SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
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Post by SpiritBender on May 28, 2008 13:36:28 GMT -5
^^Ozai didn't plead with Zuko to fight; he commanded Zuko to fight. The fact that Ozai would even put Zuko in such a position means that Ozai was only concerned with how Zuko's actions reflected on the royal family's image, and not about Zuko himself in the slightest. In the DoBS, when Zuko declared his intentions to Ozai, Ozai attempted to execute him without the slightest hesitation. In fact, rather than letting Zuko leave, Ozai baited him and manipulated specifically for the purpose of having the opportunity to kill Zuko. It absolutely blows my mind that people are still asking this question. One of the defining characteristics of Ozai/Azula is that people like them completely lack the capacity for love and empathy. They may have emotions that superficially resemble love, but no real love. Anyone who would think that Ozai has some sort of "love" for Zuko has obviously never experienced real love themselves. Most parents who have any regard for their children whatsoever would sooner give their own life than let harm come to their children, let alone willingly inflict it upon their children themselves.
-- SpiritBender
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Post by avatarjanicki on May 28, 2008 18:15:22 GMT -5
Nope, it's even true in today's society that one parent favors a child over another child.
Ozai never really cared for Zuko.
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xtal
Sokka
The best pill poppin' misanthrope.
Posts: 146
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Post by xtal on May 30, 2008 1:17:46 GMT -5
I agree with Pleading Eyes and kibitzertriplet... I think Ozai COULD love Zuko in some strange twisted way. Keep in mind that a parent always has a connection with their child. Also, I think some of you may be too narrow in your particular views by saying "Oh well Ozai hurt Zuko and that MUST mean that Ozai hates him!". Things aren't that simple, and these type of relationships are rather complex. Now, It could be that Ozai is messed up mentally, and that can make it very hard on a person to show emotions such as love, but that doesn't mean he doesn't feel them. Both Azula and Ozai seem to exhibit signs of Sociopathy, and most sociopaths do not have good or normal social relationships and its hard for them to convey their feelings(or even feel certain feelings), and they are also rather manipulative. This could also be a sort of Love/Hate relationship...Ozai could love Zuko but for reasons or ideals we are not really aware of cause Ozai to hate him and the hate usually ends up be exhibited more often than the love...Take for example the movie "American Beauty"...In that you have a father and son, the father is an Ex-military man who is seemingly homophobic and abusive, he beats up his son on many occaisions but he does it to teach his boy responsibility and discipline (we can agree that that is not the best way to do it, but the father in his strange way thought it was) when the boy tell his dad he is gay (hes not really, you'd just have to watch the movie! ) his father beats him up again and tells him to get out and never return. At first it looks like he is without remorse...later you see him break down weeping. He also kills the next door neighbor because he thought he and his son were in a 'relationship' (again not true, you'd have to watch it). He kills him for his son...so I would call that love. Sick Twisted messed up love? Yes. But, its still love. Am I over analyzing this a bit? Bwuahaha Also...sorry for the kinda sorta text wall...call me a psychology buff. p.s. ...Ozai is HAWT! =O
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Silver-Angel!
Meng
"Time is a great teacher. To bad it kills all of it's students."
Posts: 253
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Post by Silver-Angel! on May 30, 2008 14:48:26 GMT -5
Really, this is a silly question to ask, and its even sillier to try and defend Ozai by saying he does somehow "love" Zuko. Not only does he not love Zuko, but he doesn't Ozai love anyone. From what we've seen his whole family has been messed up from the start. Sozin killed his best friend for more power. Ozai sold his brother out, for what? More power. All he cares about is being the strongest and reigning over everyone. I think that it's pretty obvious that he doesn't "love" Zuko, he doesn't "love" Ursa, and he doesn't "love" Iroh. They are just tools to him. Otherwise he wouldn't have banished his spouse, and his only son away. Just think about it logically. Zuko was brought back into his positon as prince because Ozai thought the Avatar was dead. That's the only reason. His main threat was gone, and his son was the one who killed him. That made him "useful" again; to him, and his own image in the eyes of his followers. If he truly loved his son, he wouldn't have ever banished him away for being "a failure" and only bring him back if he could do something that would improve his grip over the Fire Nation and the World. He would accept him for who he was, no matter what. The only person he might have a shread of "love" for (and when I say love I mean in a twisted, "They are still useful" kind of way) is Azula, because she is cold, ruthless, and insanely powerful like him. Other then that he just loves himself, or maybe even just his own power.
