kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 26, 2007 21:22:51 GMT -5
Nice post, zutarian! ^^ Pity is an emotion. Sociopathic people don't feel sorry for other people >__> Also, I think that picture of her where she's yelling is when Ozai confronts her about her treachery, but that's just my guess. e-chan, that picture is disturbing fake. The artists just drew it for the New York comicon to mess with our heads XD not a grain of truth in any of them
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zutarian4eva
Avatar Aang
Never judge a person from the outside, what counts is the inside...
Posts: 1,110
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Post by zutarian4eva on Dec 26, 2007 21:31:19 GMT -5
@ Kaibasgirl Thanks.
But it is true right? Azula does act HUMAN (With Emotions that is) when nobody knows who she is besides her friends.
So if Ursa and her encounter one another; there are chances that the scene like..I need to write it out.
*Mother Daughter Face to Face a safe distance from one another* The wind is blowing softly. Ursa just stares at her daughter surpirsed and stands her ground with a sad expression on her face. (guilt)
Azula has three choices:
A) She stands there in shock, trying to pull her mind together that she standing right across from her mother. (Pupils Dialate)
B) Attack.
C) Take as Hostage to Capture Zuko.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 26, 2007 21:35:06 GMT -5
Yep, definitely ^^
Other people have issues with that because for an entire season we've only seen Azula acting like Ozai's daughter, we haven't seen her being a normal teenager (which is why The Beach is so awesome! It brings out that side of her! ^^).
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 26, 2007 21:56:26 GMT -5
Again...no one ever said Azula doesn't have emotions. She's not that kind of character. She has plenty of emotions...they're just all negative.
The ability to display emotions does not a decent person make. Jealousy and envy? That could be the cause of a good deal of Azula's behavior...she doesn't envy any particular person, but she is jealous of anything that any one might have over her. So what does she do? Usually reacts negatively. It this excusable? No...all characters can feel these emotions, they just aren't nut cases like Azula who do evil things at the whim of these emotions.
Pity? I missed that one. She stopped Ty Lee from being upset...because she, for some reason, enjoys the other person's company. Is a requirement for a villain to be someone who everyone hates and hates everyone in return? Nay. So far, we have evidence of two people Azula genuinely likes...how does she treat them most of the time? She gives them orders and manipulates them, only taking enough apparent precaution to keep them from leaving.
Still, her negative actions and qualities so vastly outnumber this minor ability to hold a shaky and unnatural bond of sorts to Mai and Ty Lee. She murdered Aang with a smile on her face, and smirked as she attempted to kill her own brother and uncle. She has shown not the slightest hint of remorse for any of these actions.
Her role in this story is cemented as a villain. It took Zuko such a long time to reach a redeemable point that to do the same for Azula would make no sense and just lower the meaningfulness of Zuko's story. It's just a shoddy repeat of what Zuko did with none of the care and forethought.
So, on the matter at hand, why would they even give her a real, not-orchestrated-for-cheap-laughs (the beach) moment of sympathetic behavior? Why would they compromise her awesomeness as a villain? A gray antagonist can be a GREAT thing...Azula is SO not one of these though.
Which is why I disliked the beach so much...it was just orchestrated for cheap laughs. They do this all the time. They make Sokka look like an idiot, even though we all know that he's the smartest one in the group. Why do they do it? For laughs.
Was Azula's awkward behavior in the beach treated as a serious, deep moment? Or was it all for humor? They did it because it's so UNLIKE her that they found it funny.
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zutarian4eva
Avatar Aang
Never judge a person from the outside, what counts is the inside...
Posts: 1,110
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Post by zutarian4eva on Dec 26, 2007 22:00:24 GMT -5
Whoa, good backup. XD Talk about Negative actions. I agree that Azula makes a Villain character too. But it WOULD be INTERESTING if Ursa and Azula encounter alone; maybe if my prediction is right that Azula does not show any emotions to people who knows who she is, so that they'll fear her; it would rather VERY interesting how she would react if she had a one on one encounter with her mother. Who knows; characters always have something up their sleeves. XD
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 26, 2007 22:05:41 GMT -5
I would like to see a scene between them, yes, but I don't expect any sort of genuine compassion from Azula. The girl was happy when her mother dissppeared...she just doesn't care.
What emotion do I suspect Azula to show? The same she usually shows. An air of arrogant superiority. A condescending demeanor and mocking behavior.
And I must point out, it's not the characters who have things up their sleeves...it's the writers. And the writers have to keep in mind where the story is going and what the character's purpose in the story is. So they have to keep that characters actions consistent with their vision without drastically making such a huge and sudden alteration, unless they plan to go for shock. And, in my opinion, that's not Azula. She is the most prominent villain in the show. Losing her in such a manner would leave a big, gaping hole. It would also mess up Zuko's storyline, and would just clash with all of Azula's previous actions.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 26, 2007 22:09:51 GMT -5
yiceman, this'll probably sound mean, but I'm really glad you're not one of the people writing for Avatar Seriously, I think Azula has a lot more character potential than simply being a villian, and I think the writer's know that. Also, Azula is very different from Zuko. One of the reasons his redemption took so long is because he's over-dramatic, and half his angsting came from himself. but, I don't want to get into an argument with you tonight because my head hurts, so...can we call it a truce?
