California Legalizes Gay Marriage

[CountessRachel]

I'd post the story, but I'm on a difficult comp and it wont let me. You can check it out on aol news.


So, what are you thoughts on California's court decisions? What is your reaction and do you think it will have any major effects? What are you thoughts in general on the subject?

[nymphadora]

I think it's great that they're legalizing gay marriage. You might not agree with it, but at least allow them the chance to get married. I'm happy for all of the couples who can finally get married after waitng so long.

[Kin~]

I think that its fantastic that gay marriage is now allowed in such a major state. My standpoint on this issue is that I do not agree with those marrying and would never do this, but for those who are gay and want to be married... well fine! Let them, its their life.
On the religious standpoint of the view I stand by the Holy Bible, which can be seen in more than one way. You may immediately think 'Then she is against it!', then you would be wrong. Though the Bible does clearly state marriage is between a man and a woman, it also clearly states so many more times that all human sin. According to this holy book, being gay and especially being married is a sin. But if we are all sinners, what does it make a difference if you are gay or not? If you truly cannot help it, let God be the ultimate judge. We should not have power over the morals of others, its a bit barbaric I think. To force someone into your religion is ridiculous.

((This is coming from a strong Christian, if you hadn't already guessed. : P Yes, I do find the church is greatly flawed and believe it should not have any power over the government.))

[Horyo]

The only problem I heard with this is that the Court ignored the people. At least, I'm not sure, can someone clarify?

[attonbitus]

Yes i believe it's going back to a state wide vote in the next few months where it could be over turned.

[CountessRachel]

In the article I read about 2 guys from my Hometown (of TN) getting married in California while on a trip...which confuses me because TN has specific legislation stating TN refuses to recognize any marriage license that is not held between a man and a woman...

I find it unconstitutional that this country as a whole refuses to let a group of people get married based primarily on religious grounds.

[xtal]

Congrats for California.

I think the government shouldn't have their big noses in people's personal relationship decisions anyway. May more states follow.

[Blind Bandit]

Jul 3, 2008 16:15:21 GMT -5 @zergneedsfood said:

Hmm...hopefully the niceness of people around here will actually not hate me for what I'm about to say.

Anyway, to say it clearly, I'm not that favorable of gay marriages. I'm fine if people want to engage in homosexual relationships and all, but I disagree with giving them the right to marry.

Now I'm not going to say it's because I'm Christian, because I'm not. I'm an Athesist. But the truth of the matter is that the gay foundations across America have actually lied a lot of things to make it seem as if homosexuality is natural. I'm not going to bash on homosexuality, because well...people I respect highly are in favor of it.

But the point is that marriage gives you certain tax reliefs and other sort of rights. When I questioned the issue of homosexuality, a highly qualified PHD biology professor told me that a lot of homosexual relationships are actually more "erotic" than what romance seems to be. Should love be more than just sex? I think so.

Of course there are MANY exceptions, but from what I've begun to reailze, is that there are A LOT of "erotic" relationships that only deal with sexual intercourse, which makes me question how honest the propanda made by the gay community has been.

And apparently my professor had friends who could explain the situation.

I'm not going to put you guys down, I'm just expressing my dislike for the overwhelming support Gay Marriage has. And don't take this the wrong way. I USED to believe in Gay Marriage. I thought that it was a just cause and that a man and a man or a woman and woman should have the same rights as a man and a woman relationship.

But apparently I just saw a lot of things differently when my professor told me to read up on these kind of things. I was pretty shocked to hear a lot of claims my professor made only to find that it's true.

So, I'm not going to say you're wrong. You're entitled to your opinion. But for me, I'm sort of against this gay marriage ordeal. So yeah....

That's my two cents.

Your expressing your opinion no one will fault you for that.

And if you have proof of this lack of naturalness please bring it forward.

I would make a case that just because some homosexual marriages wouldn't be for common reasons, doesn't mean the situation is any different for strait couples.

Strait couples often marry for similar reasons. And if you count common law marriage, then you could argue its possible more couples get married for tax break reasons ectc.

Also many people simply want to acknowledge to their peers, a possible higher power, and the government that they are bound in a committed relationship.

