attonbitus
Blue Spirit
I'm in ur clouds, steel'n ur thundar
Posts: 2,121
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Post by attonbitus on Dec 6, 2007 13:58:31 GMT -5
well there's 2 points about the bars when he broke out,
1) the bars are bent outward away from the inside of the cage indicating an outward force started inside the cage 2) there are whole sections of the bar missing indicating that these bars were not only bent apart but completely displaced.
my theory is that he was able to super heat sections of the metal to weaken them then used force (maybe a shoulder rush) to dislodge the missing bar section.
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SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
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Post by SpiritBender on Dec 6, 2007 15:08:54 GMT -5
^^Has it occurred to anyone that Iroh's beefcakeitude (yes, that's a word now) is symbolic? It represents the fact that the Dragon of the West IS in fact coming out of retirement. Iroh knows that it's time for him to fight once again, and him working out is symbolic of his preparation for it. I'd be willing to bet that we're never going to get a full explanation of how exactly Iroh broke out of his cell -- all that's important to know is that he did and he fought his way out like a madman. Soon, we will finally get to see the full extent of what the Dragon of the West is capable of, and this episode served to set up exciting, dramatic things yet to come...
-- SpiritBender
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 6, 2007 15:20:51 GMT -5
didnt i mention that? /slef face palm. but ya, you got to look at the beefcakeitude through the eyes of M&B (which one is the animator again?) if you wanted to show that Iroh underwent a revelation in prison, that he was going to take a different direction then we have previously seen with the Uncle Iroh that is there for zuko support... this would be the perfect way to do it. the beefcakeitude, the "one man army" commet, them showing guards respecting Iroh... all three of these things seem to be forshadowing IMO. EDIT: i almost forgot the canon comicagain... one of the reason's M&B are so great with avatar, is because they dont typically show you things for nothing. if its in the show, its there for a reason... (even if it is just to F*** with our heads in NMaDD)
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lilabby
Katara
I LOVE WINTER!!!!
Posts: 75
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Post by lilabby on Dec 6, 2007 15:27:04 GMT -5
I think Iroh's going to stop being a support character for Zuko and will get his own story line. I mean, it's about time his character got his own storyline. Iroh's character has always had the potential to being more than just support for Zuko.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 7, 2007 16:02:59 GMT -5
Sure there's a freaking way Iroh did that with his bare hands...that's why he was working out. We've seen characters do amazing things physically...in The Winter Solstice part 1. Zuko kicked aside a huge rock just before it crushed Iroh's hands with his bare foot. Scrawny lil Zuko. These folks are strong, and Iroh's strongest.
Again, logically, the firenation would not have put Iroh in a cell that's not safeguarded against bending. But what they didn't expect is crazystrong old man muscles.
It took Zuko a short amount of time to run up the tower because the guards are all down. As I said, it probably took Iroh a minute or two to break the bars, and then a few minutes to fight his way down through scores of guards.
And Zuko didn't go right from talking to Ozai to the prison. Remember The Headband? The prison is outside of the volcano...outside of the royal city. It probably took Zuko 10-15 minutes to get there.
And I get that, if we're going by reputation and resume, Iroh is the best to lead troops. But I say again...NARRATIVELY, as in for the benefit of the impact of the characters and story, I think that Zuko's redemptive path ends with him being the one to make a new, better Fire Nation, and thus being the Fire Lord, and therefore I think it's more meaningful to have him leading troops of FN citizens.
Example: Hakoda was exceptionally better suited to lead troops. But when he got injured, Sokka stepped up. Not Bato...Sokka. Because it's progressive for his character.
Zuko leading them, in my eyes, is more meaningful than Iroh doing it.
And no, I don't want to bet. This is just like the "Azula as Fire Lord" theory to me. Plausible, possible, but I have too much doubt to support it.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 7, 2007 17:02:46 GMT -5
Sure there's a freaking way Iroh did that with his bare hands...that's why he was working out. We've seen characters do amazing things physically...in The Winter Solstice part 1. Zuko kicked aside a huge rock just before it crushed Iroh's hands with his bare foot. Scrawny lil Zuko. These folks are strong, and Iroh's strongest.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 7, 2007 17:14:18 GMT -5
I don't think we'll ever agree on the manner of Iroh's escape, and since neither of us really know for sure I think it's a lost cause.
But there's got to be a better reason for the muscles than to LOOK good.
My point with Sokka is that there were other characters who would have made more sense to lead troops, but the writers chose HIM. Because it's more meaningful. It's better for the story. That's why I support Fire Lord Zuko...it has more meaning, imo.
As for Iroh's redemption, I always took that to be based entirely around Zuko to this point. The writers have even said aloud that, since Iroh lost his son, he focuses on making Zuko into a good person almost to make up for his past.
