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Post by akako on Dec 25, 2007 13:10:03 GMT -5
This is something that has had me wondering since the airing of 'The Avatar and the Fire Lord.' At the end it's revealed that Zuko is the great grandson of Avatar Roku on his mother's side.
My question is; was Ozai aware of this when he took Ursa for his wife? I know Mike and Bryan have stated that Ozai and Ursa's marriage was arranged, so was Azulon aware of his Daughter In-Law's connection to Avatar Roku? Would he have approved his younger son's marriage to the granddaughter of his father's greatest foe? I would think that anyone with any kind of lineage to Avatar Roku would be lumped in with Roku, who Sozin himself called 'a traitor to the Fire Nation.' And therefore, off-limits.
One possibility is that maybe Roku and Ta Min had a daughter, and from what I can glean from Iroh's statement ' You have more than one great-grandfather, Zuko'; it's possible that in regards to the royal family, they only recognize the lineage on the father's side of the family. Though this is possibly unlikely.
Or perhaps Ta Min had a child after Roku's death and was never told much about him to protect them from possible retaliation from Sozin. I know; they were old. I'm just keeping in mind that quite a few characters have been shown to have had children very late in life. Ozai looks to be in his mid thirties and Azulon had bee ruling for how long at the time of his death? Twenty seven years? So it's very likely that Ozai was born while his grandfather Fire Lord Sozin still lived.
What do you all think? Could Ozai have known, or is he as in the dark as Zuko was until this episode?
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Post by admirality on Dec 26, 2007 6:50:54 GMT -5
I wondering the exact same same......... I think its un likely that Ta Min had a kid after Roku died but in the rescue boat there was a young woman standing next to her that I assumed was their daughter................ I think Azulon probably wud've known and that was one of the reasons he made Ozai marry her thinking she's descended from the avatar hence they'll hav powerful offspring........ But I dunno if Ozai knows or not I imagine he does know but there aint really much to go on so its just a guess......
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+Javu+
Hakoda
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Post by +Javu+ on Dec 26, 2007 13:19:22 GMT -5
When Iroh told Zuko that Avatar Roku was his Great-Grandfather, Zuko didn't know. He didn't know taht Avatar Roku was related to him. So, I guess it is possible that nobody told Zuko that. But wouldn't you want to brag about it? "My Great-grandfather was Avatar Roku!"
My other conclusion is that nobody knew except Iroh. Look at all the Firebenders we've meet. Yeah, Azula and Ozai are good at fighting, but they are sort of simple-minded. Iroh likes tea and controls his temper. He's much more stable, mentally. He also seems to have a deeper sense of understanding than everyone else, and not just Fire Nationers. He also seems to be well educated, but doesn't show it. So perhaps he knew Ursa was connected to Avatar Roku, but kept his mouth shut.
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Post by akako on Dec 26, 2007 17:25:05 GMT -5
Konoha's Yellow Flash: The question is; did Ozai or Azulon know that Ursa is Avatar Roku's granddaughter? IF yes, why let her marry Ozai? If not, how would Iroh know this? Obviously Zuko didn't know. Considering that the Avatar is viewed as 'the greatest threat to the Fire Nation', no I don't think you would go around bragging who your ancestor was.
'Simple-minded'? That implies that they're stupid, which Ozai and Azula most certainly are not. Single-minded or one-track minded would be more apt descriptions. They both want the same thing; power and world conquest. And they'll do anything to get it. Both are cunning, excellent strategists and plan their every step in advance. Iroh, on the other hand, is spiritual and seeks balance in the world. Also a brilliant strategist but he uses his abilities for the betterment of all mankind. He's a force to be reckoned with; physically, mentally and spiritually. This has already been established.
As to how Iroh knew about Roku being Zuko's great-grandfather, it's possible he found out during his journey to the Spirit World. And if so, it's very possible that Avatar Roku himself asked Iroh to look after Zuko and be the kind of father the young prince needed and guide him on the path to come.
admirality: I had considered the powerful offspring angle. I can certainly see Azulon wanting his descendants to be strong and powerful benders/warriors. IF he was aware of Ursa's ties to Roku, he may have viewed it as a chance to 'strengthen' the royal family's blood. Allowing the granddaughter of a past Avatar to marry one of his son's would be a perfect political move and given that the Fire Nation views itself as superior to the other nations and the royal family is considered almost god-like, Azulon might have seen this marriage as a chance to make the royal Fire Nation family 'divine'.