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zutarian4eva
Avatar Aang
Never judge a person from the outside, what counts is the inside...
Posts: 1,110
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Post by zutarian4eva on Dec 26, 2007 22:11:16 GMT -5
Azula rocks as a Villain; her character is perfect. However, it would be most interesting if Ursa hits her soft side. ^^ Azula would probably come up with lies to ignore the soft side that she intends not to reveal. Hm, maybe she was happy that the Fire Lord was dead; she did say that Ozai would've made a better Fire Lord...But yet again; she has her evil side, and probably very happy that Ursa was gone since Zuko was left to suffer without his mother that loved him and was happy that someone else besides her was going suffer the lack of affections. She was considered the Perfect Child; and probably did not understand why Ursa loved Zuko and not her in the way her father does.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 26, 2007 22:20:15 GMT -5
zutarian, here maybe read that. It explains the whole "Azula was happy Ursa left" thing very nicely.
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zutarian4eva
Avatar Aang
Never judge a person from the outside, what counts is the inside...
Posts: 1,110
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Post by zutarian4eva on Dec 26, 2007 22:25:39 GMT -5
Ah thanks!
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 26, 2007 22:53:05 GMT -5
Truce? I wasn't aware we were at war ;p
Now, I don't see how keeping a character consistent is a bad thing. You say Azula has potential? ALL characters have potential. Haru has potential to run off and try to single handedly break his dad out of prison. He has potential to try to gather up an earthbender rebellion and take back the Earth Kingdom. He has potential to have a passionate romance. He has potential to be the funniest character on the show. He has the potential to become evil and sadistic.
But I wouldn't do any of these things...because they don't fit (what I see) as his role in the story.
Sokka has potential to become vengeful and murderous if he finds Suki is dead. He has potential to leave the gAang and start assassinating top FN officials. Will he? No. Am I being to strict in writing to say so? I think not.
All characters have potential to do any dang thing a writer wants. But, in most cases, to do so is to lose sight of the bedrock foundations of what MAKES that character.
We all know that Aang is free-loving, light-hearted, good-natured, and respectful of life and liberty. Those are his FOUNDATIONS. He has potential to expand. To become serious and brooding all the time. To become a mastermind and a buff action hero who goes Rambo on all the bad guys. Should he? Will he? No, because you lose sight of what makes Aang AANG.
I've browsed a few Azula redemptive/romantic fan fictions. I might have missed some really good ones, but one repeating theme I notice is that I can't tell this is Azula. It just doesn't seem like her. They make her into a different character.
Some people see her position...an ambitious young princess in a war-torn world with a ruthless father, and yes, they see potential to make a great story out of that. No problem...that's what fanfiction is for.
But, what I've noticed, is that they lose the character foundations. They lose what MAKES her Azula. It's not Azula anymore...it's just a character with the same name and looks.
But, in this story, the writers have a different goal in mind. Is their way or my way any better? Is your way any better? No. Just different. You might look at Haru and say he has potential to become a great hero who saves the world. I look at him and think that, in THIS story, his role is minor. He serves a better purpose in a supporting role. It makes more sense to keep him there.
So, yes, I am restricting a character...for the good of the show as a whole.
I am restricting Azula. No denying it. Because I think that I am on the same field as the writers. They've been restricting her too. Excluding that anomaly beach moment, which to me still is a random shtick done for laughs with no lasting impact on her character, they have never made any attempt to represent her as anything but a villain.
She has built up a niche for herself as a big villain in this series. The things she's done and the direction this story is headed leave me to believe that her purpose will remain as that of a villain.
She is like Zhao. A simple character. They didn't expand on him at all. And I am not in disagreement with that. But I love this little comic series that rufftoon did about Zhao surviving the siege of the north. He's the hero of that comic, so to speak. His ROLE has changed. He is no longer a villain in that comic. His personality hasn't changed much though, which is probably why I like it. As I mentioned, I don't really get the idea of writing a fanfiction about a character from the show when you so vastly change their core foundations. You've just created an original character and borrowed a copyrighted character's name at that point. So anyway, that's why I like this comic...Zhao is still Zhao. His role has changed, but he's still a pretty big prick. Mean, ambitious, bordering corrupt.
But I really like the comic.
So I think you mistake me and my position. Do I have a personal vendetta against Azula, no matter the circumstances? Do I think that redeeming her in a different situation is bad, no matter what? Will I be repulsed by any and all such stories? No.
Writing a story with the focus on a confused princess brought up under the veil of evil has potential for a great story.
But that is not THIS story. While a character such as Azula could be the heroine of another story, she is a villain in this one. And an unambiguous, hardcore villain at that. Not even an antagonist...balls to the wall villain.
That is her ROLE in this story. And she fits that role perfectly.
Now, in a different story, one where she was a more important character and her purpose in the story was similar to Zuko's is in this one, redeeming her would have worked. Even as vile as she is now...with enough time and attention it could work.
