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Post by Karma Monster on Jan 20, 2007 12:56:59 GMT -5
Well........many people have said that the spirit girl resembled katara but I strongly disagree. I went to the nick.com forum for kicks and some people still think that the swamp girl was Katara.
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arturo
Toph
Dont Mess With Her!
Posts: 174
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Post by arturo on Jan 20, 2007 13:34:30 GMT -5
After this lengthy debate I have a strong feeling that in the third season Katara will have to say bye bye to the show. Her elimination is a neccesity if Aang is to ever open the last Chakra and by that progress his evolution to complete control of the Avatar state (thus defeating the fire lord). In other words: If the story is to continue towards a happy(at least semi-happy) ending then Katara has to disapear from the picture( even though I'm really attached to her and all). But, maybe Aang will finally learn to control his feelings towards her(in which I strongly doubt), then it could turn out differently. "I hear angry Kataang supporters replies zipping by"
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Post by lunauc on Jan 20, 2007 13:36:21 GMT -5
Well........many people have said that the spirit girl resembled katara but I strongly disagree. I went to the nick.com forum for kicks and some people still think that the swamp girl was Katara. Which swamp girl? Of you mean the vision of Toph Aang chased in the Swamp I might have to beat my head against a wall. If you mean the face of the girl Koh showed Aang, I can begrudgingly allow them their fantasies. Though deciding that a random dark haired girl's face represents Katara is projecting their own desires in my opinion. In the swamp, the only way the spirit girl being Katara idea comes to mind is that the chase ends with him running into Katara, though I have an interesting theory about that as well, which seemed too small and insignificant to to bring up earlier. In SotN the chase with the orb ends once Aang runs into Roku's image. In the Swamp the chase with Toph ends when he runs into Katara, literally. Both represent an older advisory figure who helps him find his way through life.
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Post by Karma Monster on Jan 20, 2007 13:41:12 GMT -5
^ well where else could anyone possibly get the idea of Katara being the swamp girl?I beat my head on the wall when I saw what they meant by Katara being the girl Aang chased. And I acutally have a mini theory. but it's complicated.......
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Post by lunauc on Jan 20, 2007 15:37:19 GMT -5
^Well Bitter, this is the place for wild inane Taang theories. Feel free to lend your thoughts. ;D
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Post by machina on Jan 20, 2007 19:50:16 GMT -5
After this lengthy debate I have a strong feeling that in the third season Katara will have to say bye bye to the show. Her elimination is a neccesity if Aang is to ever open the last Chakra and by that progress his evolution to complete control of the Avatar state (thus defeating the fire lord). Sadly, I can see a certain pattern leaning this way already where the storyline is concerned. Katara is the love that came in to replace the love of Gyatso and the other Air Nomads (and we know what happened to them). Aang also ran away prior the demise of the Air Nomads. He ran away again in "The Guru". Lots of parallels here. Did the consequence of Aang's decision in "The Guru" reach it's climax in "The Crossroads of Destiny" or will the ramifications of that choice still reverberate into season three? Honestly, I don't think we've seen the end of it yet... and I'd tend to agree with you and I do think Katara will be going bye bye (although I'm not so sure about death. It's a possibility, but she could merely be captured or simply be separated from the group). I also do think Aang depends on Katara just a bit too much (proven to his utter detriment imo, in "The Crossroads of Destiny"). She's always there to pick him up after he falls or makes some mistake. It would open a lot of intriguing dramatic doors if that perpetual support system was no longer there for him. He'd be forced to cope on his own, take responsability for his actions (and Avatar State). The optimist in me prefers to think he could deal and move on, maybe lean on others for a new (different) kind of support (as per the topic, Toph would then became Aang's strongest feminine presence in his life). Would that other support be enough to help/save him? If we're talking Toph, Toph's method of teaching/guiding Aang is, quite literally, forcing him to face his own demons and overcome them, no matter how painful - or sometimes dangerous ( ornery giant Sabretooth Moose Lion kind of dangerous, of course that thing was the fairly obvious metaphor for Aang's block in Earthbending) - which functioned for compelling the earthbender out of him... but would that support help him cope through the, what's likely to be, considerably difficult times of the Fire Book? If Katara weren't there, I'd like to think it would, but only time will tell. Then there's the pessimist wondering if he wouldn't be able to deal with it and either dies flat-out (not likely since that wouldn't happen until the end of the series for narrative and dramatic reasons) or falls into an abyss of despair and darkness. Those monomyth heroes tend to have a real, viable temptation of the darkside at some point or another. It wouldn't surprise me at all that temptation falls somewhere in the Fire Book. Aang having to face his own Shadow and, hopefully, eventually overcome it. Just like he stood up against the Sabretooth Moose Lion.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jan 20, 2007 20:08:36 GMT -5
If Aang can't be with Katara, that means he can't be with Toph either. Or any girl, for that matter. Or else the Avatar State would get gummed up again.
