Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 2, 2007 20:22:52 GMT -5
as we know from flashbacks, Iroh wasnt always fat... which is partially why i belive what i do. Iroh looks more like his old legendary self, it wasnt till after the death of his son that he let himself go. Personally, I think it's going to help his firebending. To take down Azula, he needs to move faster, and he couldn't do that carrying extra "junk in his trunk". a possibility, but it seems like taking down azula would be something zuko would do. zuko will be a much better firebender now that he has resolved the conflict within... the perfect way to show that would be settling his old score with azula... it would also perfectly parallel aang's fight with Ozi. besides, Iroh could take out azula just fine with "junk in his trunk"... you can say she wasnt ready. but he still rendered her most powerful move useless, grabbed her arm, and batted her away like it was nothing.
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Post by thelastavatar on Dec 2, 2007 20:31:35 GMT -5
From what I saw in DOBS, it looked like Azula was only gunning after Zuko in Avatar State, and wasn't expecting her "fuddy-duddy" uncle to interfere. The fact that he did was only because he had surprise on his side. Don't get me wrong, I think he could take down Azula no problem. However, Azula moving around so quickly would make her a hard target, so if he did ever face her, if he can match her in the field of speed, then he would own her 1 2 3.
It may be that Zuko is going to take down Azula, it is definitely a possibility. But would that mean Iroh would need to take on the rest of the numerous firebenders there? If so, he will need stamina, which he built up with all his exercising.
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SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
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Post by SpiritBender on Dec 2, 2007 20:58:20 GMT -5
Looking at the few times we actually have seen Iroh fight, I don't think matching Azula's speed would be a problem for him. He might not be able to do all the fancy aerial acrobatics that Azula can, but I don't think it would matter. His knowledge of firebending (and fighting in general) is so far advanced beyond Azula's that he would smack her (and daddy dearest if they ever actually fought) down so badly that it would make Azula look like a beginner! However, the story really demands that Zuko be the one to take her down. Azula has had it coming from Zuko for a long time, and it would really go to show that the greater bender is the one who understands the balance of all the elements and fights from the heart -- not just for the sake of ambition.
Zuko said it himself -- it is the Avatar's destiny to take down the firelord. However, I believe that Iroh has an important role to play. Not only to assist in teaching Aang, but to gather world-wide support for the final showdown. I'm also still entertaining the idea that Azula may be the final firelord who gets taken down. At this point, I think it could go either way. Ozai has shown himself to basically be an older, male version of Azula. I think it would serve poetic justice if he got taken down by his daughter in way similarly treacherous to Azulon's demise, and it would also follow suit with Azula's vastly greater visibility as villain. I've had this idea ever since The Chase back in season 2 that the scene with the Gaang + Zuko and Iroh all cornering Azula foreshadowed what will happen at the end of the series.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 2, 2007 21:04:57 GMT -5
we have never seen Iroh tired in combat. he took out those 50 or so guards, and when he went to take out azula, he hadnt even broken a sweat.
but you can alwys still get faster and i will accept it as an acceptable alternative to inspiration. (even though Iroh was only doing strength training, no jumping jacks or running in place.)
but there is still the matter of M&B stating that Iroh would seek out another means of redemption and Iroh is not traveling with zuko. and Iroh being the best suited to get the people of the FN to support the avatar in a move against Ozi. and how they have gone out of their way with Ming (was that the guards name?), to show that FN military still respect and follow him... seriously, Iroh piratically ordered her to leave because he was going to break out.
... i think there was more, but ive got work ive been putting off
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Post by thelastavatar on Dec 2, 2007 22:13:08 GMT -5
I wonder if the redemption he is looking for came from the death of his son, his journey into the spirit world, or both?
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 2, 2007 23:37:49 GMT -5
both contributed... but i think he feels a great amount of regret/guilt (we know Iroh has let go of his shame by now) in the knowledge that this whole war could have been stopped, if he had just fought to keep the crown away from his psychopathic brother.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Dec 3, 2007 3:20:54 GMT -5
who said anything about him going into battle shirtless? please dont put words in people's mouths. and if you have a better idea other then inspiration, feel free to suggest it. because we already konw that it wasnt to break out of prison, for the reasons already discussed above ... and i know that link wasnt what anyone was thinking... its just funny. I said shirtless because, in full armor, it's impossible to notice the muscles. So...that makes your suggestion really odd, imo. I'm sorry, but Iroh getting buff just to look inspirational is one of the strangest things I've ever heard. I get this ridiculous image of him strutting around like a rooster. What kind of nutty chooses who he follows into battle entirely on their pecs? Heck, Iroh was chubby in the height of his military career. So...no. Clearly it WAS to escape. There's nothing that suggests he did any bending in his break out, and, given the circumstances, I feel safe in assuming that he waited for the eclipse to bust out. Now...of course Iroh will play an important role, I just really do not think he will be Fire Lord or become the big leader of the Fire Nation. I very well could be wrong, but the man retired from war and politics long ago. Zuko's turn.
