|
Post by CountessRachel on Mar 22, 2008 17:32:12 GMT -5
news.aol.com/story/_a/speak-english-signs-ok-at-philly-shop/20080320083809990001?ncid=NWS00010000000001So a shop owner in Philadelphia Philly Cheese Shop is under scrutiny for posting a sign in his restaurant requiring customers to speak English when ordering. Was he right or wrong for this? Have any of you ever worked in a place where you've had this kind of issue? How should we approach the language issues in this country? Do you think this sign discriminates or discourages people of certain backgrounds not to eat there? What are you thoughts in general? Discuss.
|
|
|
Post by Paraiba Ocean on Mar 22, 2008 17:39:16 GMT -5
Well, I don't really see the point of the sign. It's his right to put that sign in there.
But I mean, if I go to Wendy's and order a hamburger, fries and soda in say...French, what are the odds of anyone understanding me? Not very high.
IMO, he's posting a sign that states something that's basically common sense.
I personally think that Spanish should be a required language for people in America to learn, just as English is in Norway and other countries in Europe.
That doesn't mean people coming here shouldn't learn English, but if I move to say...Seoul, it'd assumed I would need to learn Korean. >.>
|
|
|
Post by harmonyhorsegrl on Mar 22, 2008 17:42:43 GMT -5
Ugh...thats a toughie. We all have the right to speak our own languages, but, Pariba's right. It's pretty pointless to go to a Taco Bell and order something in Korean. They should learn English. At least enough to get them by. i think the primary langage of a country's people should be learned at least enough for them to be able to communicate.
|
|
|
Post by kolibri [thread killer] on Mar 23, 2008 15:01:04 GMT -5
I see where he's coming from, it would be frustrating if you did not have any staff members fluent in other languages. But, on the other hand, it's Philly. You have the world inside of the city practically! Plus it's Geno's! The article is right, his restraunt and Pat's across the street are the two most famous places in Philadelphia for their steaks, so naturally they're going to have tourists there who don't speak english. It would be a wise move on his end to hire bilingual staff members to work the counter.
|
|
Atmos
Casual Zuko
Tame the Flame
Posts: 946
|
Post by Atmos on Mar 23, 2008 16:43:43 GMT -5
This intrigues me, because I had just flew back from states for my spring break from the JFK in New York to Puerto Rico.
Now if anyone doesn't know, Puerto Rico is a commonwealth of the US where Spanish is the dominant conversational language but have both Spanish and English as its official language. Also Puerto Ricans generally the largest Hispanic group specifically in the Northeast (particularly the New York-New Jersey metropolitan)
Back to the subject - So I was boarding a plane heading to Puerto Rico and we were about to lift off. But just before we take off, the flight attendants make an announcement that the individuals sitting in the aisles of the center emergency exit only knew Spanish and requested for any volunteers that knew English if they wouldn't mind sitting switching their seats to the emergency aisles. (Being on a red eye in a cramped plane, I didn't want anymore stalling so I was quick to raise my hand and get this over with)
And so we painlessly had the seating arrangement and were on our way.
Now with this situation was there any ethical disturbance or discrimination. I don’t think so. Why: Safety is always a top priority.
Under the circumstances, only one or two of the flight attendants were fluent in Spanish. The pilots didn’t know well enough Spanish and neither did the rest of the staff.
If any emergency situation was to ever occur (serious enough to open all emergency exits) you need maximum coordination of plane’s entire staff. They would be to act and instruct quickly. In case, if there was an emergency they would have to be quick to instruct, properly communicate with, the passengers in the emergency exit aisles. So any form of language barrier would not help a situation where every second counts.
Now with the case of this shop owner, I sort of agree, but mostly disagree; I could agree with what he is doing but I completely disagree with how he’s doing it and his reasons.
My first thought of him is that he probably has the worst business sense. That’s stupid. You have business and want to “make a business” you don’t deter possible customers just because of language. Hell there always that one foreigner that falls in love with the local food and will spend crazy for it, lol.
But seriously I would not have a problem with a sign politely stating a notice that the staff and owner of the shop there being possible language barriers. I think it is very beneficial to acknowledge the known languages for “safety reasons.”
In the case of shops and restaurants, the biggest health concern would be food allergens. Failing to properly communicate upon the exchange of food puts a big risk for the consumer if he or she has a food allergen.
But to put up a sign saying, “When ordering, SPEAK ENGLISH” is discriminating. And the whole reasoning of “Speak English because this is America” is terrible. You might as well say, “I will discriminate you if don’t know English.”
And this isn’t even about shifting languages in school systems or making new languages official for the entire country. This is about a potentially hungry customer (and potential $$$) only asking for the simple hospitality of quick food service.
Ridiculous.
And as kolibri mentioned, if this shop is really located in moderately touristy area, it just makes me wonder more how much potential business this guy’s missing out on. If was ever out to open up a cheese steak small business. I’ll know where to go. Doesn’t really take much to take a menu and copy/paste it onto an internet translator for an extra copy.
