yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by yiceman on Feb 4, 2007 4:10:36 GMT -5
^Probably a good idea. The idea about choosing love vs. a way to save the world has been done before too, the main example that comes off the top of my head is the matrix. In just about every case, the hero chooses love, and then whaddyaknow, there's some loophole and he gets both. That's something that's always irked me a little, hence one of my previous theories. I know it probably has a 40% chance or less of happening, but I've always looked forward to the story that tells of the hero choosing responsibility over romance. It's nothing to do with the characters or shipping, it's my hope that a show that has not dissapointed me yet might be the first to go there, to step away from what's expected. I don't want there to suddenly be some loophole at the end that magically lets him have both.
In my honest opinion, that would provide substantial growth to Aang's character, revealing A) the tragic duties he's forced to accept, B) his capacity to think rationally and choose what would be best for the world.
Now, spook, I know the very thought that this might possibly happen makes you vomit with rage, so I'm not trying to rekindle a dead arguement. But the idea still seems very plausible to me, so I'm sticking to it and hoping to generate some thought among other folks who might not have made up their minds quite as firmly yet.
About Aang entering the Avatar State at the end: Yeah he did it successfully. I just think he did it for the wrong reasons. Just because it worked doesn't make it right.
|
|
|
Post by spook on Feb 4, 2007 6:55:02 GMT -5
Let's not. While I wasn't expecting to offend you, some people really explode on me when I question kataang. Aah, partypooper. Don't worry, if any Kataanger goes berserk on you, I'll personally slap him into submission. You really seem to have the wrong impression of me. I'm not some rabid Kataang-shipping extremist who goes into a frenzy whenever anybody dares raise their finger at my ship. I just enjoy the interaction between Katara and Aang, both platonic and romantic. All I want them to have is a happy ending, and both Katara and Aang have shown many times that they are happy in each others presence. You say "let them be kids", I say "let them find happiness". And if two of my favorite characters can find happiness in each other, well, then it's only logical I start shipping them. As long as they're happy. Now, if you want to see Avatar transform into some sort of Shakespearian tragedy, that's fine by me. I personally find the odds of that happening very small, but if the thought appeals to you, then by all means, support it. You don't seem to think romance and responsibility can go hand-in-hand, well I do. Let's just leave it at that. And you may think that if you want to. All I was saying is that the likelihood of it being the intent of the authors is rather small, as nothing seems to hint in that direction.
|
|
|
Post by lunauc on Feb 4, 2007 19:08:17 GMT -5
Aah, partypooper. Don't worry, if any Kataanger goes berserk on you, I'll personally slap him into submission. Well... I tried. But Amira read the post and cut out the whole thread in reaction to my views. Thankfully Amira accepted an apology and put the thread back, sans my post. But... yeah... about what I was expecting. Ant more bright ideas Spook?
|
|
yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by yiceman on Feb 4, 2007 22:13:14 GMT -5
My post get cut too? Pretty sure I replied earlier today, but now it's gone.
|
|
|
Post by Amira on Feb 4, 2007 22:17:42 GMT -5
My post get cut too? Pretty sure I replied earlier today, but now it's gone. Yeah, accidentally. My comp lagged as I was deleting. Sorry.
|
|
yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by yiceman on Feb 4, 2007 22:19:01 GMT -5
S'ok. Is it possible to bring it back? Took me a while to type out.
|
|
|
Post by lunauc on Feb 4, 2007 22:25:49 GMT -5
S'ok. Is it possible to bring it back? Took me a while to type out. Try in your recent posts in your profile.
|
|
yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by yiceman on Feb 5, 2007 0:44:33 GMT -5
Ok here goes take two.
I think my impression is correct. You're a smart guy and you like kataang. That's well and good, the downside is you apparently think I must be a twisted, spiteful person who wants to see Aang miserable if I could possibly suggest anything other than kataang happening. Not so, I'm just coming up with ideas and possible endings that would be more interesting than "boy gets girl." Boy gets girl is well and fine, but it's been done so much it's boring in my eyes. Remember, these are characters in a story, not real people who would be heartbroken if the creators kept them apart.
So I'm tossing around ideas for what I would think would be a far more interesting and outside the box ending. And no, I don't think romance and responsibility are mutually exclusive. I think, based on what the guru said, that mastering full control of one's spiritual potential in the avatar state and deep romance are. I know you disagree spook, and I know your arguements.
