Book 2: Beginnings, Part 1 & 2

[Musogato]

Discussion for tonight's hour-long episode, Beginnings Part 1 and Part 2. Finally get to see Avatar Wan!

[zukofan21]

I love this episode. It was great learning about the origins of the elements and I greatly enjoyed Wan's background.

One thing I loved was the subtle attention to differences, like the airbenders not having arrows tattooed but an ancient symbol.

Still wondering how these storylines show going to come together at the end. I think I see how Varrick/Mako/Asami will end, but I'm really scratching my head on why Unalaq wants the portals open now.

[ILZ]

I was somewhat unsure at the beginning of this episode since I really wasn't fond of the animation style, even though I understand the reason behind it. However, I can honestly say that this was one of my favorite episodes in either series.

The story of how the Avatar came to be was amazing. I loved seeing the evolution of Wan from a naive young boy just trying to feed his friends to the first Avatar offering to sacrifice himself to save the world. It reminded me a lot of the change we saw in Aang throughout ATLA.

I loved how Wan earned the trust of the spirits. Who knew spirits could be so cute? And the way the the head spirit called him Stinky even when they met again was great. I like the fact that until Korra all the Avatars followed the tradition of traveling the world to learn the elements. Of course it was the only way that Wan could get the power of each element, but I think it is crucial that the Avatar experience each culture. I believe that Korra lost out on the true Avatar training by being sequestered in South Pole and having her teachers coming to her.

I think it is interesting the Avatar spirit was at one time an actual spirit. It is sad that through the ages the Avatar lost the knowledge of Rava even though they were always together, they lost their almost friendship relationship.

I'm excited to see how the rest of the season plays out with the Harmonic Convergence coming up. I kinda like the sense of a deadline with the world hanging in the balance again. It is way more exciting to watch than the Amon storyline in my opinion. I'm wondering what Unalaq's true motivation to have Korra open the portal was. I wonder if somehow Vatu was able to contact him to get him to release him.

EDIT: I'm somewhat confused about the origins of bending. I'm assuming that after the lion turtles stopped giving away the power of the elements that humans then learned from the sun, moon, badger moles, and dragons. Does anyone else have a different interpretation of that?

[Dr. Joe]

Oct 18, 2013 20:22:37 GMT -5 ILZ said:

EDIT: I'm somewhat confused about the origins of bending. I'm assuming that after the lion turtles stopped giving away the power of the elements that humans then learned from the sun, moon, badger moles, and dragons. Does anyone else have a different interpretation of that?

I've got one.

The way I saw it, the lion turtles are the only origin of bending. The gift was given to some people, but not others, and bending was just passed on naturally through the generations. Over time, the true story on the beginning of bending was lost (after all, is this thousands of years ago) and so people came up with their own theories on the origins of bending. This would mean that the stories on the origin of bending presented to us in ATLA are actually just myths commonly accepted as fact throughout the world.

That's how I saw it anyway.

[Paraiba Ocean]

I'm on the same page; while I want to say, "omg plot hole," I think these stories of air bison, badgermoles, moon, etc became a legend for stories that the people lost through history. It is a bit confusing to me as well, but I suppose it does follow some logic, as when you look at any mythology, they often create stories to explain something they may not truly understand (ie, the rape of Persephone to explain the seasons in Greek mythology).

A bit confusing, but I suppose that's how it happens.

[Leaf]

I want a "The Legend of Wan" spin-off series taking place after his showdown with Vaatu and before his death or maybe one focusing on the second Avatar.

[ILZ]

It makes sense that they could just be myths. A lot of truth is lost in history as time goes on. But it just came to me what about Oma and Shu? Because I had the feeling that their story was written in their tomb shortly after they died so it would still be remembered well. Sorry this is a little off topic of the episode discussion.