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attonbitus
Blue Spirit
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Post by attonbitus on Dec 3, 2007 10:40:48 GMT -5
I'll just point out that Agni Kai is done shirtless OH and here's my guess. Iroh will be the one to take down Combustion Man. Obviously Iroh needs a strong opponent to face off with. As the others have pointed out, Aang has to fight Ozai, Zuko will probably fight Azula. So who's left? Just CM Though I would love to see an agni kai (iroh vs jeong jeong) for control of the FN rebels. However, that's highly unlikely
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 3, 2007 12:44:41 GMT -5
I said shirtless because, in full armor, it's impossible to notice the muscles. So...that makes your suggestion really odd, imo. no, its not... weve seen Fat Iroh in FN military armor/grab... and we can definitely notice. the common grunt... who is very important. and the "legend look" is there only to reinforce his legendary stories... at least for the males, we know that the FN has many female military solders ... j/k j/k no, he wasnt. the only time weve seen chubby Iroh in a flashback was when he was seen with zuko in "the storm", which was post-military Iroh. (although we cant see Iroh's physique when he is sitting down in the "zuko alone" flashback) did you even read the previous posts? there are major points of evidence that suggest that Iroh broke out before the eclipse. note the giant chunks of rock missing, and evidence of explosions that took place... almost like people were launching fire attacks at someone coming out of the prison... yes, there was definitely much firebending going on. these bars are not just bent to allow Iroh to walk out... they were clearly blown away from the inside out. zuko came to rescue Iroh directly after the end of the eclipse... there are craters and evidence of firebending... yet there is no smoke. also, Iroh took the time to Tie up the guards, and they are drooling from the effects of aftershock by the time Zuko gets there... all of these things are shown for a reason, to show that this happened a while before Zuko got there. further, the guard called him a "one-man army (forshadow much?) a "one man army" would have the ability to do something other then bend bars and run IMO. ya, i kinda expected that your love for zuko might have something to do with this... Zuko has ALOT of making up to do before he can earn the trust of the gaang, let alone gain enough trust and respect from a whole nation of people to unite them against their ruler... espically if they realize he has no experience in military matters... which they would.
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Post by gryphonz on Dec 3, 2007 15:25:41 GMT -5
Earlier comments argued that if Iroh were to become a 'general' again, he would not need to get buff. You'll have to take Asian cultural norms about generals into account here.
Often in Chinese culture, the 2 opposing generals would ride out to the middle of the battlefield and fight until one was defeated, to break the morale of the opposing army. Only then would the troops join in battle. The general would basically have to be the strongest man in his army. Also, the general was responsible for the training of his troops and teaching them techniques. If a general won, his troops would interpret that as a sign that their techniques were better than the other army's. I dunno about how it worked for other Asian countries.
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Post by thelastavatar on Dec 3, 2007 16:16:06 GMT -5
lol, way to point the Agni Kai thing attonbitus. So you're saying that Iroh is now in a competition to get fangirls? Wow the fangirl race is getting crowded
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attonbitus
Blue Spirit
I'm in ur clouds, steel'n ur thundar
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Post by attonbitus on Dec 4, 2007 9:53:45 GMT -5
Pleaz Iroh OWNS the fangirls race. He's funny, nice, and now BUFF too. Plus he's not wishy washy/emofest like zuko. But yeah, i see agni kai as a way to assert dominance/rank when there's some type of conflict in opinions or leadership. I wonder if iroh could challenge leaders of various FN division and the loser would have to give control of his troops to the other.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 5, 2007 17:09:47 GMT -5
yes, it is strange, but the Iroh thread has seen a dramatic increase of fangirls after "the headband" aired... poor aang, he was at his most pimp in that episode, but Iroh still overshadowed him... anyways, i think this song perfectly reflects Irohs relationship with how he views his "general self". first, he discovers that the fight is not worth fighting, then he tries to get the young (mainly Zuko in the show) to enjoy all that life has to offer, and he then realizes that he still has a duty to do, he still must prepare to fight one last time if they young are to live a good live. .. its not an exact interpretation of my theory, but its close.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Dec 5, 2007 22:44:09 GMT -5
So...you really, truly, honestly think that the single only reason Iroh became buff was to look impressive? Jesus, lol.