Besides, even if, like some of you guys are saying, his so called love is just his type of love, and its just complex and twisted, it doesn't matter. If the love is twisted, its not love anymore is it?
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Post by pennyxdreadful on May 30, 2008 17:33:41 GMT -5
zomgozaiwut? No, of course he doesn't love Zuko. From glancing over the thread, it seems I'm on the same page with most of you. I have, however, noticed that some people genuinely believe parents are incapable of not loving their children even if it's deep down... really, really... really deep down inside. Allow me to pull the, my parents certainly didn't love me card. After some long, hard years of thought on the matter, I realized that the mild concern they seemed to show for me wasn't some twisted, deep-down love; it was obligation. Society makes you feel like you MUST love your children, which accounts for very awkward and rare displays of affection in abusive households. But, I digress... I don't think Ozai is quite that complicated. He just wants power and respect... and, perhaps, a pony. He's pretty detached from the concept of family in the loving sense, and much more focused on the big picture.
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Post by dragonflly on May 31, 2008 2:23:50 GMT -5
^^Ozai didn't plead with Zuko to fight; he commanded Zuko to fight. The fact that Ozai would even put Zuko in such a position means that Ozai was only concerned with how Zuko's actions reflected on the royal family's image, and not about Zuko himself in the slightest. In the DoBS, when Zuko declared his intentions to Ozai, Ozai attempted to execute him without the slightest hesitation. In fact, rather than letting Zuko leave, Ozai baited him and manipulated specifically for the purpose of having the opportunity to kill Zuko. It absolutely blows my mind that people are still asking this question. One of the defining characteristics of Ozai/Azula is that people like them completely lack the capacity for love and empathy. They may have emotions that superficially resemble love, but no real love. Anyone who would think that Ozai has some sort of "love" for Zuko has obviously never experienced real love themselves. Most parents who have any regard for their children whatsoever would sooner give their own life than let harm come to their children, let alone willingly inflict it upon their children themselves. -- SpiritBender And this is why I love this guy!!! You say what I long to say, only you say it with style, grace, and intelligance. You are a genius. I have just been reminded why I love reading your posts and made me realize how much I've missed you on this board! *karma* for you, my friend. I have a 4 month old little girl and I would die before I would let anything happen to her. It makes me sick to think that there are people who defend Ozai and try to justify his actions. There are people in our world who do horrible things to real people, will you try to defend these people? If anyone can possibly think that trying to kill your child is a kind of display of affection, please do not reproduce. Society does not make us feel that we MUST love our children; the love a parent feels for a child is unconditional. Society will not influence me to love or hate my kids, I decide. I still cannot fathom what would make anyone thing that Ozai cared for his son in the least bit. The man is not insane or unstable, he is cold, uncaring and ruthless. He is a power hungry who cares for nothing except more power. M&B said that his marriage to Ursa did not start out the way it ended, so everyone thinks he loved her. He BANISHED/possibly KILLED the woman even though she helped him achieve what he wanted. He let his own FATHER be killed to gain power, and betrayed his brother. He's tried to kill Zuko twice, and went out of his way to make sure Zuko never came home.(He promoted Zhao and gave him the means to find Aang first, do we really think it was for any reason other than keeping Zuko from completing his task? I think not.) There is no regard or love for anyone but himself. Now, where exactly is the part where he shows concern for anything other than his rise to power or his gain? NOWHERE, that's right. Not one person can give a reasonable thought as to why Ozai really loved Zuko, they just don't want him to be as coldhearted and evil as he is. Trying to defend this man is like trying to defend the devil himself. Reread spiritbender's post; every word is true. He says things so much better than I ever could, but every word. As with him, it blows my mind as to how the question is still being asked and why people still defend Ozai. I know my post is a bit long, and will tick some of you off and I'm sorry, but being a parent myself, this is one subject that always makes my blood boil!!! I hope I didn't offend anyone, but this question should really be a no brainer!!!!