But for the sake of debate, I'm going to keep asuming for some wild reason that the guru meant exactly what he said until proven otherwise.
I know this theory is a bit of a longshot, but please don't dismiss it. And please, please don't assume I'm just an evil gremlin who wants to see Aang suffer because I have a skewed perspective on "true love."
Here's why I think it would make a good ending: It would show far more character growth. We would look at Aang and think "He's got a good head on his shoulders if he can make such an unselfish decision. The world's in good hands." If he hooked up with Katara in the end, what would the message be? You'll always get what you want?
Now I already know what you'll say: "The message would be 'love will find a way' 'true love conquers all' etc." Well and good, but the focus of this show hasn't been romance. The central theme seems to be Aang rising up and accepting his responsibilities as the avatar. He's already having to handle duties far beyound what a regular kid has to do, why not this? Because it's something Aang really wants? He really wanted the Air Nomads to not die too. He really wanted to not be the Avatar.
I'm not looking for an ending where Aang his huddled in a corner crying in misery. I'm looking for an ending where Aang is faced with this choice of telling Katara his feelings or saving the world. If he chose the responsibilities of being the avatar, it would be something he didn't want to do, but something he knew would be for the best. It would add so much maturity to his character, reveal him as a resonable, rational being who knows his duties, and who is willing to self-sacrifice for the good of others. Preposterous! you say? Jesus did it ;0
Why do I want to see this? Well on topic with the common themes seen in avatar and other shows, the "good guy has to chose the live of his love one vs the life of the world" scenario has been done. What irks me about this, is that the hero ALWAYS choses love. This would be fine, except, by some miraculous loophole, he manages to save his love and the world. This is what I don't like; the cheap loopholes. Those just seem like me to be an attempt to say "he loves her so much, he's willing to sacrifice the world!" while...not actually sacrificing the world. I don't want a loophole to happen. I don't want the guru to show up and say "Haha, you thought I was serious? I was totally joking about that whole 'let her go' thing." I've been looking forward to the show that steps away from this, keeps away from loopholes and either has the hero choose his responsibilites and lose his loved one, or choose his loved one and be responsible for the lives of many, many more people. I prefer the first scenario myself, because one man's happyness < the lives of many people imo.
In case you missed it, I mentioned a book once, called the Farseer trilogy.
Book 1. Fitz has a deep crush on Molly the entire book. Book 2. Fitz and Molly fall in love, she gets pregnant, he has to fake his death to save his life. Book 3. He's on the run, she thinks he's dead, so Molly hooks up with Fitz's oldest friend. By the time Fitz has the oportunity to go tell her he's still alive, she's married and has even more children. So, even though he still loved her deeply, Fitz chooses not to reveal himself to her, simply because it would disrupt and confuse her, making her feel guilty. He gives up being with the woman he loved and his own daughter, just so they could live a happy life without him. They never found out he was still alive.
Fitz and Molly's relationship was 2, nay 3 times more canon than Katara and Aang's is, and developed and died in the course of 3 books (what tv show has 3 books?). Now at first after reading this I though "Why'd he do that?" But on reconsideration, I think he made the best choice. Instead of just going "ok, they hooked up in the end, just like we all suspected would happen." and setting the book aside, it kept me thinking about it after I had finished reading it. I began asking myself "Would I be strong enough to do that?" because I knew, in the end, he made the wisest, most selfless choice. And he wasn't miserable in the end either; he was happy Molly was safe and happy. This is what I think would be a good ending: not a sad Aang who feels cheated by some spiritual "no-love" rule, but an Aang who is proud of himself for being strong, confident in his abilities to be the avatar, and happy that Katara can live a happy and safe life.
Now I'm not trying to rekindle a dead debate. I already know you don't like the idea, and I'm not looking to convince you, though hopefully I can inspire some thought elsewhere. Basically, spook, all I want from you is a simple "Maybe, but I still think differently." You never once gave me that much, instead replying as if you thought I was a grinch who hates love. I'm not asking you to change your mind, just don't dismiss the idea and consider it stupid. This IS a possible theory, one which could very likely happen (thought probably won't), so don't toss it aside by thinking I'm just attempting to kill a ship.
