ethe
Haru
The Mythological Being
Posts: 335
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Post by ethe on Dec 19, 2007 21:34:56 GMT -5
It's interesting reading everyone opinions. But I think you made me lol the most xDD Especially in that line. That's nice to hear! It really is. 'Glad you got a kick out of what I said. Though I'll continue to have reservations, I suppose a reunion with Ursa could bring clarity to this picture... Again, knowing what we do of Azula and her contestable range of emotions, I'm not committed to stand behind this theory, as I'm hesitant to believe the presence of her mother could cause such a powerful reaction -- simply throwing an idea out there. I won't write it out, but still... Yeah; I think she can show emotion, just not alot of it all at once... Like she is in that picture you posted ._. um, I will edit this post after I become coherent again ._. but, uh... omg what is wrong with Azula! XD Is she... is she actually having a breakdown? OMG *karma'd* Wow.... just, wow.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 19, 2007 21:47:29 GMT -5
Azula shows emotion fine, it's just always directed in a negative fashion. She's happy and laughs all the time...just always at the misfortune of others.
Now...Azula is not human. She's a fictional character. Her range of emotions and thought process is reliant entirely on her role in the story. Her role in the story has fixed itself as that of a villainous one. So, no, when showing her behave in a way that's so suddenly different than how she's been shown so far and contrasts deeply with her purpose in this story, it just can't happen.
So saying that Azula is human and just as likely to display these emotions as anyone else...no. She's fake. She's here to serve a purpose in this show, as are all other characters. We could say that Aang is capable of murderous, bloodthirsty tendencies that cause him to take pleasure in hurting people, but no, it doesn't fit his character or his role in the story.
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Post by chii on Dec 19, 2007 21:52:15 GMT -5
The problem with Azula is not that she has no emotions or is incapable of feeling. It's that she is not capable of empathy.
Her cage has been rattled before. We've seen her angry and jealous and laughing and and surprised before. She has emotions.
What we haven't seen her do is connect with anyone else's feelings and feel guilt, remorse, or shame. She is manipulative and values no one else feelings ow well-being but her own.
I think she is a psychopath. A highly intelligent one at that.
I don't think seeing her mother would move her or any of that, though. She doesn't care about Ursa or anyne but herself for that matter.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 19, 2007 21:53:07 GMT -5
LOL, yiceman, you're forgetting "The Beach"
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ethe
Haru
The Mythological Being
Posts: 335
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Post by ethe on Dec 19, 2007 21:54:47 GMT -5
yeah, she was so into that guy, whatever his name is, in "the beach". So she can love, or like, whatever, lol xD
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 19, 2007 22:01:48 GMT -5
ugh, no, she wasn't so into him nothing! ><
He was just a temporary thing, so there.
I meant her contriteness with Ty Lee and her sensativity towards brother in that episode.
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ethe
Haru
The Mythological Being
Posts: 335
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Post by ethe on Dec 19, 2007 22:15:57 GMT -5
ugh, no, she wasn't so into him nothing! >< He was just a temporary thing, so there. I meant her contriteness with Ty Lee and her sensativity towards brother in that episode. Lol, Kai I understand. I wasn't to fond of him either. I was just pointing out that she went as far as to kiss someone. I loved seeing her interact with Ty Lee *_* Azula does care for people.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 19, 2007 22:27:13 GMT -5
LOL. I guess he does have his uses, she used him as practice for Sokka
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 20, 2007 1:22:18 GMT -5
The Beach is worth forgetting. I said that Azula suddenly showing compassion would be a direct and jarring contrast to how she's been shown so far, and it was. It was horrible. Even as small as it was in that episode, it just didn't fit her.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 20, 2007 17:28:31 GMT -5
uh, no, that's okay yiceman, I think I'll maintain it as canon and all of Azula's interactions as character development
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 20, 2007 17:52:12 GMT -5
I'm not saying it's not canon. I'm saying it was awkward and inconsistent canon. Even as minor as they did alter Azula's nature, it was so un-like her that it confirms what I've felt for a long time for me. Anything more would be even worse.
The Beach was a joke episode. I'm saying that I don't think that events in that episode were planned by the head writers of the show, but were tacked in by the under-writer for cheap laughs. I don't see that any lasting effects will come from anything in that episode.
They said we'd learn more about Mai and Ty Lee....Ty Lee hasn't appeared in any other episodes because she's just not crucial to the plot, and Mai's story didn't match up with her behavior in Return to Omashu.
And Zuko still turned against his father and sister.
To put it simply...nothing came from that episode. None of the characters developed at all. They were all exactly the same as they were before that episode. Look at DoBS...was Azula anything BUT a ruthless villain?
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Dec 20, 2007 18:04:52 GMT -5
but awkward and inconsistent canon...is still canon =D I think it fit perfectly with her character. It wasn't like she was on the frontlines of war where she had to battle enemy soldiers or whatever. She was being a normal person, which, hard as it may be to accept, she can be too. Also, even if the episode was written by a secondary writer, it still has to get approved by the heads, you know that, right? Ty Lee will come back, I'm sure we'll be seeing her in the next few episodes, but I think they were focusing more on Zuko, considering he had to make that crucial decision in DoBS and join the Avatar, but how didn't Mai's behavior in RTO not match up with her character? It seemed to fit in perfectly. Zuko turned against his father. He said nothing about Azula. Of course Azula was a villain, but that's because she was fighting against the gang. From the FN perspective, she was a total hero for warning them about the invasion
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 20, 2007 18:50:31 GMT -5
My friend, I haven't been arguing that a good Azula will never, ever become canon. I've been arguing that I do not believe it will, because to do so would be awkward and confusing. If you notice, I provide reasons for WHY it would be bad, which then leads to my assumption that the writers know what they're doing and wouldn't do that.