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Post by machina on Jan 20, 2007 20:32:35 GMT -5
I wasn't really lingering on the notion of Toph as "Earthly attachment", just another kind of support system for Aang. One, in this case, that instead of being a crutch for Aang to perpetual lean on and save him from himself, a support that compels him to stand on his own two feet. Face down the Sabretooth Moose Lion and come out stronger for it.
Of course, the theory in the first post implies the possibility of something deeper, a spiritual connection, between Toph and Aang. Possibly not necessarily limited to the confines of "Earthly attachment".
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Post by lunauc on Jan 20, 2007 21:00:12 GMT -5
Yeah... I don't really think Katara is "standing in his way" per se. Yes, she coddles him, but it's really what's in Aang's head which is the problem. He is the one who has to change himself if he's going to gain the power he needs to defeat the Fire Nation. And that necessary power might not even be opening the last chakra and controlling the Avatar State. But whether he does or not, the lesson still holds true. He has to learn to let go if he's going to gain balance. And that does not mean letting go of his feelings or abandoning the feelings of others. It is accepting that you are your own entity and have no claim to anything else beyond the desires you have toward them and the desires they have toward you. The desires can be mutual as in the case of mutual love, or completely one side. But to accept that you have no possession over others and to accept that you may not gain things you desire is part of growing up. Strive toward what you wish. Be happy with what you get. Never regret what you have lost. These are the ideals of "letting go". What Aang tried to do in the final fight in CoD was to purge himself of love. This is wrong. He was backed into a corner and thought it was the only thing he could do, so he tried an impossible action which was destined to fail. It is not Katara which is the problem, but Aang's consuming obsession with her. But she is more than just a childish crush, in the sense that he relies on her as a safety zone. The same way he often looks to the spirit of Roku for advice on the Avatar state and what he should do when he is unsure himself, he rushes to Katara whenever he needs attention or consolation, like a child to its mother. You can't really spite a 12 year old child for not being ready to give up that parental figure, even if he does have an Oedipal complex. I don't see Katara getting killed off from the show either, mostly because she is the lead heroine, and this is primarily a kids' show. But I could see the separation theory coming to pass. Either the group is split up on the run, or Katara is captured or they have to become more deeply immersed in the war effort and thus need to split up for long periods, forcing Aang to work things out with out Katara there to support him. If he can get through it all and come away with the realization that he can get through life without her constant support, it might make him a bit stronger.
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Post by waterfire (I am back!!!) on Jan 20, 2007 21:25:10 GMT -5
I have to agree with you.
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Post by lunauc on Jan 20, 2007 21:34:24 GMT -5
I have to agree with you. Thank you. Now bow down to my great wisdom. For I am the one true Voice of Reason![.... ...... Too much?