And if Azulon and Ozai did/do know about Ursa's family line, it brings me to the very possible belief that Azula herself may even know that Roku is her great-grandfather... which would explain her 'Divine right to rule' speech in the Season 2 Finale. Which makes her all the more frightening...
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Post by dragonflly on Dec 27, 2007 1:02:08 GMT -5
I'd like to say that it'd kinda be weird for them not to know, but seeing as how Azula immediatley answered Zuko's question about how "great-grandfather" did without questioning which one, it's very possible that she doesn't know either. I'm gonna be that Ozai doesn't either. And also remember, that Zuko was given information about this in secret, it just adds to the "no one knows" theory.
I think Iroh knew even before Ozai and Ursa wed, through the White Lotus. Maybe Iroh had a bit to do with the marriage, who knows?! The theory that Ozai and Ursa were married with the sole purpose of Zuko in mind isn't such an odd idea. The White Lotus seems to know many things, it could be true, stranger things have happened in the Avaverse, compaired to some, this really isn't so odd!!
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Post by pneumonia on Dec 27, 2007 7:31:03 GMT -5
I'd like to say that it'd kinda be weird for them not to know, but seeing as how Azula immediatley answered Zuko's question about how "great-grandfather" did without questioning which one, it's very possible that she doesn't know either. I'm gonna be that Ozai doesn't either. And also remember, that Zuko was given information about this in secret, it just adds to the "no one knows" theory. I think Iroh knew even before Ozai and Ursa wed, through the White Lotus. Maybe Iroh had a bit to do with the marriage, who knows?! The theory that Ozai and Ursa were married with the sole purpose of Zuko in mind isn't such an odd idea. The White Lotus seems to know many things, it could be true, stranger things have happened in the Avaverse, compaired to some, this really isn't so odd!! No wait. Azula knew who Zuko was referring to Firelord Sozin, because in that scene Zuko is looking up at a painting of him, remember? I told someone about this too, but I believe that no one knows about Ursa-Roku lineage. I would also go as far to say that Ursa's immediate family line(which would be her parents) seems very obscure. Unless I've been living under a rock or something and totally lost my brain, but does anyone here known about Ursa's parents? Whether or not this has an impact on anyone knowing about Avatar Roku as the 'great-grandfather' might very well be irrelevant and inaccessible, but I have my own theory about Ursa's parents...
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
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Post by nandireya on Dec 27, 2007 7:54:28 GMT -5
Perhaps, in order to not have Sozin come after them with sharp, pointy sticks, Roku's kids went into hiding, they would have known about the bad blood between the two. Sozin may have feared retaliation if Roku's family were to ever find out about his hand in Roku's death...I wouldn't put it past him trying to wipe out Roku's line.
Maybe the White Lotus then hid them, giving them new identities by having some of their high ranking members adopt them. This would give Ursa, the daughter of one them, a noble title that is in no way connected to Roku. The White Lotus could then have manipulated things to get her married into the royal family to set up their little back up plan of producing a child with the shared bloodlines of Roku and Sozin to bring balance to the world should the Avatar never resurface.
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Post by akako on Dec 27, 2007 20:20:17 GMT -5
nandireya posted in my thread.. I'm so honored My sister (another fellow Avatard) made a similar point to me. Only she had a theory that maybe Roku's son/daughter married someone of noble lineage who, in an act of love, protected their spouse by altering their family tree. Though I hadn't considered the White Lotus; such a thing would certainly be within their power... hmm...
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Post by dragonflly on Dec 28, 2007 0:08:26 GMT -5
I had forgotten he was looking at a painting of Sozin, thanks for the memory jog gothloli!
I still think the White Lotus had something to do with it, but we may never find out. I do think it's kinda obvious that no one knows, or they are just really good at ignoring it, maybe thinking if it's not said , no one will think about it.
