yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Sept 12, 2007 1:28:51 GMT -5
I figured I'd start this and see what folks think.
I have my own opinion, but would like to see some others first...
The question is, did Jet truly redeem himself by his actions before his death?
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Post by firenationstooge on Sept 12, 2007 1:37:42 GMT -5
Here's one of those "deathbed redemption" scenes where people are split on whether a person truly redeemed himself/herself or not, since the scene itself is often so brief.
Personally, I think that Jet did in a way redeem himself. I remember one of your arguments against it yiceman. That he was merely struck down while trying to strike back at Long Feng.
But see it from a different perspective. See, Jet's the character who has lived his whole life thinking that the Fire Nation was the one evil in the world, and he was set against them. Willing to do whatever it took to drive them back.
Later however, one could say that he saw a new evil that he wasn't aware of. Even the capital of his home country, Ba Sing Se, was under the unjust grip of its secret police. Jet was a victim of this "unexpected" evil. He helped the gAang combat this force, by locating their hideout, and in his last moments, lashing out against the man who in essence perverted his faith in the Earth Kingdom.
I suppose one could argue for or against Jet's "redemption" because it really didn't last long enough. But personally, I believe it qualifies.
...forgiveness if I wasn't too terribly coherent. I suspect I need sleep. *wanders off*
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Sept 12, 2007 2:04:00 GMT -5
Yet did he overcome his deeply seeded racism?
I give Jet some credit because he showed remorse for his acts of terrorism...but he was still a racist.
The reason I think Jet had to die is because they COULDN'T properly redeem him...the guy attempted to commit mass murder when we first saw him.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
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Post by kaibasgirl on Sept 12, 2007 2:08:20 GMT -5
I remember reading in an interview somewhere that Jet was supposed to be a one-time only character. I forgot what the reason was that they brought him back, but anyway.
Before I give my opinion on this matter, can I ask what your idea of redemption is, yiceman, I'd really like to know.
~Téa
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
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Post by nandireya on Sept 12, 2007 2:41:27 GMT -5
But did he find peace? He didn't avenge his parents...he never got to see the other side of the Fire Nation so died despising all of them...
I really found his death rather hollow...
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Sept 12, 2007 2:45:25 GMT -5
My idea of redemption, IN A NARRATIVE, (because in real life is a very different story), is a character who has good qualities that become evident some time before their redemption. A hint or two early on after their introduction. A character who is doing bad things out of circumstance, situation, or ignorance. I'll give you an example or two...there's a show I like called "Prison Break." The just of the plot is a guy is framed for a murder he didn't commit and sent to prison. His brother gets himself arrested and breaks them and a couple other prisoners out. Then they're on the run. In this is an FBI agent named Mahone. It's his job to track them down. But there's bigger things going on...every one of the prisoners he catches, he's killed. It's revealed later that he's being blackmailed. He's not the nicest guy...drug addict, fully willing to commit murder. Heck, here's a quote from his wikipedia page: His willingness to commit murder in order to preserve his life and the life of his family is shown when Michael asks if he would kill two innocent men to "get his life back", and he replies, "Absolutely." He's been clearly stated to be the hero's "nemesis," if you will. But, compared to the villains on the show, you can see the difference. The guy just wants his life back. He doesn't WANT to do this. He DOES it, but he doesn't like it. I think he might be redeemed. You can read up on him here... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_MahoneAnother would be from one of my favorite books, "Faith of the Fallen." In this sixth instalment of the series, a character named Nicci, who hadn't seen much screentime beforehand, becomes very prominent. She's revealed to be utterly devoid of feeling. She inflicts pain and suffering on others without batting an eyelash. Later, we find out that is because of the way she was raised...by priests. Not only did they abuse her, they discouraged her individuality. They claimed that this life didn't matter...only the afterlife. Humanity is vile...the Creator is all. The only purpose of mankind is to serve the community, not the individual. Naturally, the hero, Richard, opposes these beliefs. So Nicci pretty much kidnaps him and forces him to accompany her to her homeland...see "see how much better it is there." She takes him to a place where everyone serves the community, the church rules, and art, expression and individuality are illegal. She wants him to see how it is to live there. And what does ol' Richy-boy do? He gets a job, works his butt off, buys them a house, befriends his neighbors, gets them to help him fix up his house, makes business connections, sets up a delivery service, and makes a crapload of money...all on his own. Naturally, this is frowned upon once the church hears of it...they order Richard, a skilled sculpter, to make them a statue depicting the greatness of the Creator over the vileness of mankind. What does Richard do? He carves this: A statue depicting mankind as a strong, confident, and beautiful thing. When it's revealed, the people, who have never seen such beauty, are awestruck. The Priests are furious. They command Richard to smash it. And he does. The people are outraged. A riot breaks out. They take down the priests and gain control of the city. And in all of this, Nicci, who had been convinced of the worthlessness of the individual man, has been growing increasingly confused by Richard's compassion, empathy, and ability to rise up all on his own. His statue, his own personal character, turns her. In later books, she's one of his biggest allies. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicci_%28Sword_of_Truth%29
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Post by Medea on Sept 12, 2007 4:43:50 GMT -5
Yes Jet did redeem himself in a way but I still believe deep down he was still a very bitter young man
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
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Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
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Post by kaibasgirl on Sept 12, 2007 14:12:52 GMT -5
Prison Break?! Omg, my brother is obsessed with that show!
In that case, then how do you see Jet as not redeemed?
He saw his whole village destroyed at the age of eight. He was emotionally scarred for the rest of his life, and if you look at the flashbacks of his memories as a child, he saw the man who did it, that Fire Nation general, smiling! The guy was happy that he murdered his family!
He grew up a racist because of that. He hates the Fire Nation with all his heart and soul, because they took away everything he holds dear, and they enjoyed it.
But that doesn't mean he has no compassion. He was gentle to Katara, and a devoted leader to his friends. His views were twisted, yes, but he expressed remorse for his actions and a desire to change in that conversation with Iroh. He said, "There are things I've done that I'm not proud of..."
It sounded to me like he had taken Katara's words to heart, and realized what he was doing (or the way he was going about it) was wrong.
That's why they came to Ba Sing Se, to start over, get a second chance.
But he couldn't let go of his biasness, because he wasn't able to accept the Fire Nation as anything but pure evil after what they did to him. That's why he turned against Zuko "Lee" and Iroh "Mushi", even though he expressed a desire to befriend them earlier on. Anything to do with the Fire Nation just set him off, he hadn't been able to come to terms yet with what happened to him, wasn't able to forgive and never forget. He slipped back into his old ways because finding out that someone he liked, and even wanted to make one of his Freedom Fighters, was actually Fire Nation, was tantamount to getting stabbed in the back by said friend.
But when Long Feng brainwashed him, made him forget about the war and all that's happened to him, we see that he was a normal boy. Completely normal. If he hadn't gotten traumatized like he did, we see he would have turned out a regular teen, just like Sokka.
It's because he grew up, believing the Fire Nation to be the all-encompassing evil in the world, that he did what he did. And, you can hardly blame him; eight is such a tender age to behold such tradgedies.
But he tried to change, and that's why I think he was redeemed. He tried to let go of his past, but he wasn't strong enough to.