That is...really silly to put so much emphasis on in Sokka's Master for a pretty irrelevant detail. A character design overhal for such a rediculous reason...Sokka's starting to lead invasions and he's still a stick boy. His dad was pretty thin and so was Bato. No...just...no.
Now..here's General Iroh at the height of his career. His waistline is significantly larger than the other armored soldiers we've seen, wouldn't you say? Can we even tell if he's buff? No.
So again, unless you're saying Iroh's going into battle shirtless....there HAS to be a better, more sensible reason to his workout sessions.
And I still hold that it was his breakout.
How coudl Iroh have broken out of his bars without firebending? How could he have done it WITH firebending?? What amount of flame could cause such an explosion against metal bars without just going right through them? Any such explosion would have hurt Iroh as well.
Look at the bars. Are the melted? No. And remember his reputation...would the firenation be so stupid as to put one of the most famed fighters in the world into a prison that can't withstand fire?
Rediculous. But...what they didn't account for...is Iroh's insane kung fu skills. So yes, I say he did that with his bare hands. How? He's the goddang Dragon of the West is how. We've seen him kick aside a swinging iron ball on a chain with his foot, something that should have broken his ankel, and been fine.
As for the holes outside the prison. That's just where they are...OUTSIDE. The eclipse lasts 8 minutes. Imagine Iroh starts his break-out when he knows he can't bend. I figure it takes him a few minutes to break through the bars. Then a few more minutes to fight his way outside. By the time he's out, eclipse is done, and he's shooting back at people following him.
Lastly...it's not love for Zuko that makes me think he should be Fire Lord. Sokka's my favorite character but I don't think he should be the new chief of the Southern Water Tribe. I've already explained at great lengths to you why I think it's more appropriate to the story to have Zuko be the next Fire Lord.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 6, 2007 1:31:37 GMT -5
those bars are not bent, they didnt go into detail with the melted metal, i would have been very surprised if they had... anyways, there would have been no possible reason for Iroh to try to cause that much damage to his cell bars with his bare hands, let alone be able to do it... look at the screen again. there is NO FREAKEN WAY that Iroh did that with his hands... im not saying its impossible for him to do so, but that gap in the cell bars is at least twice as tall and wide as Iroh is. So why the hell would Iroh bother? and, it took seconds for Zuko to get from outside, to the cell. There is no way It took Iroh eight minutes... and, Zuko was there right after the eclipse ended. Iroh would still be Fighting firebenders by the time zuko arrived by your estimate... and not only was There no sign of Iroh or fighting, but there was no smoke, and the mentioned mental condition of the guards... and there is still the comment about a "one man army"
and no, you do not Need to be buff to inspire troops... but it helps, as others have already mentioned... (and drop this "Iroh would have to be shirtless for anything to notice" thing, Iroh had to stuff his baggy robe not to get noticed)
However, i do agree that it is odd that Ozi placed Iroh in such low security. i hope they address that... perhaps It was meant as some sort of bait for Zuko? Maby Ozi had some form of blackmail on Iroh?... I dont know.
I fully realize that Iroh being Buff for inspiritaion is the weakest part in my argument, but the on-screen evidence shows us that it wasn't to escape, and i have no better explanation...
But even if i concede that the only reason M&B took Iroh through this dramatic overhaul was to break out of prison (even though they could have had him break out a million different ways) that does not hurt my argument as a whole...
There is still that, the gaang will need the support of the FN to bring balance to the world... Iroh is best suited to, at least temporarily, do that (after DOBS i could see zuko being firelord right after Ozi) There is still the issue of Iroh's "redemption", and how it is now clear that Zuko and Iroh have parted ways till the end series. The respect and prestige M&B has shown the FN to have for Iroh. and That only Iroh has military and leadership experience for a possible rebellion force
I had more, but im tired and the above should be enough and self-evident...
If you still want to contest this, i suggest a bet. If Iroh Takes up any sort of militant action against Ozi with the help of FN citizens, then you have to put in your sig, something of my choosing. for a month. If Iroh does not do this, but instead (fill in the blank), then I will put in my sig a message of you choosing... and ill give you a bunch of karma to boot.
you game?
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