to the Crossroads of Destiny). I mean - two people, from opposing sides, coming together in understanding in a cave filled with green glowing crystals happened in both "TCoTL" and "TCoD." I'm just saying I think Mike & Bryan might be adding just another layer to their multi-layered story, and adding a little more intrigue to Kataang.
Zenjamin:
Well, I went to class expecting to quote your post point by point with a long response. but i find myself partially agreeing with what you said.
both in the commentary and it the past interview if have brought up, M&B have said that, while they wont alter the main story/romance, they Love the passion and community that fandom shipping has inspired. (in so many words.)
combine that with the things you highlighted, and it is not at all irrational to think that M&B fanned the flames of the zutara fandom.
things like the color of the oma/shu clothes may seem so little that they couldnt be meant for an intentional reaction by the fans. but M&B have added plenty of small little things to the show like that. remember the small stone monkey that keeps showing up?
or what about this?
minor 313 spoiler
If M&B have added things like that, and they like the passion or even "tenacity" of the fandom. its not too hard to accept that they might have added some minor zutara symbolism.
But I also agree that It is done, in part, to add some spice or doubt to the kataang community. perhaps the jealous look aang gave katara plus the way he seemed to respect zuko in 313 could be brought up again? perhaps aang sees zuko and katara comming to not want to kill eachother and makes the wrong conclusion, which forces katara to reveal all of her feelings about DOBS to aang?
I want to clarify, that kataang will happen because its foreshadowing has been done out in the open, and been made obvious to everyone, including the casual viewer. and M&Bs possible involvement with fannon zutara is like a secondary hobby.
I have always said that M&B have a purpose for everything they have put in the show... and I dont yet have an alternative explanation for the little things you mentioned... though im not really determined to.
But while I see the possibility of M&B fanning the flames of the fandom, they did not lay the kindling or strike a spark.
that started happening within the fandom around the second episode... almost every fannon ship exists, just because it can. and it started to get big in S1 because of their age similarities and thay were both the "hot ones"
M&B wouldnt have gotten involved with the fannon until it got big enough to grab their attention.
well, thats me playing devil's advocate against myself... kind of.
also, i was wondering if i could have your permission to repost this conversation. either to another kataanger(s) or to Amiria.
too many people think that a middle ground is impossible to reach and that shipping wars are an inevitable eventuality...
both in the commentary and it the past interview if have brought up, M&B have said that, while they wont alter the main story/romance, they Love the passion and community that fandom shipping has inspired. (in so many words.)
combine that with the things you highlighted, and it is not at all irrational to think that M&B fanned the flames of the zutara fandom.
things like the color of the oma/shu clothes may seem so little that they couldnt be meant for an intentional reaction by the fans. but M&B have added plenty of small little things to the show like that. remember the small stone monkey that keeps showing up?
or what about this?
minor 313 spoiler
If M&B have added things like that, and they like the passion or even "tenacity" of the fandom. its not too hard to accept that they might have added some minor zutara symbolism.
But I also agree that It is done, in part, to add some spice or doubt to the kataang community. perhaps the jealous look aang gave katara plus the way he seemed to respect zuko in 313 could be brought up again? perhaps aang sees zuko and katara comming to not want to kill eachother and makes the wrong conclusion, which forces katara to reveal all of her feelings about DOBS to aang?
I want to clarify, that kataang will happen because its foreshadowing has been done out in the open, and been made obvious to everyone, including the casual viewer. and M&Bs possible involvement with fannon zutara is like a secondary hobby.
I have always said that M&B have a purpose for everything they have put in the show... and I dont yet have an alternative explanation for the little things you mentioned... though im not really determined to.
But while I see the possibility of M&B fanning the flames of the fandom, they did not lay the kindling or strike a spark.
that started happening within the fandom around the second episode... almost every fannon ship exists, just because it can. and it started to get big in S1 because of their age similarities and thay were both the "hot ones"
M&B wouldnt have gotten involved with the fannon until it got big enough to grab their attention.
well, thats me playing devil's advocate against myself... kind of.
also, i was wondering if i could have your permission to repost this conversation. either to another kataanger(s) or to Amiria.
too many people think that a middle ground is impossible to reach and that shipping wars are an inevitable eventuality...
luthien:
I'm cool with that... I really think that, despite shipping differences, the ultimate truth is that we're all fans of the show as a whole, and our commonalities should make us come together more than our differences drive us apart.
Just to clarify, this thread is mainly meant to discuss our ability to have this kind of "common ground" discussion.
I told myself once while I was talking to luthien that i was partially humoring her, and perhaps she was thinking the same thing.
but when all was said and done, what we had was a much more logical and inclusive "common ground" discussion then if we had just been using our emotions to defend our ship.
P.S.
I think this thread could be a good step in the right direction. let your emotions ignore the hate/bashing, and let your logic transform it into something your opponent can work with on common ground like luthien did for me...
its about having the humility to suspend disbelief, and listen to another fan with as much respect as you would someone of your own ship.
but if you bring hate/bashing/disrespect into this thread, [an admin] will close this thread and I will eat the kitten... And I actually love kittys. So dont make me do it. ill swallow them whole if i have to... in fact ill make that a rule.
Every time you promote bashing, Zenjamin eats a kitten.