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xtal
Sokka
The best pill poppin' misanthrope.
Posts: 146
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Post by xtal on May 31, 2008 21:42:00 GMT -5
Just because you are a mother dragonfly doesn't give you a right to be condescending about your opinions and denouncing anyone with a opinion different than your own by saying we "shouldnt reproduce". Pardon me if I don't view everyone on earth whos done bad things as "monsters". They may have done horrible things, but they are still human. Just like you, just like me. Then again maybe theres something wrong with me. Anyhoo, It could go either way for me, keep in mind I said Ozai COULD love him, as in a possibility, I also admit the possibility that Ozai might NOT love him. I never said anything definate...why? Because we simply havent seen ENOUGH of Ozai in the series. Keep in mind Azula only appeard one dimensional until The Beach, then she gained a bit of humanity. Why can't the same happen for Ozai I say... Also...its a bloody cartoon! Theres nothing wrong with analyzing a fictional characters psychology. Its fun, and it opens you up to things you might not have thought of before...at least for me. Don't get your knickers in a twist over it.
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
Icon by hermonthis from livejournal
Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on May 31, 2008 23:03:05 GMT -5
I think that Ozai loves what Zuko could do for him, and that also applies to Azula--because in truth I don't think he loves either of his children, but I could be wrong.
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silentxorchestra
Aang
Shoot for the moon, even if you miss you'll land among the stars.
Posts: 54
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Post by silentxorchestra on Jun 1, 2008 16:28:38 GMT -5
I don't know if Ozai is even capable of love.... In fairness he isn't a very developed character, but from what we've seen he is very cold and power hungry. He is willing to murder his own flesh and blood just to obtain the throne. Sure, it's been said he must have loved Ursa once. But he didn't seem to care when she left so... He loves power and conquering other nations, but not Zuko. I don't think he even loves Azula, sure he prefers her because she's a better firebender but if he had to kill her too he would
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Post by dragonflly on Jun 4, 2008 22:45:25 GMT -5
Just because you are a mother dragonfly doesn't give you a right to be condescending about your opinions and denouncing anyone with a opinion different than your own by saying we "shouldnt reproduce". Pardon me if I don't view everyone on earth whos done bad things as "monsters". They may have done horrible things, but they are still human. Just like you, just like me. Then again maybe theres something wrong with me. Anyhoo, It could go either way for me, keep in mind I said Ozai COULD love him, as in a possibility, I also admit the possibility that Ozai might NOT love him. I never said anything definate...why? Because we simply havent seen ENOUGH of Ozai in the series. Keep in mind Azula only appeard one dimensional until The Beach, then she gained a bit of humanity. Why can't the same happen for Ozai I say... Also...its a bloody cartoon! Theres nothing wrong with analyzing a fictional characters psychology. Its fun, and it opens you up to things you might not have thought of before...at least for me. Don't get your knickers in a twist over it. First off, I wasn't trying to be condescending, I just stated what I felt, ya know MY OPINION, and I am allowed to have one, and no, no one has to agree, but I have a right to say what's on my mind. An it is in MY OPINION that people who feel that trying to kill your own child is a sign of affection, shouldn't reproduce. It's kinda scary to think that someone with that mentality would have a child, isn't it? I would fear for the saftey and well-being of that child until it could leave the home on it's own at adulthood. It is just a scary thought. And I don't believe I called anyone a monster. There is a difference between "bad" and "horrible". Murder, rape, torture, child abuse, pedophiles.....those people are horrible and depending on the severity of the crimes, maybe I would call them monsters, MAYBE. Sure they are human, but these aren't mistakes, they are crimes, mostly premeditated, and everyone has the instilled knowledge of right and wrong. I could go all religiony on this, but I won't. Azula, IMO, never gained any humanity with me, she's a demon, obsessed with power and