Just think about it.
|
|
|
Post by spook on Feb 5, 2007 2:35:35 GMT -5
Ok here goes take two. I think my impression is correct. You're a smart guy and you like kataang. That's well and good, the downside is you apparently think I must be a twisted, spiteful person who wants to see Aang miserable if I could possibly suggest anything other than kataang happening. Not so, I'm just coming up with ideas and possible endings that would be more interesting than "boy gets girl." Boy gets girl is well and fine, but it's been done so much it's boring in my eyes. Remember, these are characters in a story, not real people who would be heartbroken if the creators kept them apart. Dude, you really have to stop making flawed assumptions about me. It doesn't make you look any more credible, especially when you start contradicting everything I've already previously said to prove you wrong on this. I don't hate, nor do I think bad of you if you don't ship Kataang. Personal opinions do not bother me. And a large part of him accepting his role ironically enough comes through the love of his friends and family, especially Katara. Half the reason he's come this far is because he has others to depend on and doesn't have to do everything on his own. Romance might not be a major theme of the story, but love most definately is. Just because it's not always the fluffy, blushy kinda love doesn't mean it's love. I have never dismissed your theory as pure nonsense. Half the discussion we had previously was about me telling you that we were talking about theories, about speculations based on our own imaginations, thus saying exactly what you are saying now. Back then you seemed to have the idea that your theory was already a universally accepted truth. I'm glad you dropped that attitude. So I'll reiterate what I've already been saying for a long time: it is possible your theory is true. I just doubt it. Not because I'm some rabid Kataanger who desperately wants to see Aang and Katara together, but because of logical and rational reasons. Eh? is that sarcasm I'm smelling?
|
|
yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by yiceman on Feb 5, 2007 4:24:05 GMT -5
^ All I wanted really. I don't recall you ever once admitting that my theory is possible before now. I would like to defend your statement that I considered my theory to be truth though. Go back and read what I wrote, you'll see I quite often used phrases like "I think" and agreed that things will likely change during the next season. I try to, in every theory I make, state that these are just my opinions. I've known from the start this theory's a longshot, mostly based around what I think would be an interesting storytelling element, and my arguements have been in defence that the idea is possible, not that it WILL happen. I'm not willing to be money on this.
I guess I got the idea that you were trying to pass me off as someone who simply disliked the Katara/Aang romance from a number of statements, ranging from accusing me of prejudice for saying I think Aang's too young, to things like "You don't seem to think romance and responsibility go hand in hand" which I admittadly took as attempts to label me as the bad guy who's against love. Even your statement above telling me to stop making flawed assumptions about you, it doesn't make me look any more "credible," was quite condenscending. I'm not trying to make flawed assumptions, and I see you ignored the complementry part of my statement. You say you just want to see Katara and Aang happy, yet from the way you've defended the ship so adamently and with such vehemence at times it makes me consider that you're not open at all to any alterior ideas other than the two of them being together. You say you're not a rabid kataanger, and you're not, but I've never once seen you defend any other topic the way you do this ship. I made my assumptions that you considered my ideas rediculous and impossible based on the fact that, before not, you never once admitted they might happen. Now that you have, I'll forget it. In the past now; perhaps we should stop trying to analyze one another since we both seem to get it wrong each time.
I read the post where lunauc posted his true, un-edited opinion of kataang...juicy stuff ;0 Maybe he'll PM them to you if you ask.
I fear we've highjacked the thread once again. Honestly, anyone feel free to step in to these debates. Without fresh faces and arguements things get bogged down.
P.S. Spook I dare you to argue in favor of Zutara in the new weekly discussion topic at the top of the relationships board. Use your best, most solid ideas to argue why that ship could work. THAT would be something to see ;p
|
|
Power
Fire Lord Zuko
Kataangian Elite. Air/Water Warrior
Toph and Sokka. Every day they get closer to each other.
Posts: 8,513
|
Post by Power on Feb 5, 2007 10:22:01 GMT -5
Just a reminder guys, please do not get personal in here. Continue to debate, but if it gets snippy in here, this may get locked. Please keep that in mind.