It should be within everyone's rights to get married for whatever reason. Such matters aren't anyone's business but the people getting married.

And generalizing homosexual relations to such a degree with out proof isn't something I would recommend. As the same augment could be used for strait marriages.

Not to mention that intimacy is important for any relationship gay or strait.

About weather its natural or not. From what I 've seen and read homosexuality is nature and nurture as are almost all human behavior. And is not a conscious choice and is not something someone can simply turn off.

Quoted from : "Homosexuality: Nature or Nurture", AllPsych Journal, by Ryan D. Johnson, April 30, 2003

allpsych.com/journal/homosexuality.html

In recent decades, many hotly debated topics have come under the scrutiny of sociobiologists, trying to determine their causation and origins. One such topic is homosexuality. Originally thought by the American Psychological Association (hereafter referred to as APA) to be a mental disorder, research into its causes, origins, and development have consequently led to its removal by the APA from its list of diagnoses and disorders [1]. Many different theories can be found regarding the root of homosexuality, as far back historically as Ancient Greece. The current debate is whether or not homosexuality is a result of nature: a person's environment and surroundings, or of his biology and genetics. The debate endures because both sides have the ability to create a scientific environment to support their cause. For example, biological theorists may argue that a monkey and human child, reared in the same setting, will develop with vastly different outcomes, while social theorists may argue that monozygotic twins, one reared normally and the other raised in seclusion for 18 years, will also develop with vastly different results, but different even more from the first scenario [4].

In debating sexual orientation, much is unknown; according to Charles Darwin, "...we do not even in the least know the final cause of sexuality. The whole subject is hidden in darkness." [2]. Although the APA currently states that sexual orientation is not a choice, rather that "...it emerges from most people in early adolescence with no prior sexual experience"[1], social theorists argue that an individual's upbringing can directly influence this [sexual orientation]. Also tied in with many of these debates is the morality of homosexuality. But the purpose of this examination is not to prove whether or not homosexuality is right or wrong, but rather to establish a thorough understanding of the biological and social theories surrounding the cause of homosexuality.

Let us first look at the biological debate. Biological theorists have found substantial instances of anatomical, genetic, and endocrine evidence to support their argument. Experiments in biological research date back as far as the late 1930's, beginning with the pioneering research of Alfred Kinsey (for the University of Indiana) on human sexuality. Kinsey had two goals for his tests: 1) to find out how many adult males engaged in homosexual behavior, and 2) to suggest theories about it came to be [9]. When asked if they had engaged in homosexual sexual relations, a large percent of the population tested answered "no", however when asked if they had engaged in same-sex sexual relations, the percentage answering "yes" nearly doubled. The experiment yielded that 30% of males had experienced at least orgasm in a homosexual act. The results of this research became the widely popularized Kinsey Scale of Sexuality. This scale rates all individuals on a spectrum of sexuality, ranging from 100% heterosexual to 100% homosexual, and everything in between [7]. While establishing that as many as 10% of adult males reported having sexual relations with a same-sex partner, this research did little more than to put the word homosexual into common language.

Karen Hooker executed the first psychological test done to test for biological determinism in 1957, on a grant from the National Institute of Mental Health [2]. The study was meant to explore the relationship between homosexuality and psychological development and illness. Hooker studied both homosexuals and heterosexuals. Both groups were matched for age, intelligence quotient (IQ) and education level, and were then subjected to three psychological tests. These three tests, the Rorschach, Thematic Apperception Test (TAT) and the Make-A-Picture-Story Test (MAPS), were then analyzed by psychologists, and the results were tabulated. The results of Hooker's experiment yielded no significant differences in answers on any of the three tests. Because both groups' answers scored very similarly, she concluded a zero correlation between social determinism of sexuality.

As a result of Hooker's finding, the APA removed homosexuality from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Psychological Disorders in 1973. In 1975 it then released a public statement that homosexuality was not a mental disorder. In 1994, two decades later, the APA finally stated, "...homosexuality is neither a mental illness nor a moral depravity. It is the way a portion of the population expresses human love and sexuality" [2].