doesn't love.........just like her dad. Being a mother has opened my eyes to alot of things I used to scoff at. Having a child puts you in protection mode from day one, ya just can't help it. And yes, her father is in the same mode as myself. I'm sure it's not the same for everyone, I'm sure that the levels vary, but I now understand all the crap that my parents used to do, say, and prohibit me from doing. So basically, my view of Ozai comes from my experience. He's tried to kill Zuko twice, without hesitation or remorse, he's rid his home of the child with no prospect of him returning, has shown no affection towards Zuko, banished his wife, had his father killed, betrayed his brother.......did I miss anything? Heck he hasn't even shown Azula any affection, just pride. Does Ozai love Zuko, IMHO, no way in hell. I don't think Ozai is capable of loving anything but himself and his power. This comes from a mom's POV, no one has to agree with me, it won't hurt my feelings, but being a mom, there's just no doubt in my mind. And BTW, I know it's a cartoon. The thread was started for a debate, that's what I am doing, debating, discussing. I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to read other's opinions on the subject. So my knickers weren't in a twist, but there are starting to get there.
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xtal
Sokka
The best pill poppin' misanthrope.
Posts: 146
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Post by xtal on Jun 5, 2008 0:39:04 GMT -5
Just because you are a mother dragonfly doesn't give you a right to be condescending about your opinions and denouncing anyone with a opinion different than your own by saying we "shouldnt reproduce". Pardon me if I don't view everyone on earth whos done bad things as "monsters". They may have done horrible things, but they are still human. Just like you, just like me. Then again maybe theres something wrong with me. Anyhoo, It could go either way for me, keep in mind I said Ozai COULD love him, as in a possibility, I also admit the possibility that Ozai might NOT love him. I never said anything definate...why? Because we simply havent seen ENOUGH of Ozai in the series. Keep in mind Azula only appeard one dimensional until The Beach, then she gained a bit of humanity. Why can't the same happen for Ozai I say... Also...its a bloody cartoon! Theres nothing wrong with analyzing a fictional characters psychology. Its fun, and it opens you up to things you might not have thought of before...at least for me. Don't get your knickers in a twist over it. First off, I wasn't trying to be condescending, I just stated what I felt, ya know MY OPINION, and I am allowed to have one, and no, no one has to agree, but I have a right to say what's on my mind. An it is in MY OPINION that people who feel that trying to kill your own child is a sign of affection, shouldn't reproduce. It's kinda scary to think that someone with that mentality would have a child, isn't it? I would fear for the saftey and well-being of that child until it could leave the home on it's own at adulthood. It is just a scary thought. And I don't believe I called anyone a monster. There is a difference between "bad" and "horrible". Murder, rape, torture, child abuse, pedophiles.....those people are horrible and depending on the severity of the crimes, maybe I would call them monsters, MAYBE. Sure they are human, but these aren't mistakes, they are crimes, mostly premeditated, and everyone has the instilled knowledge of right and wrong. I could go all religiony on this, but I won't. Azula, IMO, never gained any humanity with me, she's a demon, obsessed with power and doesn't love.........just like her dad. Being a mother has opened my eyes to alot of things I used to scoff at. Having a child puts you in protection mode from day one, ya just can't help it. And yes, her father is in the same mode as myself. I'm sure it's not the same for everyone, I'm sure that the levels vary, but I now understand all the crap that my parents used to do, say, and prohibit me from doing. So basically, my view of Ozai comes from my experience. He's tried to kill Zuko twice, without hesitation or remorse, he's rid his home of the child with no prospect of him returning, has shown no affection towards Zuko, banished his wife, had his father killed, betrayed his brother.......did I miss anything? Heck he hasn't even shown Azula any affection, just pride. Does Ozai love Zuko, IMHO, no way in hell. I don't think Ozai is capable of loving anything but himself and his power. This comes from a mom's POV, no one has to agree with me, it won't hurt