If it does become canon, I'll more than likely still be right. Because it will be bad canon.
Now...you think it fit perfectly with her character? How can it, when you just went on to say that we saw her not fighting the war but being normal? That IS against her character. She's not supposed to be in normal situations. I can't accept that she can behave like that when it is detrimental as her major purpose as a villain.
In the Beach, Azula was not made to be sympathetic or understandable. She was made a joke, for the most part. They made fun of her because, as good as she is at villainous deeds, she sucks at normal stuff. Which is probably why Mike and Bryan gave it the ok. They thought it was funny. They do a lot of stuff for laughs that don't seem to work, imo. How often do they make Sokka look like an idiot and a buffoon just for a laugh? Isn't he supposed to be the smart one?
So how does Azula acting so different from how she acts before and AFTER this episode fit her character?
Now I'm sure Ty Lee will come back, but will her story? Will her past be re-addressed? Or will she continue to be a bubbly goof? And Mai? I didn't mean her behavior was inconsistent, I meant her story was. She was complaining about how her parents never let her speak or do anything...but she was snarky and sarcastic with them in Return to Omashu. It doesn't fit. Why? Beause the head writers didn't plan it out. But they let it slide because they're too busy to worry about characters like Mai and Ty Lee overly much.
Just look at it like this...pretend The Beach episode did not exist. Would we miss it in terms of the plot? Did Azula behave ANY differently after that episode? Did ANY of them? (excepting the rampant mood swings that Zuko had all season.)
The Beach was not a plot episode. The Avatar and the Fire Lord is a plot episode.
Now, if we were REALLY to see the beginning signs of Azula's turn...it would be a huge plot piece! They wouldn't have it shimmied into a filler!
Look at Zuko...it took him two and a half seasons to get from considerably better and more compassionate than Azula to where he is now. Each major change was in a plot episode. The Storm, The Blue Spirit, The Siege of the North, The Avatar State, Zuko Alone, Lake Laogi, The Earth King. It was a slow and gradual process, one that was carefully plotted.
So, after that redemptive arc has been done, what's their plan for Azula?
"Make her evil with no exceptions for all of season two. Throw in a single episode in season three of her not being evil. Follow that episode with DoBS, where she's just as if not MORE evil than ever. Then in the last five episodes, have her do what it took Zuko three and a half seasons to do."
They just don't have the time to devote to her, nor do they have the purpose. She's a good villain, and it looks like they're going to keep her that way.
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Post by bongalak on Dec 20, 2007 21:21:17 GMT -5
You are right in that the Beach was not a "plot" episode. But was it a useless joke episode that aired just for laugh? Maybe, but I'm inclined to believe that the Beach episode, like all other episodes, served a purpose in some way toward establishing character development. Yea, that's it. Character development and reinforcement, I think that's what the Beach was all about.
We know that character development is huge in avatar, and the creators work really hard to get it just right. They've always tried to give us multidimentional characters that we as real multidimentional human beings could relate too. They've done their best to stay away from one-dimensional archtypes that are so prevalent in other cartoons and animes. And so far, they've done a pretty good job I think.
Just look at all the main characters like Aang, Katara, Sokka, Toph, Zuko, Iroh, etc etc. Though they are all protagonists, they've all had their share of antagonist-like moments. All these characters are imperfect in one way or another. Though they are the good guys, they were not always good and made their share of wrong choices every nowa and then. And that's why we love them so much because we know there's always more to them than meets the eyes.
And considering the trend of imperfect, multidimentional characters, I don't see why it's impossible for Azula to be like them. Sure, it's fun to think of her as the perfect villain, with absolutely no good or warmth in her whatsoever. But the creators deliberately showed us her different, more vulnerable sides for a reason. And in light of all those good characters that just weren't perfectly good, I don't think it's too difficult to believe that Azula may not be perfectly bad after all.
And look, no one is arguing that Azula will make a 180 in one episode and turn goody goody all of sudden, that will be ridiculous by almost any standard. But some of us are just saying that there might be more to Azula than that stereotypical psychotic maniac, and that she may be a human being after all. And with what the show has shown us so far, I think the evidences point to her being so.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 20, 2007 21:36:42 GMT -5
They develop characters that NEED developing. Azula is a villain...villains need not development.
Azula is like Zhao and Long Feng. Neither of them had any development...they didn't need it.
Is Azula any more sympathetic than either of them? No...she's worse than both of them put together. So I still say that the creators did NOT deliberately show those scenes in the Beach. It was just for laughs. I'll say with considerable confidence that none of what Azula said or did in the Beach will have any lasting effect on her character. She will end this show as nothing but a villain.
She may turn against Ozai...but would she ever do that for the good of the common man? No...it'd be fore her own personal, selfish reasons.
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