D.F. Swaab conducted the next noteworthy experiment in 1990. This experiment became the first to document a physiological difference in the anatomical structure of a gay man's brain. Swaab found in his post-mortem examination of homosexual males' brains that a portion of the hypothalamus of the brain was structurally different than a heterosexual brain. The hypothalamus is the portion of the human brain directly related to sexual drive and function. In the homosexual brains examined, a small portion of the hypothalamus, termed the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN), was found to be twice the size of its heterosexual counterpart [2].

At the same time, another scientist, Laura S. Allen made a similar discovery in the hypothalamus as well. She found that the anterior commissure (AC) of the hypothalamus was also significantly larger in the homosexual subjects than that of the heterosexuals [2]. Both Swaab's and Allen's results became a standing ground for the biological argument on homosexuality. The very fact that the AC and the SCN are not involved in the regulation of sexual behavior makes it highly unlikely that the size differences results from differences in sexual behavior. Rather the size differences came prenatally during sexual differentiation. The size and shape of the human brain is determined biologically and is impacted minutely, if at all by behavior of any kind.

Simon LeVay conducted another experiment regarding the hypothalamus of the human brain in 1991. LeVay, like Swaab and Allen also did a post-mortem examination on human brains; however, he did his examinations on patients who had died from AIDS-related illnesses. He examined 19 declared homosexual man, with a mean age of 38.2, 16 presumed heterosexual men, with a mean age of 42.8, and 6 presumed heterosexual women, with a mean age of 41.2 [3]. LeVay discovered that within the hypothalamus, the third interstitial notch of the anterior hypothalamus (INAH3) was two to three times smaller in homosexual men then in heterosexual men. The women examined also exhibited this phenomenon. LeVay concluded the "homosexual and heterosexual men differ in the central neuronal mechanisms that control sexual behavior", and like Allen and Swaab, agreed that this difference in anatomy was no product of upbringing or environment, but rather prenatal cerebral development and structural differentiation [2].

Another line of testing done to support the biological perspective are neuroendocrine studies. The neuroendocrine viewpoint's basic hypothesis is that sexual orientation is determined by the early levels (probably prenatal) of androgen on relevant neural structures [7]. If highly exposed to these androgens, the fetus will become masculinized, or attracted to females. This research was conducted on rats at Stanford. The adult female rats that received male-typical levels of androgens sufficiently early in development exhibited male symptoms of attraction. The same was true in the reverse when applied to the male subjects. The female exposed to high levels of the hormone exhibited high levels of aggression and sexual drive toward other females, eventually trying to mount the other females in an act of reproduction. In the males, the subject who received deficient levels of androgen became submissive in matters of sexual drive and reproduction and were willing to receive the sexual act of the other male rat [7].

A popular route of experimentation in general psychology also did not elude the biological argument. Twin studies have become a highly debated area of experimentation. Ernest Kallman conducted the earliest twin study. He found a 100% concordance between monozygotic (or identical) twins (MZ), and only a 12% concordance for dizygotic (or fraternal) twins (DZ). Although discredited with methodological problems, the early experiment paved the way for a much-publicized team to conduct their twin studies.

J. Michael Bailey and Richard Pillard also studied the gayness between MZ twins, DZ twins, and non-related adopted brothers. They examined how many of the sample population examined were gay and how many were straight. They found that 52% of MZ twins were both self-identified homosexuals, 22% of DZ twins were so, and only 5% of non-related adopted brothers were so. This evidence, repeated and found to be true a second time, showed to the biological camp that the more closely genetically linked a pair is, the more likely they both are to exhibit gay or straight tendencies. Later experimenters found similar evidence in females. One such scientist is Dean Hamer. Hamer examined the possibility of homosexuality being an X-linked trait. He examined the family trees of openly gay men, and thought he saw a maternal link, leading him to investigate his theory of X-linkage. He took 40 DNA samples from homosexual men, and genetically examined them. He found that there was a 'remarkable concordance' for 5 genetic markers on section of the X-Chromosome called Xq28 [2].

Hamer hypothesized upon examining the family trees of the same men that on each subject's mother's side, there were markedly larger numbers of homosexual men, all stemming through the maternal lineages. This observation, along with his startling discovery on Xq28, led his findings to be dubbed the "gay gene study". The statistical probability of the 5 genetic markers on Xq28 to have matched randomly was calculated to be 1/100,000 [2], lending even more support to his findings.