[Dr. Joe]

I don't know about Oma and Shu, their story pokes a little hole in my theory. Under my theory, they still could have been the first earthbenders but they would have to have been given the ability by the Lion Turtle instead of learning it from badgermoles. Under your theory, they could have still learned from the badgermoles (as the story says) but that would be after the initial, lion-turtle gifted earthbenders. Either way, the legend in the Cave of Two Lovers is at least partially inaccurate. Alternatively, their story cold just be a legend created and written down in their tomb later, though that seems unlikely.

I don't know though, someone will just have to ask Bryke.

[Paraiba Ocean]

I guess it does make some sort of sense though, because as cool as it is to think, "some people just have the gene/spiritual component for it," and they figured out how to do it on their own watching these respective beings bend the elements, it does place a more concrete idea about the genetics of bending (ie, the child of two people of the Water Tribe cannot have a firebender unless there is a person of the Fire Nation in the family). That being said, I guess we must also assume though that all the people of the Air Lion Turtle city were given the ability since all Air Nomads were benders?

[ILZ]

^ I guess since the people of the Air Lion Turtle city were so connected to the spirits, they were all deemed worthy of having the gift of Air because they would use it responsibly and not mindlessly attack the good spirits.

[Paraiba Ocean]

^Possibly so!

I'm also a little disappointed that Raava and Vaatu have never been mentioned before, though I suppose that could possibly be because the idea of connecting to the first Avatar/origin of the Avatar, while of some relative import, was not fully conceptualized until later on. However, I do wonder if Korra would be able to communicate with Raava now that she remembers that particular connection. It could be interesting?

Also, saw some really interesting discussions about Raava and the reincarnation cycle of the Avatar: is it Wan himself being reincarnated (I think one could draw a lot of comparisons between Wan and Korra, personality-wise) combined with Raava, or is it Raava only? I think it's very interesting the idea that the Avatar is born to randomly selected people throughout the different races, (and does replicate the idea of many people throughout many religions - especially Abrahamic ones, as Abraham and his sons and grandson were not really that special tbh). However, how did they come to decide to cycle through the way Wan learned the elements? And is it just that Raava bears the consciousness of each of the reincarnations and it is simply her entity connecting with the soul/spirit/whatever of the next incarnation and therefore the memories and consciouses of each preceding Avatar, or is it really Wan bonded to Raava reincarnating and through different experiences, cultures, backgrounds, time periods, and other factors, becoming a unique person entirely? Just some food for thought!

[Musogato]

Well, that made me tear up.

I absolutely loved the art style, and I'm glad it was Avatar-verse-like and not just 'classic story-ish'-like like with the Oma and Shu tale. How they handled the distant backgrounds was really pretty too, and certain features like the spirit portals, the Spirit World sky, and the Airbender's Nimbus clouds. All of the references to the Miyazaki films was great too. And Disney's Aladdin, apparently.

These two episodes really felt like what I loved about ATLA, and was such a breath of fresh air to the past few episodes. I love Wan and the various lion turtle villages, and teaming up with Raava. I was half-way through the show before I finally put the pieces together with her and how the Avatar Spirit worked, and I really, really love how they paced these two episodes and wrote it out and everything. I would love to see more; honestly I'm not ready to go back to Korra's era just yet.

But now what I want to know is who were those Fire Sages, how did the old woman know about Raava, and homg, was that herd of flying bison from BEFORE the 100-year war? Were their ancestors saved from annihilation, or used to get the fire soldiers to the air temples for the attack?

Also, the portal where Vaatu was sealed in the tree, wasn't that the North Pole one? Because Wan entered from the South Pole portal and I think that's the one that was left open. I wonder if Unalaq released or is working with Vaatu like people have previously predicted and that's why the spirits are corrupting, or if all of these bad guy vibes are just to throw shade on this well-intentioned but flawed guy who knows about the Harmonic Convergence thing that's coming up and is trying to prepare Korra for that fight. I'd kind of like it to be the latter one because then he'd be in charge of his actions and those consequences rather than just pushing the blame onto Vaatu or whoever.