|
|
|
Post by spook on Feb 5, 2007 11:30:41 GMT -5
I guess I got the idea that you were trying to pass me off as someone who simply disliked the Katara/Aang romance from a number of statements, ranging from accusing me of prejudice for saying I think Aang's too young, to things like "You don't seem to think romance and responsibility go hand in hand" which I admittadly took as attempts to label me as the bad guy who's against love. Even your statement above telling me to stop making flawed assumptions about you, it doesn't make me look any more "credible," was quite condenscending. I'm not trying to make flawed assumptions, and I see you ignored the complementry part of my statement. You say you just want to see Katara and Aang happy, yet from the way you've defended the ship so adamently and with such vehemence at times it makes me consider that you're not open at all to any alterior ideas other than the two of them being together. You say you're not a rabid kataanger, and you're not, but I've never once seen you defend any other topic the way you do this ship. I made my assumptions that you considered my ideas rediculous and impossible based on the fact that, before not, you never once admitted they might happen. Now that you have, I'll forget it. In the past now; perhaps we should stop trying to analyze one another since we both seem to get it wrong each time. My apologies if I somehow sounded insulting. It just tends to tick me off when people make assumptions on how I think when what they are saying is actually not true. Perhaps I was condescending, but you continuously repeating on how I want to see Aang and Katara together started to sound a little condescending to, as if you were subtly trying to say that I'm not capable of reasonable thinking because I have Kataang goggles on. The reason why I defend Kataang so much is because I find shipdebates to be the most interesting. All other debates are mostly theoretical discussions about possibilities in season 3, but since we don't know anything about season 3, there's preciously little to debate about. In shipdiscussions I can at least work with what has been given to me so far, I have substance to work with, but just because I find these types of discussions the most interesting doesn't mean I watch the show purely because of the shipping. The primary reasons are really because it just has such a topnotch story and because I'm a total geek for oriental cultures. My love for Kataang is not because I fantasize or dream about it, but purely because I love how it has been integrated into the storyline. So really it's just a secondary part of the primary reason why I watch this show (if that makes any sense at all). I just love the interaction between them, platonic and romantic. and I am going to enjoy their interaction next season, no matter what route the creators decide to take. And lastly, there is the significant difference between what I want to happen and what I think is going to happen. I personally think Katara and Aang are going to end up together. Not because I so desperately want them to, but because there is plenty of reason to believe they will. I already believed this before I started shipping Kataang (indeed, I was once a non-shipper like you) and I will continue to believe this, no matter what obstacles they will keep throwing in it's path. And that's why I defend it, that's why I defend Kataang whenever someone attacks it with an argument I disagree with, not purely because of personal desire, but also because of personal thoughts and beliefs. If you say something about Kataang which I don't agree with, then I'm not going to stay quiet. Anyway, let's just move on now that these things have been rectified. Next time we meet, let's not try to analyze each others personalities and just focus on each others' arguments, like discussions are supposed to be held. Why, he already has of course. I'm the one who asked him to post it in the first place. ;D Why don't you dare me to jump into a pool of hydrochloric acid while chewing on a cyanide pill now you're at it? Well, maybe I will, at the risk of burning my own fingers off in the process. P.S., like I said before, you caught me on a bad time during our last discussion, because I was suffering from a fever and was in a very bad mood. That's why I sounded so bitter and offensive, not because I can't accept the ideas of others.
|
|
willbaker
Teo
true power comes from within
Posts: 427
|
Post by willbaker on Feb 5, 2007 13:15:49 GMT -5
ZUTARA-im thinking something big will happen at the end, just like season 2 KATAANG- there will be hints all throughought possibly something big SOPH- something more interesting may happen but nothing much SUKKI- i think a lot more development will happen IF suki is found again WURO- if they meet who knows? SUKOPH-who knows MAIKO- something may happen if ty lee and mai betray azula AZUKI-?!? ZUKOPH- i dont think this will happen
|
|
zutarian4eva
Avatar Aang
Never judge a person from the outside, what counts is the inside...
Posts: 1,110
|
Post by zutarian4eva on Feb 5, 2007 16:04:16 GMT -5
I think the Creators TRIED to end the shipping wars...since they couldn't now they need to make an... SHIPPING AVATAR! BALANCES OUT THE SHIPPING IN ORDER TO CREATE PEACEFUL HARMONY! XD
|
|
yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by yiceman on Feb 5, 2007 17:11:25 GMT -5
C'mon spook, I argued in favor of kataang and taang there ;p It's a great exercise in discussion. I double-dog dare you! I also think kataang will happen, but my theory was the only chance I saw of it not happening. If it's a sure thing, it's not fun. So I'm at a 60/40 percentage sure that it'll happen.
What do you think of other ships, then? You like debating them, but I've never seen you talk about any others. Pick one and tear it to pieces/support it and maybe I'll agree ;0
|
|