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Post by mahatista on Mar 5, 2008 1:46:34 GMT -5
Just popping in to paraphrase a quote from FBM that I think fits this Aang discussion.
Zuko: At least I made something happen! If it were up to you we'd still be in the courtyard.
Or something like that.
Now Zuko didn't get them in the best position, but would they have met the Sun Warriors if they hadn't gotten glued to the grate? I don't think so.
It was Zuko who made that happen and Aang who wanted to run away.
Now Aang has the good ideas -- like "I think they want us to dance with them".
But he's not pulling it all together and -- maybe it's the ridiculous breaks Nick keeps taking but -- it's taking too long for many in the audience to remain compelled by his character.
We'll see when the episodes start up again. He'll probably do something then.
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yiceman
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Post by yiceman on Mar 5, 2008 1:48:27 GMT -5
Sokka making the speech was appropriate.
Aang should have made the plan though. Or at least, he should DEFINITELY be the one to make the final plan.
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kaibasgirl
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Post by kaibasgirl on Mar 5, 2008 1:52:20 GMT -5
How was Aang supposed to make up the invasion plan when he comes from a tribe of peace loving hippies?
Seriously, if that's the case, I think Zuko should not have sided with Azula in CoD. But we all know how THAT turned out.
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Post by deana on Mar 5, 2008 2:02:27 GMT -5
I can relent on the thought of Aang saying the speech instead of Sokka, but Aang should've spoke after Sokka. I am not dicussing Zuko's faults, because honestly he gets ripped to shreds everywhere. I also have to point out, he is not the Avatar. The Avatar is the one I want to hold to a higher standard over everyone else but Aang does stuff that doesn't allow one to do that. I just cannot take the kid excuse and be content. The kid has seen stuff that many others won't see in a life time and yet he is still reluctant.
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Post by mahatista on Mar 5, 2008 2:14:52 GMT -5
Another quote from The Awakening:
Aang: I have to get my honor back!
And from WAT:
Aang: When are we ever gonna see Jeong-Jeong again? There isn't anybody to teach me. I'm gonna go fly around now! (paraphrase of words and action by mahatista)
Somehow we went from super-determined Aang to not-so-much Aang in twelve epis. But I still think it might not be so bothersome if Nick wasn't making everyone wait. The delay may be making his reticence seem worse than it is.
However, I feel like he's had a lot of those moments where he's said "I'm going to make a difference this time!" "It's time! The Avatar's back!" blah blah blah. It's starting to get a bit stale.
Which is why I think the next episode might be Aang's turning point where he loses his feet of clay and faces his task seriously. I just feel like it's got to happen very soon or it's going to be kind of ridiculous.
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kaibasgirl
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Post by kaibasgirl on Mar 5, 2008 2:34:46 GMT -5
deana, can I ask you WHY Aang should've spoken after Sokka? Not to mention the fact that Hakoda took over after his son, and what he said was perfectly fine and nothing extra was needed.
Besides, like Aang himself said, "everyone fails public speaking".
maha, those two quotes happened in two vastly different situations! You can't place them side by side and say "See? This is Aang when he's determined, this is Aang when he's slacking off."
The quote from 3.01 was BEFORE the invasion. Then they had a plan. They knew what they were doing. They were going to face the FL on DoBS, they were going to meet up with other rebel forces and defeat the FN when they were at their weakest.
So yes, he was determined, because he knew what he was doing! Usually when you have a goal in front of you, you're able to focus better and accomplish much more (why do I feel like I'm quoting pg15?)
the second comment, was AFTER the invasion. After it failed. They went to the WAT to retreat, to rest up, after they literally got served. Yes, he was running away from the same old problem, but now his point is even more valid. Who on earth is going to teach him Firebending? Especially since he's the #1 most wanted person in the world? And they were all the way out on an abandoned air temple?
Yeah, situation seems pretty hopeless.
It's funny, I get the feeling that you guys expect Aang to step into the leader's shoes without a hitch. He's STILL just a kid. Just because he's the Avatar doesn't mean he was blessed with any extraordinary talents/powers aside from the 4 elements. He's not going to pull fool-proof strategies out of thin air, when has little to no experience in war let alone planning invasions or attacks.
and you guys are also forgetting that it's not in Aang's nature or personality to be the one in charge of hurting/destroying. Hence his reluctance to learn Firebending. It pains him to hurt anyone, which is why he's so afraid of the AS.
I am not at all surprised that he didn't plan any of the attacks/invasions. It's just not who he is.
He can be a leader, and he will be a leader, and even now he's slowly starting to take control and lead, but he's more subtle in it, and he's more tactful too.
I think it's a nice, refreshing break from the stereotypical do-gooder who appears with some flashy spandex outfit and a redundant catchphrase.
The Power is YOURS.
k, night everyone.