But I just love the irony about signs that say “Speak English” and are supposed to be address to non-English speakers. What’s the point of the sign if the intended party can’t read it?
|
|
|
Post by Paraiba Ocean on Mar 23, 2008 17:02:17 GMT -5
Atmos: I agree with what you were saying. I want to clarify my original post, though it didn't seem you were pointing fingers at mine or anything. Even though I said it was his right to put it there, I do not agree with what it said--mostly because it has a snarky attitude to it. And yes, since it is in a tourist area, he's going to risk losing customers over that. I figure it can be quite similar to someone in Cancun putting up a sign that says "Order in Spanish, because this is Mexico." >.> And I don't think they're going to be reckless enough to do that to put up that sign. So his idea is good, but his execution is poorly constructed. And frankly, I don't even see the point of the sign, which is why I kinda said it was common sense. xD If he has such a problem with this, perhaps consider hiring bilingual people, like Atmos and kolibri said. He rubs me off as the kind of guy who's never tried learning a new language, especially when you're visiting a country with people who predominantly don't speak much of your native language, or if you move to said new country and don't know it that well at all.
|
|
|
Post by Chibi Chan-o on Mar 23, 2008 21:10:47 GMT -5
I think he's right in doing that. It used to be that immigrants had to learn to speak English before even qualifying to be citizens. But now, it's the other way around. People who already live here and have learned English, the language that is spoken the most in America and was the language of our founding fathers (blah blah blah), are now being forced to have to learn Spanish or some second language. The immigrants and general foreign population can just get away without learning language because signs are put out in their language in public or there are translators at restaurants.
That's not how it's supposed to be. If you want to live in America, speak our freaking language!!
I went to a restaurant with my family one time and our waitress could not speak English at all. My grandpa had to translate the Spanish, and because English and Spanish do not translate the same way, with the same words, she ended up getting our order wrong. The manager did not do anything at all. Why didn't he take our order? He was bilingual and he was standing around the whole time while we ordered our food. The lack of English complicated a simple family outing.
|
|
|
Post by Paraiba Ocean on Mar 23, 2008 21:21:35 GMT -5
Well, frankly, if she didn't speak any English, the girl shouldn't have even been offered that particular job. But it's harder than it sounds to learn English, Chibi Chan. I know a girl who's living here with her grandmother and father and she's from Colombia. She barely speaks any English, but understands it fairly well. No offense, but this sentence screams ignorance. I don't think people should be required to learn Spanish just because of the immigrants. I think people should be required because it's economically smart. There are 20 Spanish speaking countries around the world, and if you look at who's on top in the business world, it's the people who speak more than their country's official/de facto language. Here are the facts: I know a girl who works at a YMCA. She gets paid $9 an hour because she's bilingual. Her co-workers get about $7.50-$8 an hour. She's 16. If she goes on to learn, say, Italian or Portuguese or French, which are all very similar to Spanish, imagine her pay once she graduates college and gets a real job. That's a little dramatic. Or maybe that's just how it is for where you live. We may have signs that are more so pictures, and instruction manuals that come in more languages than English, but I haven't ever heard of translators in restaurants. And seriously, to go back to my prior statement, that could be said for people traveling to say, Mexico or the Dominican Republic for vacation. I don't hear the Dominicans in Santo Domingo or the Mexicans in Cancun going, "If those blasted Americans/Europeans want to come visit us, they need to learn Spanish, dangit!"
|
|
|
Post by Chibi Chan-o on Mar 23, 2008 21:52:54 GMT -5
Yes, but the restaurant was in Texas, the capital of illegal and legal Mexican immigrants. Down in Texas, you normally can't get a job unless you're bilingual. And I'm not saying English isn't an easy language. English borrows words from every language in the world. But you can learn it. It's not impossible. People learn it everyday, as a second language.
Nobody's doing anything to make it so immigrants have to learn English. So the second language learning comes from the natural citizens. Some of us realize that if we don't learn the other's language, then there will be no communication. It's either they learn English or we learn their language.
As for business, English is the language of business, mind you. While English speaking countries do not out number the Spanish speakers or Chinese speakers, etc., it is still the language of business. Why? America is one of the top trading partners of the world.
As for getting paid more for being bilingual, it shouldn't be that way. And it usually isn't that way. While being bilingual makes you look better, it shouldn't be required, unless English is not your first language.
I live in a more Southern state, and I see Spanish signs all the time, all over the city. Even the Native American Indians, who are by far a minority, have a few towns where the street signs are written in English and their Indian language.
And by translators, I mean someone who works there that is bilingual and could easily serve someone who doesn't speak English. That inconveniences the workers, as well as the families being served, since they need a bilingual waiter/waitress if they want food.