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Post by machina on Jan 20, 2007 22:14:41 GMT -5
it's really what's in Aang's head which is the problem.... ....I could see the separation theory coming to pass. Either the group is split up on the run, or Katara is captured or they have to become more deeply immersed in the war effort and thus need to split up for long periods, forcing Aang to work things out with out Katara there to support him. Thus why, for Aang's sake (and trying to give the kid some kind of a break since I do foresee the Fire Book being hard enough on him), I do see Katara separating from the group in one way or another. With her there, it would just make it too hard for him to try to let his obsessive particular attachment of her go or, imo, at least really come to terms with what it's like without her support. After all, it is only Aang, as Avatar, that can bring balance to the world. The hero always makes that final confrontation alone. Hell, I could already see at least one very possible separation from the team in that I could very easily see Sokka wanting to separate to search for Suki and the missing Kyoshi Warriors if Aang is suddenly pulled into some other commitment or responsability (which is also a very real possibility considering he's Avatar. Trying to win back Ba Sing Se / the Earth Kingdom and/or finding a firebending teacher to name two pressing issues). Sokka joining his father (which he's been wanting to do since he was 8) or getting together a small band of water tribe warriors. If Sokka does decide to go search for Suki separately, this could be Katara's option in separating herself from Aang for his (and the world's) sake. No argument from me there. It's Aang - not Pathik - who links Katara as an "Earthly attachment" (and thus a detriment to, in this case, the opening of the Crown Chakra). Before Pathik tells him this is what he has to let go of. Although it's interesting to consider the possibility of the Avatar having gone through the process of the chakra openings before. Maybe many times before. Did some part of Aang - allbeit a very deep unconscious part - already know what the block to the seventh chakra was/is? This unconscious part of himself as Avatar linking that singular attachment to Katara to this block? Thus some deep part of Aang himself realizes the detriment of his attachment to Katara and that part of himself is trying to tell him this - voiced through Guru Pathik - yet Aang's conscious self (who obviously doesn't understand what it truly means to be Avatar yet) doesn't only not understand what Pathik is telling him, but he doesn't understand himself yet. This could be very symbolic of not only Aang's struggle to come to terms with his destiny as Avatar, but it can be likened to a child's confusing, sometimes frightening, struggle in the process of growing up (as "Avatar" almost above all the fantastical adventure and spiritual metaphor is, fundamentally, a coming-of-age story. Just like almost every story that features children and teens as protagonists).
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Post by lunauc on Jan 21, 2007 0:37:21 GMT -5
After all, it is only Aang, as Avatar, that can bring balance to the world. The hero always makes that final confrontation alone. Not necessarily. There is another type of "chosen one" story ending which comes up often. Alternatively the chosen one becomes a symbol the people rally around and rise up to fight for themselves. Though usually it is still the main hero who has the final climactic battle. This ending may come around if Azula's cheap shot did sever Aang's connection to the Avatar state. Suddenly ideas of "fated hero" and "world's last hope" go out the window, and they have to find a whole new way to achieve their goals. I doubt something that extreme would happen, but Aang doesn't necessarily have to go it all alone. Hell, I could already see at least one very possible separation from the team in that I could very easily see Sokka wanting to separate to search for Suki and the missing Kyoshi Warriors if Aang is suddenly pulled into some other commitment or responsability (which is also a very real possibility considering he's Avatar. Trying to win back Ba Sing Se / the Earth Kingdom and/or finding a firebending teacher to name two pressing issues). Sokka joining his father (which he's been wanting to do since he was 8) or getting together a small band of water tribe warriors. If Sokka does decide to go search for Suki separately, this could be Katara's option in separating herself from Aang for his (and the world's) sake. That is possible. Yet the only reason I can see her choosing to split from Aang is if she heard why he couldn't open the last chakra and decided for him that it would be best that she leave. Still though, I don't think she'd leave him, or even him and Toph, alone, just on the principle of not wanting to abandon children on this harsh quest alone. Not to mention all that she herself has invested into this journey to save the world. Perhaps she would let him down easy, in hopes of helping him focus on what she feels is really important. But I doubt she'd leave. Although it's interesting to consider the possibility of the Avatar having gone through the process of the chakra openings before. Maybe many times before. Did some part of Aang - allbeit a very deep unconscious part - already know what the block to the seventh chakra was/is? This unconscious part of himself as Avatar linking that singular attachment to Katara to this block? Thus some deep part of Aang himself realizes the detriment of his attachment to Katara and that part of himself is trying to tell him this - voiced through Guru Pathik - yet Aang's conscious self (who obviously doesn't understand what it truly means to be Avatar yet) doesn't only not understand what Pathik is telling him, but he doesn't understand himself yet. This could be very symbolic of not only Aang's struggle to come to terms with his destiny as Avatar, but it can be likened to a child's confusing, sometimes frightening, struggle in the process of growing up (as "Avatar" almost above all the fantastical adventure and spiritual metaphor is, fundamentally, a coming-of-age story. Just like almost every story that features children and teens as protagonists). Quite true. Some people can't let go of their families well into their adulthood. For some letting go can even become a severe psychological fear of the unknown world without support. Granted though, 12 is a young age to be taking that step.