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Post by mahatista on Mar 5, 2008 2:54:24 GMT -5
maha, those two quotes happened in two vastly different situations! You can't place them side by side and say "See? This is Aang when he's determined, this is Aang when he's slacking off." The quote from 3.01 was BEFORE the invasion. Then they had a plan. They knew what they were doing. They were going to face the FL on DoBS, they were going to meet up with other rebel forces and defeat the FN when they were at their weakest. So yes, he was determined, because he knew what he was doing! Usually when you have a goal in front of you, you're able to focus better and accomplish much more (why do I feel like I'm quoting pg15?) the second comment, was AFTER the invasion. After it failed. They went to the WAT to retreat, to rest up, after they literally got served. Yes, he was running away from the same old problem, but now his point is even more valid. Who on earth is going to teach him Firebending? Especially since he's the #1 most wanted person in the world? And they were all the way out on an abandoned air temple? Yeah, situation seems pretty hopeless. I'm pretty sure the first quote came before he ever agreed to Sokka's plan. When he was resisting going into hiding and everything else they were presenting to him. He was very determined to do it on his own. Which was what Katara was so worried about. Those quotes are companions. In The Awakening he was resisting hiding out. Sneaking around. Not letting the world know he was still alive so they could keep their hope. In WAT he didn't even want to talk about it. I think it's pretty clear that nobody has said that. It's halfway through season three. We've been with Aang through all kinds of hitches and love him all the same. Heck I love him now. Just pointing out his 'hitch' is getting annoying doesn't mean I hate him. Besides -- he completely bounced back outlook-wise by the end of The Awakening. He has been shown incredibly happy-go-lucky in season 3 -- just the same as in season 1. People keep telling me he's grown. On paper his experiences would demand growth, but I'm seeing the same kid who ran away from the Southern Air Temple. He doesn't have to step up to the total leadership role here, but he actually acted more like a leader in the previous seasons. And before you tell me it's because of the invasion going wrong I have to point out that he left behind all those men -- sure he can be depressed about it -- but seriously, they sent him away knowing they would be captured and it's his duty to make good on that. What better gift to the fair Katara than to free her father from prison? Well, I guess he's too depressed. Bummer. Yes but enough experience of life to have a love relationshipWhen he ran away from the SAT he'd been training to be the avatar. He certainly knew how to fight effectively as an airbender. I don't think we can think of him as just a green little kid when he was the youngest master ever in his element. He's pretty smart. But he won't hurt people if he knows how to control it. The only reason he's afraid of the AS is because Pathik made him think he had to give up Katara. But that doesn't seem to be true after The Avatar & the Fire Lord and Aang didn't let out a squeak on seeing Roku marry the girl of his dreams so what's the problem? There really ought to be nothing holding him back from trying to figure out the AS at this point. He's going to glow it up by accident and really hurt someone and then how's he going to feel? Season 2 Aang would have cared. He was more of a leader in the previous seasons. The way he defeated Zhao in The Deserter was brilliant. Coming up with a way to put out the Kyoshi fires was clever. He even showed his superior leadership ability in The Blue Spirit. He seems to have lost that in season 3 and it makes his character less compelling IMO. But like I said -- it may just be the long wait in between episodes. If they were coming out weekly we'd be done with them by now, but the narrative wouldn't seem so stilted. IMO.
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Post by deana on Mar 5, 2008 2:55:49 GMT -5
I wanted him to give a little inspiration to the group. He is the world's hope and hearing a word or two from him may have rallied the others more. I don't expect Aang to make battle plans and man the army tanks. Aang was using the not having the teacher thing as an excuse that he latched on to like a leech when he thought of it. They are near or in the fire nation. Finding a teacher, hard but not impossible if he was actually looking for one. Some of those kids he rallied in the "Headband" just might have been one; did he even ask? Determination will get him nothing but a death sentence if he is not a fully realized Avatar and his reluctance to become that is what displeases me. He went to battle at half strength against the princess of the Fire Nation and paid for it. What was going to happen when he met her father in this state? Death with no happy water to bring him back. Aang's reluctance was refreshing before COD, now it is just out of place. I am not asking for him to be a do-gooder. I want him to be a go getter. Another bad catch phrase: Believe it!
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pg15
Avatar Roku
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Post by pg15 on Mar 5, 2008 20:54:14 GMT -5
What? What? I heard my name mentioned...
Uh...good posts kaibasgirl! Yeah. ;D
Ok, on the Firebending teacher thing, I thought it was rather obvious that, before the Invasion, there was no point in learning Firebending since it'll be offline during the eclipse. Sokka even said so loud and clear in Nightmares and Daydreams. So, it's not that Aang didn't want to get a Firebending teacher; it's that they didn't think he needed one.
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yiceman
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Post by yiceman on Mar 5, 2008 22:33:21 GMT -5
^But after the invasion, when they knew he needed one, Aang kept avoiding talking about it.
Has anyone forgotten the scene in WAT where Aang is flying on his glider, and the rest of the kids are on Appa, literally YELLING at him to come back and talk about their future, and he pretends not to hear them and does flips?