I don't think Iroh really has anything to make up for in regards to the Fire Nation. The worst thing he did was not challenge Ozai's rise to the throne. But then, that probably would have brought a civil war and even more chaos so...
To me, this show's all about the young heroes making the big difference. The kids are the main characters. Iroh is, pure and simple, not as important a character in the story as Zuko is.
Who's chicken? I'm saying right out that I'm not confident enough in this to bet.
I already agreed I would write a Sokkla fanfiction if Azula is redeemed, which is pretty bad for me. And I'm pretty sure that grandmaster owes me some karma now that Zuko's ran away. But like I said...I don't think Azula usurp Ozai, but I'm not firm enough in that to bet any limbs. Same here.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 7, 2007 17:39:43 GMT -5
My point with Sokka is that there were other characters who would have made more sense to lead troops, but the writers chose HIM. Because it's more meaningful. It's better for the story. That's why I support Fire Lord Zuko...it has more meaning, imo. You know why it was more meaningful for Sokka's character? Because since episode one, M&M have shown Sokka's story to be biased around his development as a leader and a warrior. Zuko's story has been like that at all. Its about moral redemption... for zoko to do what sokka did, only on a MUCH bigger scale, would be pretty dang random IMO... first he has to recive forgiveness from the gaang, complete his parallel with aang who still needs to learn firebending, find Ursa, ect... ya, we all know that season 1-2 Iroh was all about getting Zuko to see the light... obviously, that is no longer the case for many reasons that i have already stated... but ill briefly remind you anyways. Zuko already being on the right path, M&B not having Iroh wait fro zuko, the foreshadowing elements, post-"headband" interview with Mike that shows that Iroh's redemption path will be a new one that we have not seen, ect... (i would like it if you dont make me repeat myself again... address it or accept it) well, Mike thinks differently... and thats the whole point. Iroh now realizes that a brief civil war followed by piece is much better then a end to a 100 year war that ends in near-genocide and perpetual fear. its a kids show... which means the "young heroes" will get more screen time... which is anoter reason why Zuko will share screen time with aang while they hear mysterious reports of growing decent withing the FN, rumored to be lead by the dragon of the west. ... and you called Iroh simple? the guy who has been to the spirit world for unknown reasons? the guy who has the most intericate and mysterious past of anyone on the show? Iroh is the symbol if wisdom on the show... and of hidden power... how could you call a guy like that simple? I am... but i was just teasen you with the whole chicken thing.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 7, 2007 19:47:11 GMT -5
Sokka hasn't been foreshadowed as a leader until the second half of season two. Zuko's been prince since we've known him. Sort of a guarantee of eventual ruling, yes? But will he be after Ozai, or will Iroh?
I say Zuko. Make up for his family. Remember what Iroh told Zuko in The Avatar and the Fire Lord?
He said that Zuko and Zuko alone was the one with the power to redeem the Fire Nation. That's pretty darn clear, my friend. IROH said that Zuko had to be the one to redeem them. And I think he will.
And what did Mike say? That obscure sentence that Iroh is planning something? That could just as easily have referenced his escape.
I didn't call Iroh simple. "Pure and simple" is a turn of phrase. I was saying that my opinion is simple: Zuko is a more important character than Iroh is.
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Pleading Eyes
Kyoshi Mai
I feel violated... and crispy
Posts: 2,327
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Post by Pleading Eyes on Dec 7, 2007 19:57:23 GMT -5
I don't get why so many people think the entirerity of Zuko's storyline has been redemption. It hasn't.
Zuko wasn't a bad guy until the end of CoD.
Season 1 he was the main antagonist, but he was NOT a bad guy. He was just doing what he thought was right by his country, doing what it took to restore his honor, doing what it took to serve his father and Fire Lord.
Season 2 Zuko was no longer the main antagonist, and still not a bad guy. He wasn't on a path for redemption, because he hadn't done anything WRONG. Everything he had done, he had believed to be in the best interest of his nation. He didn't know that his nation was the "bad guy". Season 2 is when he starts to realize that what his nation is doing is wrong. He is on a path of self-discovery, not redemption!
The season 2 finale is what changed this. When, after realizing what his nation was doing was wrong, he still CHOSE to side with Azula, THEN he became a "bad guy". This is when he took the wrong path and had to be redeemed.
It is only in season 3 that Zuko has set on a path for redemption. Before CoD, he had nothing to redeem himself for!
So why do people use this argument against Zuko becoming Fire Lord? I think he's the prefect candidate to become the next Fire Lord. Iroh has been grooming Zuko for this since the beginning, teaching him about balance, rest, and the importance of the four nations.
Personally, I think Iroh wants Zuko to be Fire Lord. And what reason has the show given us not to agree?
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Arsid
Zhao
Pure Pwnage!