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Post by thelastavatar on Dec 28, 2007 0:39:59 GMT -5
I don't think Roku and Sozin made their disagreement too public. People see what they want to see; they started out as best friends, so people probably assumed that they would remain best friends for the rest of their lives. Plus, it wouldn't look good if the entire world knew that the Avatar was against the Fire Lord, and basically the entire Fire Nation. Even though Roku does basically obliterate the front half of the Royal Palace, people most likely chalked it up to a really bad argument that the two eventually got over.
Azulon, Sozin's own son, may not have even known about this rift. He may only know that Sozin went to help his old friend out the night the volcanoes erupted, and came back with the sad news that he didn't get there in time to save the Avatar. Then Sozin brings out his war against the rest of the world to "spread the Fire Nation's prosperity with the rest of the world". Seeing as Sozin knew Roku's firm stance against his war, he would tell his nation, and his son, that the Avatar, now an Air Nomad, would oppose them and their cause. People would have a dislike against this new Avatar that eventually grows.
Azulon, not knowing the heart of the matter, accepts the new Avatar, Aang, as an enemy. Sozin's genocide against the Air Nomads fails to take out the Avatar, so he must take up the mantle where his father left off. However, he still believes that Roku and his father were on good terms, so none of the Fire Nation tries to hunt down Roku's family.
Another generation passes, and Roku's granddaughter Ursa is born. If the argument way way back was kept under wraps, then the Royal Family wouldn't really care about Roku's following lineage. Also, it can get a bit hard to keep up with the family tree through 3 generations; if Azulon did know about Sozin's and Roku's rift from the records kept by the Fire Sages, then he may have lost Ursa through the winding branches of the family tree. Either way, he doesn't know about Ursa's true heritage, and Ozai can marry her.
I wonder if Ursa was born to a Fire Nation nobility family and Roku's child? Are we even sure if Roku has a daughter or son?
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Alleluia
Kyoshi Mai
Earthbending General of the Zutarian Army
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Post by Alleluia on Dec 28, 2007 22:50:05 GMT -5
No, we don't know whether it was a son or daughter, or *multiple* sons or daughters, that Roku and his wife had. And you bring up a good point about hte family tree stuff. For all we know, Roku's daughter married a noble and had a daughter, who married a noble, who had Ursa, who married Ozai. That's two chances for lineage to be lost or overshadowed because it could have been thought the husband's lineage was more important. Or maybe some other reason entirely.
Fact is, Ursa may not have even known she was related to Roku, either. We just don't know at this point.
If she *did* know however, then it was definitely hidden from Azulon. Sozin didn't take kindly to Roku by the end of his life. And I doubt he would have felt any kinder toward his descendants. And if he did hate Rooku and his descendants, then I find it impossible Azulon wouldn't know or feel the same. He and Sozin seemed cut from the same cloth, so to speak. So, being a descendant of the Avatar would inherently be dangerous.
On a side note, I find it funny that even Iroh is treating it like Zuko has two great grandfathers only. Unless there was some inbreeding somewhere, Zuko has four, just liek every other human being on the planet. lol Of course, the other two just aren't important enough, I guess.
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MsJimmy
Refugee Aang
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Post by MsJimmy on Dec 28, 2007 22:52:53 GMT -5
Or are they?? O.o
If no one knew though, then why were the scrolls there? ... someone put them there, right? ... >_>
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Alleluia
Kyoshi Mai
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Post by Alleluia on Dec 28, 2007 22:55:22 GMT -5
Didn't those scrolls sound like they were written by Sozin, himself? Like he was narrating them, I mean. When Zuko was reading them. I say maybe Sozin wrote them and some sages stuck them in the catacombs for safekeeping.
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MsJimmy
Refugee Aang
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Post by MsJimmy on Dec 28, 2007 22:58:37 GMT -5
Actually I don't even know really what I said, but sure!
... wait no, how did Iroh know? ... Iroh knew right? ... Alle you have a knack for confusing me >_>
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Alleluia
Kyoshi Mai
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Post by Alleluia on Dec 28, 2007 23:00:10 GMT -5
lol Iroh knew that Roku was Ursa's Grandfather somehow yeah. Doesn't mean that it was public knowledge or that the rest of the royal family knew though. I think he may have found out when he went to the Spirit World. We have seen Roku manifest to Aang there, maybe he spoke to Iroh, too, all those years ago.
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