historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
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Post by historyman12 on Feb 5, 2009 19:07:29 GMT -5
This is a theory floating about now, comparing the European's first 30 Years War to World War I and II and the other conflicts. The premise is, Europe's first thirty years' war, which was itself not a one war, but rather, several tied together, and World War I, II, the Spanish Civil War and the Russian Civil War are roughly analogous.
The idea behind the theory is that the war was fought over the "German problem" as well as several new ideologies such as fascism, communism, and Nazism.
I, however, find this theory to be flawed as World War I was the end of an era, that of European kingdoms/feifdoms/nation/empires having a spat every twenty years since 1000. The second half [Russian Civil War (1917-1923) Spanish Civil War (1936-1939) and World War II (1939-1945, of course)] is more plausible, but the idea of World War II being a part of it is damaged by the component of Japan.
Japan was in an entirely different situation, as it was still struggling to find its role and its purpose in a modern world, after modernization. This was complicated by the glorification of the military from the Tokugawa period, and a hatred towards China, which helped bring it into World War II, and a feeling of being cheated by the other Entente (Allied) powers at the end of World War I.
There is also the deeply flawed concept of the "German Problem " as Germany was in no way, shape, manner or form worse than the other powers in World War I, as World War I was hardly the good vs. evil conflict that World War II was, rather, it was whiny siblings fighting, but on a global scale. Further, a nation acting as a belligerent in a single war does not create a "problem" with that nation.
As World War II is the culmination, or rather, expansion of the Spanish Civil War, it makes sense to tie the two together, but the Russian Civil War is a rather odd situation.
The Russian Civil War is in many ways a transitionary war, as it is at once a reverberation against the old system of the Czar, and the creation of a modern state. As such, it is partly tied to World War I, yet not as much to World War II, and tied again to the Cold War.
A last reflection is that World War I led to the end of the Kaiser and the Czar, both named for Caesar (in Germanic/Classical Latin, Caesar is pronounced just the same as Kaiser, and the Czar is Caesar with the first two vowels removed and the s being a z) and World War I in a way ended the Medieval ideas of warfare, not on a tactical level, but rather the continuation of wars every twenty years, and the Medieval period was in a way the result of Rome's falling.
If this made sense, good. If not, say so. Either way, what are your ideas of the "Second Thirty Years War"?
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Post by Grimmjow of the Funk on Feb 5, 2009 19:57:30 GMT -5
I think You have a point especially on the medieval ideas of warfare, but you also have to realize that World War I ended a tactical age as well with the birth of the Machine Gun. besides that however I think it Wasn't until World War II in which these Medieval ideas are gone, with the birth of organizations like the European Union and NATO coming after that and into the modern age, has attributed to the hopeful end of European conflicts every 10 years or so.
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Post by Gran Gran on Feb 5, 2009 23:59:25 GMT -5
I am missing something.... 30 year war was a German problem?
Considering that all European nations had a dog in the fight, not quiet true. German territory was the main battle ground tho. And it was for most parts about religious freedom. Sure, ideology, but of a different nature. And considering that things went a little slower in the 17th century...unlike the 100 year war between France and England it was pretty much 30 years of war.
WWI was the big one to end all wars, after 40 years of relative peace in Europe with great advancements in weapons technology. It was the direct result of botched diplomacy. And IMHO the peace treaties of Paris opened the door for Hitler.
The Russian Revolution was not a pure domestic situation. To stop the war on two fronts, German intelligence managed to return exiled Lenin to Russia to stir things up. For a short time the Duma was controlled by democratic powers but then overrun by the Bolshevics. Taking Russia out of WWI. BTW the defeat of Russia on it's East Coast in a conflict with Japan in 1905 redirected it's attention to the European part, thus drawing it into WWI.
The Spanish Civil war was a testing ground for the world powers, for ideology as well as weaponry. WWII was the sole project of Nazi Germany. If you go back in documented speeches, around 1936 Hitler demands Germany to be war ready within the next 4 years. The Spanish conflict was a welcome chance to test the troops which had been on a mandatory maximum of 100.000 man in arms, no tanks, no planes and no ships of any size.
The connection between Japan and Germany has to be considered on paper only. In the Beginning Germany and Russia had a non attack treaty, which both countries used to swallow up Poland and prepare for the inevidable confrontation.