Posts: 844
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Post by Arsid on Dec 7, 2007 20:25:20 GMT -5
I agree with Pleading Eyes. Zuko didn't think what he was doing was bad. He was just doing what he though was for the good of the nation. Like he said in DoBS, he grew up thinking that the war was the fire nation way of spreading their greatness. But now he's figured out that nobody likes the fire nation. That they are hated and despised. He now knows that the fire nation is completely wrong in their teachings. This is why he is joining the avatar now. In the first season he just thought "Hey, the avatar is hurting my country/nation. I'm going to take him down." and that's what he did.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 7, 2007 20:43:09 GMT -5
Sokka hasn't been foreshadowed as a leader until the second half of season two. you serious? what about like, the very first episode of avatar? "the other men are away, so im in charge, i have to train todlers for an attack, protect family from this bald strange kid...all that jaz" or perhaps you should watch Jet. that whole episode was pretty much about sokka's role as the "leader" of the gaang and his instincts. I could do more first off, regardless of weather or not Zuko will rule does not matter. It is not what M&B have been working his story towards. Its about his redemption and how it is on a more personal level. secondly, I have already said that Iroh could give up the crown to Zuko at the end of the season... regardless of what direction Iroh takes. who will be firelord has absolutely nothing with what direction Iroh will take, so lets keep it on topic... you can drag up that old tread if you want. (its 50/50 for me in that regard btw) we have already established that Zuko will redeem himself and the Firenation... Zuko isnt going to be the only one to help bring down Ozi and restore balance... there is still the gaang (which zuko is going to become apart of... another major thing you havent addressed.) and Iroh and others... Iroh is coing to contribute just like zuko. as ive said before Zukos redemption story can easily be accomplished by gaining the gAangs trust, training Aang, Finding Ursa, and defeating Azula... and lets be honest here, Zuko really doesnt have time to train and recruit a rebellion on top of that... Mike said that Iroh did alot of self reflection in prison about his whole life and about how he felt like a failure... Logically, If Iroh self-reflected on the direction he had been taking his life, felt like he had failed in his duty somehow, then suddenly got a burst of inspiration to work out (remember, his physical transformation also symbolic for change)... then it stands to reason he is going to be going about redemption a different way... or, logic could say taht Iroh felt like a failure, decided taht he was a failure, but at least wanted to live it up outside the big house... but i dont think anyone of us belive that... anyways, the more i talk about "General Zuko" the more ridiculous it sounds... even if i havent proven that Iroh will Rise up and unite the FN aganst the establishment aganst Ozi for a second invasion by the gaang, i have talked enough about how Zuko will not do that. lets saty on-topic from now on and discuss Iroh's direction for post-DOBS... not zuko's. If you want to make a thread where you propose that Zuko raises a FN rebellion, thats fine, But lets stay on-topic from here on out EDIT @ Pleading Eyes: *reads Pleading Eyes' post*....*palms forhead* O, Common! your susposed to help keep this on-topic.
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Pleading Eyes
Kyoshi Mai
I feel violated... and crispy
Posts: 2,327
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Post by Pleading Eyes on Dec 7, 2007 20:52:58 GMT -5
[quote author=benjamin board=theories thread=1196484471 post=1197078189 *reads Pleading Eyes' post*....*palms forhead* O, Common! your susposed to help keep this on-topic. [/quote] XD I know... Sorry... I warned those admins I have a terrible tendency to go off-topic, but they insisted! Anyway, my post wasn't ALL off-topic. I did mention that Iroh is the one who wants Zuko to by Fire Lord. Hence why he has been teaching him about balance, rest, the importance of the four nations, and even about his blood ties to Roku. Iroh said it himself. "In you Zuko... lies the power to restore balance." If that doesn't prove Iroh wants to make Zuko firelord, I don't know what does. Iroh has never shown any interest in becoming Fire Lord himself. And I doubt he's suddenly going to change his mind now just because he's beefed up.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 7, 2007 22:09:10 GMT -5
but this is not the thread of who will become firelord. there is already a thread for that hereIf Iroh comes out of retirement and starts a sort of rebellion for the gaang, Zuko could still become firelord. all Iroh has to do is give his endorsement...
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Post by conspiracytheorist on Dec 7, 2007 23:30:25 GMT -5
Season 1 he was the main antagonist, but he was NOT a bad guy. He was just doing what he thought was right by his country, doing what it took to restore his honor, doing what it took to serve his father and Fire Lord. "Doing what you think is right" isn't a get out of jail free card for trying to stop the world's last hope for peace from doing his duty. Zuko's daddy issues don't make him "not a bad guy." A man's intentions don't determine the rightness or wrongness of his actions. His actions have to do that for themselves, and Zuko's make him a bad guy.
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