~Téa
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Post by conspiracytheorist on Sept 12, 2007 15:52:19 GMT -5
The question is, did Jet truly redeem himself by his actions before his death? Redeem himself in whose eyes? I think - no, I know - that Jet was sincerely attempting to make up for the bad he had done in the past by helping Aang & Co. locate the Dai Li's underground base. In Episode 2x17, Lake Laogai, Toph confirms this statement through earthbending: "I swear, I've changed. I was a troubled person, and I let my anger get out of control. But I don't even have the gang now. I've put all that behind me." I don't believe that Jet died having accomplished everything that he personally thought was necessary to redeem himself, but I do know that he was trying. I think that Aang believed that Jet had made a complete turnaround. Despite Katara choosing to believe Jet over Aang back in Book One, Aang was willing to listen to Jet when they stumbled into him again months later. Aang, who fought with Jet in the secret underground of Ba sing Se, did not resort to violence when Jet turned on him through Long Feng's brainwashing, but told him to "look into his heart." Offering second and third chances like this isn't something that a doubter does. Katara's case is much more difficult. She was (presumably) interested in Jet romantically during the first season, and although grudgingly, perhaps, the second as well (Toph's "I can tell you're lying" isn't completely insignificant there). I'd bet that she was halfway to crediting him with repentance, pushed forward by some bit of affection, and pulled back by indignance at his lies at deception in the first season. I don't think she was all the way there, though. As for me, I can't give an unshakeable answer. I think any given person's answer to this question will boil down to their agreement or disagreement with the old saying, "It's the thought that counts." What we know for certain is that Jet was trying to help. But did he do enough? He tried to murder countless people for his own selfish reasons (yes, revenge is an utterly selfish endeavor). It's my personal belief that those who plot and plan for revenge are never completely pure-hearted in their actions; in fact, I'd say that a majority of the time it's the other extreme. My "final answer" would be no. I don't think there is anything that Jet could have done to make up for attempted mass murder. But anyone who believes that what matters most is the effort that you put into something, rather than the end result, would give the other answer. Nice thread; it's a thought-provoking question, although I'd agree with firenationstooge that "one could argue for or against Jet's "redemption" because it really didn't last long enough."
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Post by Grimmjow of the Funk on Sept 12, 2007 16:21:37 GMT -5
i don't think he needed to redeem himself in the first place. but yeah he did, and i only wish the thug was still alive and able to help the gaang now.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Sept 12, 2007 21:05:23 GMT -5
Interesting thing about him helping the gAang though is that he was ORDERED to do it by Long Feng.
Now, I think he would have done so willingly, but it's hard to take him to truth at the time because he was brainwashed, yeah? He THOUGHT he was telling the truth.
Now, since Jet was never really a villain, and it's true he did feel regret his extreme actions, I give him some credit.
The problem was he hadn't solved anything. His racism led him to stalk someone, and the openly attack them...he was starting all over again! Give him another few weeks and he'd be hounding people up and down the streets of Ba Sing Se, taking justice into his own hands with the blade of a knife on people who could be from the Fire Nation.
That's why I think he hadn't really changed. He was trying, that's true conspiracytheorist, but he never got over his obsessive bigotry, which led him to rash actions of violence.
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Post by Grimmjow of the Funk on Sept 12, 2007 21:35:53 GMT -5
y'all must be crazy. he was racist RACIST!!! the kid's parents was killed. they are in a war. of course he is gonna hate the fire nation.
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Maylene
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Post by Maylene on Sept 12, 2007 21:43:31 GMT -5
Can one really be called a racist if they're against your nationality instead of race?
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Post by grandmaster192 on Sept 12, 2007 22:32:59 GMT -5
If we go by what you call redemption, Yiceman, I don't think he was. It seemed like he got to the stage right before redemption, and was killed before he really got to fully redeem himself. Now, I do think he redeemed himself for things like terrorism, which was his main problem. He went from a person who wanted to destroy the Fire Nation to a person that wanted to protect people (i.e his fight against Long Feng). I think he was redeemed.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Sept 13, 2007 1:10:50 GMT -5
@kraziebone--So what? I can understand holding some contempt towards a war and the enemy soldiers if they killed your family, but I don't see how his attempt to murder a village of innocents just because there was a few soldiers in there is justified. He was racist...he LIKED Zuko, and yet the instant he found out where Zuko was from, he stalked and assaulted him. Maylene--Same thing, isn't it? "Those guys are Fire Nation." Jet said, to justify his actions to himself. @grandmaster--I think that's because they didn't really have a proper way to forgive him for his acts of terrorism. They had to kill him because they couldn't really redeem him. He changed his ways to some extent, yet was already showing signs of a relapse when he got arrested. Now I have to disagree with you about his attack on Long Feng. He did that to escape the mind control...not to help anyone.
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