The pact between Japan and Germany gave Hitler a reason to declare war on the USA after December 7th 1941, to 'legally' shut down US ships carriing supplies to England.
But the 30 year war and the 20th century wars, I don't think they have a whole lot in common.
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
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Post by historyman12 on Feb 9, 2009 21:04:18 GMT -5
I am missing something.... 30 year war was a German problem? Considering that all European nations had a dog in the fight, not quiet true. German territory was the main battle ground tho. And it was for most parts about religious freedom. Sure, ideology, but of a different nature. And considering that things went a little slower in the 17th century...unlike the 100 year war between France and England it was pretty much 30 years of war. The "Second Thirty Years War" is Germany's fault. And the first World War wasn't anyone's fault. Moreso than the treaties, it was the disarmament and outlawing of armies. Honestly, what made them think Germany would disarm just because they said so, when they had no means of enforcing it. And it mightily backfired, as the Soviets became Nazi Germany's fiercest foe. That's what I said. The attacking ships was already happening. The war just gave America an excuse to fight back fiercer.
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Post by Gran Gran on Feb 9, 2009 21:42:24 GMT -5
What are you calling 'The Second 30 Year War'?
You fail to take into the account the general mindset of 1918, people were not ready for democracy, nor willing, they liked the Kaiser and all the pomp that went along.
The treaties were very oppressive and demeaning, though according to the law of the times, the losing country could have very well been divided up between the winners. As it was, large parts of Germany were indeed occupied by France (and they behaved every bit the occupational force) proceeds of the industry went to France and the other allied countries, thus crippling the economy and reparations were initially open ended, in a revised version scheduled to end in 1988. FYI I graduated in 1987 (and before you ask, no, I missed both wars..)
The following depression opened the door for Hitler.
BTW, neither him not Stalin were choir boys. And it was by no means a secret what Hitler was after. It was a calculated move on both sides to keep a truce at the beginning of the war. Hitler to keep Russia off his back and avoid a 2 front war (ailed majorly in WWI as we recall) and Stalin needed the time to get better prepared. In the mean time both inialated Polish infrastructure.
You described the Spanish Civil as the start of WWII, I don't even consider it a prelude.
And while it is true American ships were not intierly safe crossing the Atlantic, having the US in the war made them fair game.
Oh, btw, if cooler heads had prevailed in 1914, with the foresight to push old treaties and contracts asside, WWI might have never happened.
As I recall, lack of support from Serbian police in finding the truth behind the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, the heirs to the Austrian throne in Sarajevo
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Yakuza
Avatar Aang
I've Got A Restrainin' Order Against Satan's Daughter
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Post by Yakuza on Feb 14, 2009 2:18:43 GMT -5
What are you calling 'The Second 30 Year War'? You fail to take into the account the general mindset of 1918, people were not ready for democracy, nor willing, they liked the Kaiser and all the pomp that went along. The treaties were very oppressive and demeaning, though according to the law of the times, the losing country could have very well been divided up between the winners. As it was, large parts of Germany were indeed occupied by France (and they behaved every bit the occupational force) proceeds of the industry went to France and the other allied countries, thus crippling the economy and reparations were initially open ended, in a revised version scheduled to end in 1988. FYI I graduated in 1987 (and before you ask, no, I missed both wars..) The following depression opened the door for Hitler. BTW, neither him not Stalin were choir boys. And it was by no means a secret what Hitler was after. It was a calculated move on both sides to keep a truce at the beginning of the war. Hitler to keep Russia off his back and avoid a 2 front war (ailed majorly in WWI as we recall) and Stalin needed the time to get better prepared. In the mean time both inialated Polish infrastructure. You described the Spanish Civil as the start of WWII, I don't even consider it a prelude. And while it is true American ships were not intierly safe crossing the Atlantic, having the US in the war made them fair game. Oh, btw, if cooler heads had prevailed in 1914, with the foresight to push old treaties and contracts asside, WWI might have never happened. As I recall, lack of support from Serbian police in finding the truth behind the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand and his wife, the heirs to the Austrian throne in Sarajevo Cool heads? In my century? Not gonna happen. World War I was just a stupid war. A war that should have been a south eastern Europe conflict but got dumped on Germany's chest (lulz) so Germany was like "hey I bet we could do a lot better if we were in charge from the beginning" so they started fighting and then they found out they werent. Thats it the end. Caeser was a god.
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