And travelling and living in the area are completely different. It is in the best interests of the traveller to know the language of their destination but even if they did, they would eventually leave the place and go home. It would be different if, say, an American was planning on living in Mexico or another Spanish-speaking country, in which case they should learn Spanish. But the point is, there are many coming to America who aren't even taking the time or effort to learn English.
|
|
|
Post by kolibri [thread killer] on Mar 23, 2008 21:54:48 GMT -5
And seriously, to go back to my prior statement, that could be said for people traveling to say, Mexico or the Dominican Republic for vacation. I don't hear the Dominicans in Santo Domingo or the Mexicans in Cancun going, "If those blasted Americans/Europeans want to come visit us, they need to learn Spanish, dangit!" Honestly, I think just about everyone over the globe thinks that every once in awhile about tourists in general, from Japan to Africa. It would be ideal if you are visiting a country, to at least know some basic phrases. Even if it is just "Where's the bathroom?" it can be useful. You don't need to be fluent, just enough to cover the basic questions and answers.
|
|
|
Post by Paraiba Ocean on Mar 23, 2008 22:09:14 GMT -5
@chibi: I live in the south. I know illegal immigrants. To you, it may not seem like it should people should get more, but they do. That's life. It's unfair, but true. It doesn't really matter if it's the language of business, but for some people, they get sent to other places around the world. If I get employed for a company that sends me to Beijing, they're going to want to know that I speak Mandarin because they're going to want to know that I'm going to get around. You live in Texas, so things are different than they are here. But there is still a significant amount of immigrants. If the people you are referring to aren't trying to learn English, then they're not going to get far. >.> kolibri [thread killer]: Hey, I'm all for people learning a few phrases in other languages. If I went to Germany, I'd want to know a bit of German. If I go to Korea, I'd want to learn a bit of Korean.
|
|
Atmos
Casual Zuko
Tame the Flame
Posts: 946
|
Post by Atmos on Mar 23, 2008 23:03:07 GMT -5
There - couldn't have said it any better.
---
He has the right to inform the public of the language that is utilized in his shop.
But the phrase "When ordering: Speak English" ...What really got me was just his efforts in a business perspective. And in general, I just have a problem with promoting monoligualism as "patriotic propaganda."
I mean, should Americans be "proud" of being monoligual? Are there benefits of being monoligual over being multiligual? Are there things in American history that couldn't have happened (leading to the prospering democracy) if we weren't monoligualistic?
My question to this is are you considering the "legal" immigrants or the illegal?
I would agree it's best for any legal immigrant of any country to attempt to learn the native language.
But when it comes to illegal immigrants, where and how can an illegal immigrant take the time to learn English?
Don't get me wrong, I don't support the federal/state welcoming illegal immigrants anything. But when it comes to a desperate illegal immigrant, I highly doubt they have time (let alone access) to learn English before fleeing into America?
And when an illegal immigrant (who doesn't know english) is in America and happens to obtain a job, for an easy example, as a waitress is the complications of a language barrier between employee and customer the immigrants fault...or the employer for hiring an "illegal" immigrant in the first place?
Heck if even a "legal" immigrant (who doesn't know the native language)obtains the job is it the immigrant's fault...or the employer for hiring him/her in the first place?
As I already mentioned, when it comes to businesses like a resturant, a language barrier can be dangerous if you consider the risk of food allergens.
|
|
|
Post by Gran Gran on Mar 24, 2008 10:11:39 GMT -5
Well comparing Cancun with Philadelphia is a bit lame as the latter is not primarily a tourist attraction.
It would not kill the Americans to actually add a second language to their curriculum, and not just a semester or 2, I had 9 years of English in school....barely made me fluent....2 semesters isn't gonna do squat.
So, even if Lowe's has started to put bilingual signs up....if I don't speak Spanish (which I don't) you better order in English or you are up the creek....so maybe a sign 'No habla Espaniol' would have been more neutral...and still could have been misconstrued...
|
|
|
Post by Paraiba Ocean on Mar 24, 2008 10:18:45 GMT -5
A lot of people who immigrate to America only know high school English, and if they have small children, their knowledge is a bare minimum--if any. My mother's family immigrated to America, and my grandfather told me his knowledge of English was lacking. He thought he knew enough, he arrived in America, and found out he knew absolutely nothing. My mother knew no English. She didn't even understand it. Imagine being 9 years old and moving to a country where no one is interested in learning your language, and no one in your family speaks the language of the country. And all you have is your parents, grandfather and sibling(s). Picture you and your family moving to Thailand. It's a little scary, actually. But the fact is, we're always going to have immigrants in America, legal and illegal. Now, I know some Costa Ricans. They speak fantastic English. They're even learning Southern slang. But they're illegal residents. So just because someone is illegal doesn't mean they're not trying to have a better life, or speak our language. Gran Gran: Well, yeah. It's different. But I was just trying to make a point. And I agree. A sign simply stating in whatever languages he had frequent customers ordering stating "We don't speak *language*" would have been clear and to the point, without having a bad and snarky attitude about it. You can even go to freetranslation.com or Google it and not have to pay for a translator or anything like that.
|
|
|
Post by Gran Gran on Mar 24, 2008 21:13:42 GMT -5
Fortunately the young ones pick up the new language - if permitted like they breath the new air...
|
|