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Post by machina on Jan 21, 2007 2:22:32 GMT -5
Yet the only reason I can see her choosing to split from Aang is if she heard why he couldn't open the last chakra and decided for him that it would be best that she leave. Still though, I don't think she'd leave him, or even him and Toph, alone, just on the principle of not wanting to abandon children on this harsh quest alone. This is why I tend to think if she does go, it probably would be synonymous with the arrival of the firebending teacher. Who I have a deep suspicion will be an adult (Iroh is trusted by Toph, as we're reminded in COD, Jeung Jeung and Kuzon are also possibilities and both have pasts with the team/Aang), at least for awhile. She may feel necessity trumps her own worry, fear or even Aang's condition. Aang suffered a serious injury in COD, something he might not have completely recovered from by the onset of season three and that could delay any possible departure on her part, but then delaying things could only make it worse. She could perceive her time with him already gone on too long, maybe laying blame on herself to some (or a considerable) degree for what happened. If she did blame herself, I could easily see that hastening her exit, regardless of... just about anything. Guilt, combined with Katara's acute maternal desire to protect Aang from the dangers of the world (and she perceived that danger coming from her presence with him?), yeah, I can see her removing herself if she perceived herself as the danger to him. Is it very likely? Probably not. The show so far has heavily leaned towards keeping that happy team adventure-a-week motife in tact. This is also all dependent on the mere possibility of Katara discovering the truth behind Aang's lack of mastery of the AS / abandonment of his training. However, the Fire Book is also bound to be darker than either of the two previous chapters. I could see the writers perhaps giving us the cozy familiar togetherness of Team Avatar in the initial stages of the premiere, a comfort in everything is as it was. Lulling us into this false sense of security. Only to slam the audience with the separation by the end of the ep (or the following depending on how long the premiere arc extends). As she could leave him believing she is doing what's best for the world, as well as what's best for him. Aang leaving his training did feel like the smoking gun in the first act where Katara was concerned (considering she was the reason why he'd left it), at least to me. It feels like something she's bound to discover one way or another. That chakra training was also important enough for her to suggest the separation of the group in the first place at the end of "The Earth King". I suppose I also admit I took that as something of a precursor of things to come. I could see the group breaking off into these different paths, their individual journeys more focalized and building up towards their conclusions as season three does seem in all indication the final season of the series. Maybe with a reunion in some big two-parter just prior midseason or for some midseason spectacle. Thus these journeys come crashing back together again as they all come closer to that fast approaching last climactic battle. There's also the possibility of a Katara departure not being voluntary on her part. An all too likey possibility considering the danger they're always in. Things are bound to get more dicey in the third season at least living up to or probably surpassing the danger of the previous two seasons. I suppose that's part of the reason why I see Aang as such a tragic character, despite being such a jovial, goofy kid (which, for me, only ups the tragic factor). He shouldn't have to take that step at 12, no one should have to. However, if we do liken Aang's journey as Avatar (in the apex of a war no less and a wartorn world that's been deprived of an Avatar for a century) to a coming-of-age story, what should happen if he doesn't take that step? If he continues to resist it and runs away? He's ran away twice already, with devastating consequences. What should happen if he were to run again? Of course, as he ran away again in "The Guru", I suppose that would seem an indicator to me that the current set-up doesn't seem to be working at all. Maybe it is time for a significant change regarding who/what influences Aang the most?
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Post by lunauc on Jan 21, 2007 16:58:17 GMT -5
Well, if she's leaving him to the care of a firebending instructor, that may be different. As long the child has someone loooking after him, and she does percieve herself as a liability or weakness for Aang, yeah I could see her possibly splitting them up.
Seriously though, if they tracked Jeung Jeung down in a swamp and then Katara and Sokka split to look for Suki or plan for the war, leaving Toph and Aang in a swamp learning to master the last element of the Avatar...
How huge would the response of this thread be?! ;D
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