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Post by Consonant*** on Dec 30, 2006 21:38:33 GMT -5
Who's coming with us? The terrorists? The terrorists were around long before we ever invaded Iraq. In fact, the terrorists that bombed us had nothing to do with Iraq. And btw, the majority of Iraqis want us out of the country. So if we threaten them by saying, "Hey, step up, or we're leaving," exactly how are we going to make them want us to stay? Wow. You disregarded practically everything I said. EVERYTHING has changed. They weren't in Iraq then, NOW they are. It doesn't matter want us out of the country. If we leave, they die. The terrorists will kill them for voting. they will kill them for cheering Saddam's death. There has to be an effective infrastructure in Iraq before we leave. There isn't one. They don't want us to leave, btw. They are UNHAPPY, certainly, but they know that we are the only things between them and a body full of rounds. I will. I'll tell them that they need to step up, that they aren't doing enough. and they aren't. We have done EVERYTHING for them. What has the Iraqi government done? Nothing. If they don't do something, then you people will make us leave, and then we'll doom an entire region to death.
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Post by demonofthewest on Dec 31, 2006 1:40:22 GMT -5
Then don't blame them for shooting you. And I didn't disregard anything. I know that there are terrorists in Iraq. But staying there doesn't do anything to stop them. It didn't stop them from bombing Spain, and it didn't stop them from bombing Britain. Clearly, the troops presence doesn't make as big an effect as you think.
Yes they do. Polls have shown the majority of Iraqis want us to get the hell out. You can pretend that the poll is a big lie from the liberal media if you want. I can't force you to live in reality. Oh, and one other thing I loved.
If, by everything, you meant destroying billions of dollars of infrastructure, killing civilians, starting a civil war, and turning the country into an even bigger mess than it was, then yes, Captain Klepto, we have done everything for them. Ungrateful little runts, they are.
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Post by Consonant*** on Dec 31, 2006 1:47:25 GMT -5
Then don't blame them for shooting you. And I didn't disregard anything. I know that there are terrorists in Iraq. But staying there doesn't do anything to stop them. It didn't stop them from bombing Spain, and it didn't stop them from bombing Britain. Clearly, the troops presence doesn't make as big an effect as you think. Yes they do. Polls have shown the majority of Iraqis want us to get the hell out. You can pretend that the poll is a big lie from the liberal media if you want. I can't force you to live in reality. Oh, and one other thing I loved. If, by everything, you meant destroying billions of dollars of infrastructure, killing civilians, starting a civil war, and turning the country into an even bigger mess than it was, then yes, Captain Klepto, we have done everything for them. Ungrateful little runts, they are. They don't like us there, certainly, but if they honestly want us to leave, they're even dumber than I thought.
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Post by demonofthewest on Dec 31, 2006 19:59:43 GMT -5
If that's how you feel, then let them rot in their own stupidity.
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Atmos
Casual Zuko
Tame the Flame
Posts: 946
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Post by Atmos on Dec 31, 2006 21:23:00 GMT -5
We can't generalize the views of Iraq accurately just as much as the US can't generalize its views accurately. In Iraq there are just as many people that want the US here, just as many people that thank America and Bush (the younger urban generations love and express American lifestyle) just as there are as many that dispise America and/or want the US to leave. AND THEN...there's the rural majority that really don't even give a crap or don't know what the hell's going on, mostly because many are illiterate and/or don't even keep in touch with the city populations (let alone the outside world).
There was a special on National Geographic (or was it discovery) of a 2 hour special of a journalist travelling all throughout the country and interviewing different people of different occupations in different areas.
One rural family out in the but-f***s of Iraq was interviewed and stated that throughout his whole life [before Saddam's rule, during Saddam's rule, and after] his family has never received any sort of government/financial benefits and isn't expecting anything to change any time soon.
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Post by demonofthewest on Jan 1, 2007 22:14:27 GMT -5
We can still have accurate polls that reflect a majority of the population. Otherwise, there's no point in counting any polls ever done, ever.