This finding of a possible 'gay gene' prompts a look into two evolutionary concepts, and how they are affected. The Superior Heterozygote Theory states the phenotypic (actual) expression of homosexuality is the result of homozygosity for recessive (non-expressed but present) genes [11]. In simplification, if the person's genetic code is heterozygotic (one homosexual gene and one heterosexual gene), if the homosexual allele (half of the genetic code) is the allele passed on to the next generation, it will become the phenotype. Heterozygotes are only capable of being passed through to the next generation by mothers (as the Y-chromosome is incapable of heterozygosity), this again links homosexuality to X-linkage.

While all of this scientific experimentation and conclusion seems evidentiary, sociobehaviorists are not convinced. This opposing point-of-view proposes that homosexuality is the result of environmental factors, not biological ones. Most social theorists see childhood elements as the largest contributing factors to homosexuality. Often they examine childhood play patterns, early peer interactions and relations, differences in parental behavior toward male and female children, and the role of gender constancy in the household [9].

The social argument for homosexuality dates back to the ancient Greeks. Aristophanes, in his Symposium investigates homosexuality, although not termed as such, as a desire by men to share a long-term fulfillment of the soul. He believed that two souls are longing to be together, and the sexual desire alone is not strong enough to create homosexuality, but that the cultural environment allows or forbids the relationship to occur [10]. In Greece is it well known that many men engaged in same-sex relationships, however, these were not equal relationships, they were older men to young boys going through the transition to adulthood. Two instances where the culture is a causative agent of homosexual expression are in New Guinea and Crete. In some tribes in New Guinea, young boys ages 8-15 are inseminated daily by the young male warriors of the tribe. In Crete, every adolescent boy undertook a homosexual relationship as a rite of passage into manhood [10]. In these two instances, the homosexuality is accepted; however, it can be argued that it is also forced, not a natural expression.

Most psychoanalytic theories, however, stress the role of parental and family dynamics, not the society as a whole. Behaviorists believe that some sexual and gender identification differences result from roles imposed by family and friends upon children, such as the masculine and the feminine stereotypes. Problems with this are there is no evidence, social or biological, to support that homosexual children were raised differently than were the heterosexual children. Also, with reinforcement of gender identification norms, one would be led to logically deduce that all of the stereotype reinforcement would ensure a heterosexual outcome [7].

While it is agreed that an element of gender ID is based on the decision made by parents on how to raise the child, the other element is formed with the development of language skills, naming of sexual behaviors and the naming process related to these behaviors [9]. Gender ID is learned over time, and other contributions include the frequency of parental interactions, tolerance of aggression levels, and the vigor of play during childhood. In this, another theory is acknowledged, the Parental Manipulation Theory. This theory is that one or both parents are able to neuter and control offspring to promote their (the parent's) evolutionary fitness, ensuring the passage of genes into the next generation. By selecting only heterosexual practices as acceptable, the parents are attempting to promote their passage of genes [5]. However the Kin-Selection Theory contrasts this. This theory states that it doesn't matter how the genes are passed to the next generation, so long as they are passed along. For example, regardless of a homosexual outcome, the very similar genetic makeup of siblings will still allow for the passage of the family genetics along to the next generation [9].

Two predominant social theorists on homosexuality are David Halperin and Jean Foucault. Although both social theorists, both have largely contrasting ideas on the environmental contributions to the formation of an individual's homosexuality. Halperin believed in Planophysical theory. This theory believes that homosexuality is a freak of nature, an error. His theory follows in the tradition of psychological theory on this subject. Halperin was a Freudian psychologist, and places stock in Freud's idea that homosexuality is derived from a failure to resolve Oedipal issues [10]. Although Halperin has a large following from interest groups such as Christian coalitions, his theory is largely disrespected by the psychological community at large, as it provides only a result, not a cause. He fails to produce any scientific evidence. He does, however, provide examples. He postulates that a weak father and strong mother, with an unresolved Oedipus complex will lead to a weak, and then homosexual, son, because the mother has too strong of an image, compared to the weak state of the father. Psychologists argue that this same arrangement would also possibly lead to a stronger son, striving for compensation of his father's weakness.