my feelings, but being a mom, there's just no doubt in my mind. And BTW, I know it's a cartoon. The thread was started for a debate, that's what I am doing, debating, discussing. I wouldn't be here if I didn't want to read other's opinions on the subject. So my knickers weren't in a twist, but there are starting to get there. Thats fine and dandy Dragonfly. You have a right to your opinion. But when you bring your emotions into the fold, it ceases to be a debate. As for the monster comment...it just seems to be the general feel of this thread, what with all the ZOMG OZAI IS EBIL! type comments for the things we have seen him do. Things just aren't that simple, and I find it distastful when people divide these kinda situations into strict black and white scenario. *sigh* I just don't find anyone who has done something immoral as horrible. Like the folks who executed 9/11, I don't hate them, I'm not disgusted by them, I understand why they felt the need to do it. This doesn't mean I support it in any way shape or form, but I do not condemn them either. One man's hero is another man's terrorist. Am I right? So I apologize for jumping on you Dragonfly. It seems we had a misunderstanding. *bow* Anyhoo back to the topic at hand... We don't know much about the family life BEFORE Zuko got burned and banished. All we have really are a few flash backs, and in some of them the family actually looks rather happy. And in the flashback episode (I forget the name at the moment) Zuko didn't seem very angry, or even sad at all. Yeah sure maybe a bit intimidated at his father but that is about all I saw. The actions of the burning and both banishments could have resulted from politics or honor being threated, they are a royal family after all. And royal families DO have to uphold an image and ideal, and usually can't let their personal emotions get in the way of that. Honor is sometimes even more important than family is some parts of the world.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Jun 5, 2008 22:23:55 GMT -5
Wanted to address this point, since it tends to come up in frequent intervals. Let me put it this way, had Auzla been born a boy Zuko would have been completely ignored. Ozai has many vices, but sexism isn't one of them. He doesn't seem to care in the least that his cherished successor is a girl. Not once has he made a misogynic remark -- and I doubt he ever will, at this point. Gender really has nothing to do with it. The Fire Nation, at large, doesn't hold that view. I find it a bit odd that so many people think Ozai would potentially favor Zuko over Azula due to gender. Their belief tends to be rooted in highly contestable assumption: that, if Azula hadn't been born a prodigy, Zuko would be favored, simply for being a boy. There really is no canonical basis for this; the behaviors and cultural dictations of ancient society aren't universally realized in Avatar. Azula's eventual rise to Fire Lord proves this beyond a shadow of a doubt! Ozai favored -- favors -- Azula because she's like him, in addition to being a naturally-gifted Firebender. Had her skills been equivalent to Zuko's, I staunchly believe he would still favor her, on the basis that: they're both second-borns and have virtually the same personality. Again, gender plays no role either way, paralleling the nation's social progression. If it did, Ozai would've said something to the effect thereof.
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Post by admirality on Jun 6, 2008 14:50:57 GMT -5
^ OOO karma Firelord Azula because ur are completely right and I like the way u put ur point across so articulately (?)
Yes apart from Zuko being completely unworhty of Ozai's love, Ozai can't emphavie with him because as Firelord Azula said Zuko is a first born like Iroh, I imagine Ozai was definately jelous of Iroh when they were young so he doesn't see himself in Zuko he sees Iroh especially now after DOBS ..... Azula is in his situation the second born awesome firebender ya
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Jun 9, 2008 23:34:52 GMT -5
^I appreciate that, admirality, and thanks for the karma! You did spell "articulately" correctly, by the way. And you also bring up a good point. When Ozai looks at Zuko, he sees Iroh. He may even see Ursa, as Zuko shares many physical distinctions with her -- the soft eyes, in particular. When he looks at Azula, it's akin to looking in a mirror, right down to the smirk.
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Post by jakeman3025 on Jun 16, 2008 19:49:02 GMT -5
not now but maybe in the past
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