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Jan 2, 2007 18:29:16 GMT -5
If, by everything, you meant destroying billions of dollars of infrastructure, killing civilians, starting a civil war, and turning the country into an even bigger mess than it was, then yes, Captain Klepto, we have done everything for them. Ungrateful little runts, they are. By everything the guy frigging means: We deposed a cruel despot, set up a democracy, and are a stabilizing force. And you can pretend any positive sign is Bush propaganda! You want to know what will happen if we run away and cry like you guys say? The terrorists will realize we haven't a backbone, and go, "come on guys, let's invade the infidels homeland! WOOHOO!" And something else, if we run out crying and then tryand stop Iran they'll be like: Pfft. YOU guys, what'll ya do? Retreat? And guys, we didnt win WWII by being so F***** up by a few civilian deaths. We bombed the s*** out of them for the attacks, wetook casualties with am ore hard stomach. Could you imagine if George S. Patton jr. had said "We're not just gonna kill 'em. We will use their guts to grease our tank treads." The media would call him a horrible inhumane man. We win wars with a 'stiff upper lip' not wobbly knees. Show RESOLVE we cant let the place fall to pieces now. If we run away wait for 9/11 part 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and the invasion of the U.S.
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Post by Consonant*** on Jan 4, 2007 17:33:56 GMT -5
If, by everything, you meant destroying billions of dollars of infrastructure, killing civilians, starting a civil war, and turning the country into an even bigger mess than it was, then yes, Captain Klepto, we have done everything for them. Ungrateful little runts, they are. By everything the guy frigging means: We deposed a cruel despot, set up a democracy, and are a stabilizing force. And you can pretend any positive sign is Bush propaganda! You want to know what will happen if we run away and cry like you guys say? The terrorists will realize we haven't a backbone, and go, "come on guys, let's invade the infidels homeland! WOOHOO!" And something else, if we run out crying and then tryand stop Iran they'll be like: Pfft. YOU guys, what'll ya do? Retreat? And guys, we didnt win WWII by being so F***** up by a few civilian deaths. We bombed the s*** out of them for the attacks, wetook casualties with am ore hard stomach. Could you imagine if George S. Patton jr. had said "We're not just gonna kill 'em. We will use their guts to grease our tank treads." The media would call him a horrible inhumane man. We win wars with a 'stiff upper lip' not wobbly knees. Show RESOLVE we cant let the place fall to pieces now. If we run away wait for 9/11 part 2 and 3 and 4 and 5 and the invasion of the U.S. Exactly. The radicalisdts won't just "let us go", they'll always be after us. And by putting them on the defensive on Iraq, we're allowing you people to seep safely at night.
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Post by CountessRachel on Jan 5, 2007 12:11:06 GMT -5
I dunno. I dare say it's actually harder to sleep at night knowing we're in a foreign country continuously pissing off people who don't care whether they live or die and will do whatever they possibly can to destroy their enemies.
Yes, I recognize the accomplishments, few and far between as they are, that being in Iraq as brought certain, select parties. But it's obvious there's no REAL end to this dilema. We might as well set up our own city while we're over there since there is no definitive "exit point." Their government is never going to be what WE want it to be. If we don't run out of troops we're gonna run out of feasible funding.
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Post by Lt. Dan on Jan 5, 2007 12:48:03 GMT -5
I dunno. I dare say it's actually harder to sleep at night knowing we're in a foreign country continuously pissing off people who don't care whether they live or die and will do whatever they possibly can to destroy their enemies. Yes, I recognize the accomplishments, few and far between as they are, that being in Iraq as brought certain, select parties. But it's obvious there's no REAL end to this dilema. We might as well set up our own city while we're over there since there is no definitive "exit point." Their government is never going to be what WE want it to be. If we don't run out of troops we're gonna run out of feasible funding. I couldn't agree with you more. There is no "win" to this war. If anything, there will be some political wool pulled over our eyes to get us out of there. We have entered into the fray of middle eastern politics - carrying a big stick (lol - spot the historical reference), we can't just leave. I bet we have fueled the fire for many a little budding terrorist-to-be. What can our country offer besides a standing militia?
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Jan 5, 2007 13:38:47 GMT -5
I dunno. I dare say it's actually harder to sleep at night knowing we're in a foreign country continuously pissing off people who don't care whether they live or die and will do whatever they possibly can to destroy their enemies. I'd find it harder to sleep knowing tht were doing s*** about the fact that there are people whose biggest goal is to kill us.