Jean Foucault argues, "...homosexuality became because we made it so" [11]. Foucault says that the category of homosexuality itself was only created a mere one hundred years ago, after a German neologism coined some twenty years later. Foucault gives root to the social derivation of homosexuality believing that homosexuality appeared as one of the forms of sexuality, only "after it was transposed from the practice of sodomy into a kind of interior androgyny, a hermaphrodism of the soul" [10]. The theorists believe that the homosexual had been an aberration, and had then become a species, justifying itself with a new word.

Although both theorists represent the major ideas of the socioenviromental belief, there are three differences in the two theories. The first is based on the depth of desire. Foucault believed that the depth of desire is only sexual preference, that it is nothing more than superficial tastes and preferences. Halperin contrasts this with saying that homosexuality does go deeper than superficial tastes, and that homosexuality is a psychological condition, with much deeper roots than mere sexual preference. The second major difference is that Foucault did not divide people into categories. Halperin acknowledged that there are three general categories of people in respect to sexuality: heterosexual, gay men, and lesbians. Foucault groups gay men and lesbians into the all-inclusive term of homosexual. The third difference is that Halperin see homosexuality as a symmetrical and equal relationship, Foucault believes that historically, as far back as the Greeks, before the term was coined, homosexuality has always been unequal, differences in race, age, education and social status influencing the 'superficial' tastes and preferences of the men influenced.

We have examined many causes for homosexuality in the preceding pages, both biological and social. And although an interesting topic of debate, no one theory or experiment leads to a definitive answer. Some believe that the characters found on Xq28 are the Holy Grail of homosexuality research, the elusive 'gay gene'. Others may place stock in the theories of Foucault and Halperin. Perhaps Simon LeVay did reveal to us that anatomy is the key to understanding the difference in sexual orientation. Perhaps there is no one answer, that sexual orientation, whether homosexual or heterosexual; gay, straight, lesbian, or bisexual, all are a cause of a complex interaction between environmental, cognitive, and anatomical factors, shaping the individual at an early age.

[hailstorm]

-Zergsneedfood

Erotica or Romance doesn't make a relationship. Two people do. If they want to spend their time and lives together then they should get the same benefits as heterosexual people. The benefits are not about either sex or romance only; it's about the people who wish to commit to each other for whatever purposes that might entail romance and sex.

I'm curious as to the claims you bring up because it seems that only the open gay population is expressing this. I would believe that the non gay population would have just as much people into erotica than just romance.

[xtal]

Jul 3, 2008 18:07:16 GMT -5 hailstorm said:

-Zergsneedfood

Erotica or Romance doesn't make a relationship. Two people do. If they want to spend their time and lives together then they should get the same benefits as heterosexual people. The benefits are not about either sex or romance only; it's about the people who wish to commit to each other for whatever purposes that might entail romance and sex.

I'm curious as to the claims you bring up because it seems that only the open gay population is expressing this. I would believe that the non gay population would have just as much people into erotica than just romance.

Amen! I've known plenty of gay people and none of them were in relationships simply for the eroticism (it helps though, heh heh) they were together because they truly loved each other. Also, most of the gay relationship I've seen have been more bloody stable than the straight ones. O.o So I wouldn't trust what your prof. says just because he has a fancy PHD. Always question everything.

Also, as a Bisexual, if I want to marry a woman, I want the bloody right! Or at least some sort of recognition that has the same effect and benefits of a marriage.

[username]

Jul 3, 2008 16:15:21 GMT -5 @zergneedsfood said:

Hmm...hopefully the niceness of people around here will actually not hate me for what I'm about to say.

Anyway, to say it clearly, I'm not that favorable of gay marriages. I'm fine if people want to engage in homosexual relationships and all, but I disagree with giving them the right to marry.

Now I'm not going to say it's because I'm Christian, because I'm not. I'm an Athesist. But the truth of the matter is that the gay foundations across America have actually lied a lot of things to make it seem as if homosexuality is natural. I'm not going to bash on homosexuality, because well...people I respect highly are in favor of it.