But they don't have that kind of time and attention to devote to her. What is it, eight, nine episodes? And they would have to feature her in EVERY episode. A significant amount of time as well.
Zuko had nine episodes to turn around before DoBS. But he wasn't in all of the episodes. He was in five.
Now, how many times have you seen people mentioning that they found his decision to join Aang was a little rushed? Rushed! This has been obvious from day one. I only knew one guy who adamantly insisted that Zuko would not be redeemed. And yet I myself and many others found that Zuko reached his decision suddenly.
Now, do you think that Azula will have a major roll in every episode until the finale? I don't. She's just not that big of a character, plain and simple.
It's not her role to be redeemed. It was Zuko's role. And it was evident from day one. If Azula shared a similar role, why have the writers made her so consistently evil?
So again, it's not that I think the idea is bad. Don't think that I'm knocking what you see as a great storyline. Because I agree...if COULD have been great if the writers had intended to do it. But I STRONGLY feel that they did not intend to do so, and I STRONGLY think that her role in this story is that of a villain, not a redeemable antagonist, and I STRONGLY think that it's way too late to change that. Starting now is, to me, just awful writing.
If they had started from the beginning with the intent to do so, I would not be arguing with you.
Now, many times writers make unexpected turns with a character's role in the story. Did any of us, in the beginning, suspect that Sokka would be the master-planner, army-leading guy he is now? Probably not. But it fits.
Because we kept Sokka's core foundations. He's still Sokka.
Aang has matured and changed greatly. Does this anger me? Quite the reverse...i really feel he has a good ways more to go. Because they never lost his core foundations...the principle ideas that MAKE him Aang.
Redeeming Azula loses her core foundations. Her core foundations are ambition, ruthlessness, intelligence, cunning, manipulative ability, fearsome fighting abilities, and utter lack of compassion and empathy. I don't see how you could alter what the writers have set up as Azula's core characteristics and have it make sense.
If they had wanted to redeem her, they wouldn't have made her those things. Look at Zuko...he had bad qualities. But are those his core characteristics? I think not. I always considered Zuko to be passionate, determined, and headstrong. Even when he was the bad guy, these traits were what made him Zuko. Did he ever do bad things because he enjoyed them? No, it was his determination to accomplish his goal. These traits transcend Zuko's journey from villain to hero.
Azula's traits could not. Her traits are largely negative. Most, if not all of them, would have to be lost. And thus, you would lose Azula.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 26, 2007 23:19:55 GMT -5
omg, yiceman, if you think I'm seriously going to read all that, you're crazy! >< How many words is that? Over a thousand? Two thousand? Just looking at it makes my eyes hurt.
right, I'm going to very gracefully leave this debate, and let someone else with the patience head to read through all that respond >__>
sorry, normally I like debating with you, but my head really hurts tonight, so maybe a different time
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zutarian4eva
Avatar Aang
Never judge a person from the outside, what counts is the inside...
Posts: 1,110
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Post by zutarian4eva on Dec 26, 2007 23:29:01 GMT -5
LOL. He is a pro debator, gotta read, gotta love it. Truce? Of course; there was never a war in the first place...was there? LOL. TRUCE INDEED!
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 27, 2007 19:37:16 GMT -5
Take your time kai.
And we don't need a truce! We're all buddies here.
Let me try to condense my point...I'm not trying to say that villains should be villains and heroes should be heroes with no gray areas. I'm very much against that idea, in fact. I like clouding the works.
Heck, I just started writing my second screenplay...a western. And I feature two characters pitted against each other, one with the intent to hunt down and kill the other for revenge. But I take great care to keep the audience in the dark on which one to root for. I give them both equally sympathetic and dark moments. But I start that from minute one of the story. I keep the characters consistent.
That's what it's about...consistency. If I just had this angry grumpitude against villains finding redemption, I wouldn't like Zuko so much.
But Azula has been represented in a way that makes any sensible method of redemption impossible, in my opinion.
In my story, I give both characters equal moments of good and bad actions. In Zuko's story, he was balanced between good and bad behavior.
Azula has been firmly rooted into villainy. I myself love keeping things complex in my own story, but Mike and Bryan, like myself, also see the benefit of having a full-on, undeniably evil character every now and then. Someone who's just nasty to the core. That is Azula.
(This was my condensed version...I talk too much)
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 27, 2007 19:53:42 GMT -5
Ah, thank you for abridging that XD much easier to read. I see. So it's really what you feel the writer's should be doing because that's what you like to see in a story. I can respect that. But just because you like having things spelled out in black and white doesn't mean Avatar's going to go that way. They don't seem to like that. Almost every character on the show has had depth to them. And before you start on Zhao and Long Feng (because I know you were about to say something on that) they did have depth, but it was very subtle. With Long Feng, we got to know his whole past. Born with nothing, has to claw his way up to power, etc. if one took the time to think about it, yeah, they can come up with a good case for him. After all, being poor, he must've been teased as a kid, etc. etc. the regular sob story. and Zhao...eh, I don't like him, so I didn't really pay much attention when he was on screen. I'll have to go back and read the transcripts on ASN and get back to you. hey yiceman, just a question, but if Azula's redeemed, what would you do?
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