Re: bending origins for everyone else, what if it's both? Certainly there would be those who descended from those with the Lion-Turtle-given powers, but what if there were also those who learned from the elemental spirits/animals? Didn't Toph learn her bending from the badgermoles? If the world is big and people were still somewhat divided, it could be possible for there to be numerous origin stories, depending on the individual areas. And if some become more popular (like Oma and Shu, who can resist a good love story?) it may eventually drown out the other stories as time goes on.

It definitely seems that the ATLA bending sources all have one thing in common: teaching the movement. Since it seems that all of the people were descended from the Lion Turtle clans (although we don't know how many of those outside of the Airbenders gained bending powers), I think it would be safe to assume that a significant majority would eventually have those bending genetics even if dormant. Mike and Bryan keep saying that bending isn't just genetic but also spiritual -- maybe the Lion Turtle powers and the elemental spirits/animals represent that duality. Or something. You know Bryke'll be bombarded with these questions now.

[Paraiba Ocean]

Yes, I suppose that's what I meant to have said and should have been more specific about - how doe the Fire Sages know who Raava is and the story of the original Avatar, but Korra I would have wagered had no clue prior to that particular sequence of events? I suppose these particular Fire Sages are simply a catalyst to reconnect Korra to her memories and make her aware of who/what is responsible for the dark spirits, but aksdjakjdaks SO MANY QUESTIONS LEFT UNANSWERED.

[Nashk Tategami]

Indeed so many questions.

I have to say I have really mixed feelings on this episode. The art style threw me off hard, and not in a good way. The background ink block art looked great but the animation looked to much like an anime. I like anime, but I just dig not dig the art shift here. Excess color, studio ghibli style spirits (seriously its like princess mononoke and spirited away had a baby with avatar) and a little too much meandering.

I am also conflicted on the story. I love the "folktale" nature of the episode but I hate how much it clashed with established lore. Yes I know the human told history is unlikely to be true but I feel this story is far less romantic than learning to bend from the moon and dragons etc. I make it work in my head by assuming there was some sort of apocalypse where everyone forgot how to bend, but never lost the potential for it. So they relearned from the environment rather than just getting it from the lionturtle.

Something else that bothered me was how... unepic the whole Raava and Vaatu conflict was. I hate when entire complex universes are condensed down to be ruled by a simple "absolute good" and "absolute evil" creatures. Then they take that concept and make it so... anti-climatic. The fight looks more like a light wrestling match when Wan finds them, and wan is so easily able to disrupt the fight with a few blasts of fire.

Overall I love the episode and the ideas it was trying to give us but the execution was just rushed. Even with a two parter they couldn't fit their ideas. These guys just need to make an epic already.

[Paraiba Ocean]

I think the idea of "absolute good" and "absolute evil" are really though so much more complex than you give it credit for. Philosophically speaking, there's so much you can draw from it. For example, can good exist without evil? According to Raava, no, it cannot. But why not? Why should there be good and evil? Who has deemed that it should be so? And are Raava and Vaatu just entities that always were - such as presumed in something like Greek mythology (In the beginning there was Chaos, and from that Chaos came Order) - or are they shadows that come from something or someone else, like the Unity from Greek philosophy? I think it's realistic; just about every kind of mythology/religion attributes absolute good to at least one entity, and absolute evil to at least one (i.e., God vs. Devil in the Abrahamic Religions, or Horus v. Seth in Egyptian mythology, etc.), but what is probably the most realistic is how far the society seems to have deviated from this. Before, I can imagine many people knew of Vaatu and Raava (perhaps the ancestors of the Air Nomads most), and as time passed, Vaatu and Raava became known only by the shadows that remained on the world which we call good and evil. Establishing that there are entities that are the essence of that particular idea or whatever, does not have to make it anti-climatic, as there are a lot of questions and ideas and thoughts that can still come from this.

For example, mine remains that there most likely is a deity that created the spirits that exist in the Avatarverse: who is s/he?