But the point is that marriage gives you certain tax reliefs and other sort of rights. When I questioned the issue of homosexuality, a highly qualified PHD biology professor told me that a lot of homosexual relationships are actually more "erotic" than what romance seems to be. Should love be more than just sex? I think so.

Of course there are MANY exceptions, but from what I've begun to reailze, is that there are A LOT of "erotic" relationships that only deal with sexual intercourse, which makes me question how honest the propanda made by the gay community has been.

And apparently my professor had friends who could explain the situation.

I'm not going to put you guys down, I'm just expressing my dislike for the overwhelming support Gay Marriage has. And don't take this the wrong way. I USED to believe in Gay Marriage. I thought that it was a just cause and that a man and a man or a woman and woman should have the same rights as a man and a woman relationship.

But apparently I just saw a lot of things differently when my professor told me to read up on these kind of things. I was pretty shocked to hear a lot of claims my professor made only to find that it's true.

So, I'm not going to say you're wrong. You're entitled to your opinion. But for me, I'm sort of against this gay marriage ordeal. So yeah....

That's my two cents.

TL;DR homosexuals are sex crazed promiscuous whores who don't know the true meaning of love.

[xtal]

It means Too Long;Didn't Read... or at least that is what I have come to understood it as. You see it alot on various forums, usually its just a short version of a very long statement.

BTW Good one Kaneda, I liked that.

[Sheogorath]

I'm afraid all I can say is this: Who really cares? So long as it doesn't spell the immediate end of the human race as we know it (I'm personally betting on another thousand years of humanity, then the end of life as we know it) AND it brings no physical harm to anyone, then if two people of the same gender want to get married, then I feel that no one has the right to tell them they can't, however... I swore off men, questioning the validity of same-gender love. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I think it's possible for only two people of the opposite genders to love each other. I merely question the validity of the statement/ proclamation/ whatever that "love is love." Is that true? Do two men in a gay couple actually love each other? Or is it merely infatuation? It seems to me that more homosexual couples are based on infatuation and lust than actual love, though I myself have little in the way of proving my theory.

Unrelated and related at the same time, it seems to me that for some reason, more and more homosexual people are choosing to acknowledge their sexuality after marriage to a member of the opposite gender and bringing children into this world. I feel, and this is one of many reasons that people call me a tyrant, that if a person knows that they are homosexual and is going to admit it after marrying a member of the opposite gender, then they should by law not only come out before, but also bring at least one child into the world so as to continue the human race before ending the marriage. I'm not heartless, so it doesn't have to be through intercourse, but they should at least see to it that another generation of humans is born.

[xtal]

Jul 5, 2008 3:20:54 GMT -5 Sheogorath said:

I merely question the validity of the statement/ proclamation/ whatever that "love is love." Is that true? Do two men in a gay couple actually love each other? Or is it merely infatuation? It seems to me that more homosexual couples are based on infatuation and lust than actual love, though I myself have little in the way of proving my theory.

Lol! Of course they can love each other you silly. Keep in mind a lot of people in heterosexual couples are also motivated by lust only. It would be no different than with a homosexual couple, they can be in it for lust or actual emotional attatchment. Take it from my own personal experience, and the experiences of other gay couples I know.

And also, Don't you think there are enough people in the world as it is? Homosexuality is population control.

[Sheogorath]

Jul 5, 2008 20:52:39 GMT -5 xtal said:

Jul 5, 2008 3:20:54 GMT -5 Sheogorath said:

I merely question the validity of the statement/ proclamation/ whatever that "love is love." Is that true? Do two men in a gay couple actually love each other? Or is it merely infatuation? It seems to me that more homosexual couples are based on infatuation and lust than actual love, though I myself have little in the way of proving my theory.

And also, Don't you think there are enough people in the world as it is? Homosexuality is population control.

That's exactly why I feel homosexuals should be required to bring at least one child into the world. Homosexuality is population control in the wrong direction. If everyone in the world, homosexual and heterosexual alike, were to be reqired to bring only one child into the world, as in China, then the population wouldn't grow too quickly, but humanity wouldn't die out to quickly, either.