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Post by Consonant*** on Jan 6, 2007 0:05:16 GMT -5
I dunno. I dare say it's actually harder to sleep at night knowing we're in a foreign country continuously pissing off people who don't care whether they live or die and will do whatever they possibly can to destroy their enemies. I'd find it harder to sleep knowing tht were doing s*** about the fact that there are people whose biggest goal is to kill us. Exactly. America is, right now, in the middle of Cujo, if you think about it.
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Post by demonofthewest on Jan 6, 2007 0:50:25 GMT -5
Why, Klepto, I had no idea you were already fighting in Iraq! I mean, otherwise, there would be no pointing in saying "we're" now would there? And say what you will, Captain Klepto, I'm not sleeping any more safely because of the war in Iraq. I sleep less soundly knowing that more and more Iraqis are growing angry at our presence, and that the stability of the Middle East is deteriorating. I sleep less soundly knowing that bin Laden is free, probably sipping martinis while watching an old enemy of his hang on Youtube. I sleep less soundly knowing that my friends in the military risk death for a war that makes our country no safer than before.
And replaced him with a civil war
Which has become a laughable joke that the Iraqis see through
For terrorist recruiters, sure. I mean, without us, what would be the point for usually law abiding citizens of Iraq to join terrorists? Thank goodness we're staying the course so their hatred can fester uncontrollably.
Ah, I was wondering when the meaningless WWII reference would return. How I missed it so. No, Historyman12, we did not win WWII by bein "F***** up" by civilian deaths. We won it by having brilliant leaders, huge troop numbers, and competent allies, something sorely missing in this present war. I wonder, Historyman12, what point you were trying to make here. I assume you're trying to say, "Hey, we blew up innocent Germans left and right and nobody cared". Indeed we did. However, Americans aren't concerned only by civilian deaths. We're concerned about killing civilians in vain. Oh, and there's the whole "our troops are dying for no point" thing that has us annoyed. Which brings me to another statement.
Let me enlighten you. Wars are not won merely by having "stiff upper lips". If that was true, then the stubborn would always win. That is not the case. Wars are won by knowing what the hell we're doing. Wars are won with a mixture of resources, strategy, and, yes, determination. You can have a stiff upper lip as long as you want. Once a bullet rips through your skull, it doesn't really matter what facial expression you were showing.
Now, Captain Klepto, I know you'll probably yell at me for merely implying that I, a mere mortal, not even a Marine, would know a thing about military strategy. However, I have studied countless wars, and I know what it takes to win one. And at the moment, America can not win this war with the conditions it has set out. If our goal was simply to kill everyone in Iraq, we could be done by morning. We certainly have the weapons to do it. However, "victory" in Iraq's case isn't victory in the traditional sense. There are so many conditions to be met that we can't pull it off. Maybe if our leaders were smarter, or our troops larger, we could do it. But pulling it off now with our present strategy and troop count requires nothing short of a miracle. And I don't see one coming any time soon.
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Post by Consonant*** on Jan 6, 2007 14:58:43 GMT -5
I'm aware that changes to be made, but retreating is not one of them.
You misunderstand my position, I am not happy with the way this war has been run. The generals in our country are not very smart, and our troop count is too low. we need more and better troops in Iraq. They need to ramp up the number of real troops (Soldiers, Marines and the Marine Corps Reserve), and pull out the Army Reserve. They need to PROPERLY train the Army Reserve (Half of them signed up for the free money. They basically represent what will happen in the draft, I.E. Abu Graihb). We need to put more REAL troops in Baghdad, and put the newly-reformed Army Reserve in the quieter areas. I feel the war has been MISHANDLED, and if you blame everything on the president, you don't understand a war at all.
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Post by CountessRachel on Jan 6, 2007 15:10:16 GMT -5
I dunno. I dare say it's actually harder to sleep at night knowing we're in a foreign country continuously pissing off people who don't care whether they live or die and will do whatever they possibly can to destroy their enemies. I'd find it harder to sleep knowing tht were doing s*** about the fact that there are people whose biggest goal is to kill us. Well if that's the case, then why aren't we at North Korea's front doors trying to confiscate their WMDs? Iran supposedly has a blossoming nuke program, though they won't say what it's for, and they seem pretty hell-bent on taking out America/Israel. There are lots of other people out there not living in Iraq whose biggest goal is to kill us. Now why in the world aren't we out there trying to get them too?
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