This is what we're talking about here...
I understand he's a kid, I understand he's from a peaceful society. This near the end, it's irrelevant. This is a heroes journey. We've gotten to the point where the past should no longer effect the present in the characters.
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pg15
Avatar Roku
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Post by pg15 on Mar 5, 2008 23:07:07 GMT -5
I suppose Avatar has its own Hero's journey, different from the norm; whatever that norm may be.
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jillrg
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Post by jillrg on Mar 6, 2008 0:03:35 GMT -5
Campbell, who literally wrote the book on the hero's journey, stated every version is different with some phases missing, some repeated and some out of order, but that doesn't matter much when it comes to the perceived appropriateness of Aang's attitude at the start of this episode.
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kaibasgirl
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Post by kaibasgirl on Mar 9, 2008 1:20:47 GMT -5
no, those quotes are NOT companions. The first one is after he finds out that whole world thinks he's dead, and all his friends wanted to keep it that way. Well of course he was going to do it on his own, because none of them wanted to help him, and even if they did, he didn't want them to, because he didn't want them to get hurt. He nearly died in CoD, that could have been Katara in his stead, or Sokka or Toph. however, after he agreed to their plan, even then he wasn't too happy about it. He didn't like the idea of covering up his arrows and sneaking around too much, but he had to, because they couldn't mess up the plan. Besides which, the plan had changed from the original plan of mastering the four elements. This new plan didn't involve finding a firebending teacher, it involved meeting up with everyone else for the invasion, so why try and find a teacher, when none of them were even thinking about it? He's happy-go-lucky because that's his nature. Seriously, what, did you want him to turn into Zuko? He's optomistic, easily excited, easily amused, etc. that's who he is. He had his "emo" moments in the Awakening, but he's not the kind to sit and get depressed about it all the time, unlike Zuko. Personally, I think he's more a leader this season then the other two. The fact that he owned up and was ready to face Ozai, and was actually angry that he missed this chance, proves that. Also his speech at the end of DoBS, that's the kind of speech a leader gives, not a kid. At this point, in the WAT, they're at a deadlock. The invasion failed, they're tired, hungry, weary, and have no one to turn to at this point except themselves. WHO were they going to find, out in the middle of nowhere? ROFL! and here is why I love debating with you so much please don't insult me, maha, I think I've stated quite clearly what my opinion of the Aang/Katara relationship is. I don't think I need to repeat myself. And besides, this topic is about Aang saving the world, let's not drag in the minute details like love into this When he ran away from the SAT, he just left a letter, than went on Appa and left. He didn't have to fight anyone. Besides which, he was only being trained in Airbending, and I doubt they were teaching him military strategies. but the problem is that the AS is LOCKED. It won't reopen, so he can't 'accidentally' go into it, because he can't use it at all. At this point they have so many things to worry about, the AS it the least of them, because they anyways don't know how to unlock it. He needs Guru Pathik to figure it out, and he has no idea where that guy is. I think it's more that there isn't really anything/anyone to lead at this point. He has to try and hide his identity as best as possible, and also, there aren't any 'direct' enemies to deal with. There's no one they have to fight one on one until DoBS. But I don't think he's lost it. Organizing a secret dance party right under the headmasters nose for all the students in his class proves that
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Post by mahatista on Mar 9, 2008 17:47:03 GMT -5
Kai I never meant to insult. Only to bait. But I will say this -- Aang's 'love' has mattered in all his decisions quite a bit so far. I think they've made it important enough in the story that it should matter in any discussion of his intentions/behaviors. But they also made the avatar state important in Season 3 and it's 'locked' (somehow he knows that and hasn't done a darn thing to try to unlock it) and so we are just to forget it -- the inconvenient old plot device that it is. In any case, I can barely remember writing any of those things and I just can't get the energy up to go through them with a fine-toothed comb so I can't comment much on that. But I think the main problem with this whole debate (as with many I've had) is that we're actually talking past each other. I (and I think also Yice although I hesitate to speak for him) am complaining about the structure of the story. The nuts and bolts. I think the way they've structured it has made Aang somewhat tedious at times. While I understand the reality of the situation for Aang it's getting stale within the context of the story IMO. In other words -- I'm not talking about the characters as if they're anything but storytelling devices in this particular discussion. But as I've said so many times I should probably sig it, I might not notice this problem so much (or maybe not at all) if Nick was airing the episodes within a reasonable timeframe. Serialized shows don't work the way Spongebob does, but they really don't seem to understand that. And the long breaks in between episodes highlight problems (or perceived problems) in the storyline.
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yiceman
Bosco
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Post by yiceman on Mar 9, 2008 21:51:05 GMT -5
Yeah, that is where I'm coming from...story structure and role, not Aang as a person.
Aang as a person does not exist. Aang the character has a problem dealing with difficult situations and it seems to damage his role as the hero.
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