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Post by rocio on Mar 7, 2007 13:21:19 GMT -5
To the point that I have noticed that all arrived is that Aang is very dependent. He lacks more independence in his decitions and actions, and not always depending on the company and the presence of others (for example of Katara).
Zuko is more independent, for that reason I do not doubt that it happens what you say Amira. Zuko works alone; but that is what has taken him to many errors.
On the contrary; Zuko needs to trust others so that they help him.
And Aang needs to learn to being more independent. By his dependency takes it to the perdición; as it happened to the end of the second season.
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Post by lunauc on Mar 7, 2007 15:15:33 GMT -5
Hello, hello. ;D
I come bearing a gift. Dince a few Zutaraians were so friendly to me after my arguement with Spook in the Sky Castle, I felt I should give something back. And I figured what better gift than a correction to the Zutara Yin Yang theory so many Kataang's scoff at because they think it's just nonsensical fangirls going, "He's fire, she's water, that's Yin Ying! OMG!" Feel free to use what I give you below however you please.
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Yin is the female force, passive, cold, receptive and it represents enlightenment and often the moon. Symbollically this adheres very well to Katara who is of course female, and passive and receptive can pretty well describe her soft touch method of handling Aang. And she does promote a more thought out and cautious manner to Aang as a voice of enlightenment. As for Moon, waterbender, moon, I figure that's easy enough to understand. And cold can technically be represented by her penchant for freezing opponents in ice.
Yang is the male force, active, willful, heated, representing ignorance and the sun. If willful, firey and ignorant doesn't describe Zuko, I don't know what does. And of course sun equals firebender, yada yada.
Now that we have the easy points out of the way, pegging them as Yin and Yang, we need to explain how they come to oppose one another in the story. First we have to start with common ground to join them closer into one unit. Note the similarities in their backgrounds. Both have lost their mother, have become estranged from their fathers and were raised by and older single relative(Iroh/Gran). For both the Fire Nation has been responsible for the tragedies of their lives and now both follow the Avatar thinking it will make their lives better. So, their backgrounds are similar, yet they are also opposite to one another. Katara's family was common and loving. Zuko's was rich, yet harsh. Katara's father left to protect them, by fighting the fire nation. Ozai drove his son off, seeing him as a weakness to the Fire Nation. Sokka is a loving and protective older brother. Azula is a spiteful, cold-hearted witch of a little sister. Katara follows and protects the Avatar believeing he will save the world and provide her and everyone else a better life. Zuko pursues the Avatar to capture him and gain a better life for himself. So, yes, they are in opposition to one another on all points. But this still does not make them a Yin and Yang pairing, just two people who are opposite to one another. To complete the circle, you need the element to which they represent the two defining sides. That element is Aang. He is the one the cycle around, one as a proponent of good and caring and enlightenment, the other as a source of anger, malice and selfishness. Around him they orbit one another in constant opposition. In this, they are the literary Yin and Yang of the story.
Let me go a bit deeper for further reference. I'll use the two season finales Katara/Zuko scenes as examples. In Siege of the North, Katara is protecting Aang in Tui and La's grotto, when Zuko comes to attack and capture the Avatar. With him their as their focal point, they fight without hesitation. We can also throw in the power ups either gets from the moon and the sun, as Katara had the upper hand until the sun arose. Now as we move into the season two Ba Sing Se cave scene, when Zuko and Katara are placed without Aang there to act as the dividing focus of their Yin and Yang, they do not fight. They actual talk and sympathize with one another. But as soon as Aang comes back into the picture their opposition quickly returns. Thus, with Aang as the element they oppose over, Zuko and Katara do complete a Yin and Yang pairing, in a literary sense. The question though is whether or not the writers put these things into the show intentionally, or if they arose by pure coincidence. I have no idea. The point is only that it is there to interpret whether it is meant in canon or not.
Hoever, we must keep in mind, Yin-Yang is an Eastern philosophy. "Opposites Attract" is a romanticised Western idea. So, we can not say that just because they represent Yin and Yang, that they are meant to be romantically linked, as these are tow different ideals. In actuality, representing Yin and Yang means they are to constantly oppose one another, at least as long as Aang is part of the equation. But don't go giving up hope just yet. After all, while the writers may claim to be heavily influenced by Eastern ideals, they themselves are very much American, and use western ideals and pop culture in their writing gratuitously. So, there's no way of knowing at this point whether or not "Opposites Attract" has a place in Avatar.
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Post by rocio on Mar 7, 2007 15:30:34 GMT -5
Thanks Lunauc for the info!!!!!!!!!
Its so good to know more about the Ying and yang n_n
Is one of the most favorites theories of Zutara. But I have to say that my favorite is about the destiny; the destiny and the honor are something pretty Strong in the story n_n
Also the legend of the romance of the Dragoon (water) and the Phoenix (fire) that represent the Ying and Yang is one of my favorites n_n
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Post by luthien on Mar 7, 2007 15:52:58 GMT -5
Thanks for the info on Yin and Yang. Though it should be noted that although they are opposite forces, they are not necessarily opposing forces. They are complementary, and one cannot function properly without the other - they are interdependent. There is always some Yin contained in Yang, and some Yang contained in Yin (hence the small dots). This is why the symbolism comes up so often in weddings in Eastern cultures, especially Chinese (Yin and Yang being represented by the Lung/Dragon and Fenghuang/Phoenix). Traditional Chinese wedding attire usually includes embroidery of dragons and phoenixes. There's even a dish called (at least among members of my family) "Yin Yang Chow Fan," which is sometimes called "Honeymoon Rice" in English. (Sorry for the off-topicness there - I've picked up some stuff from my husband's Chinese family. ;D)
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Post by lunauc on Mar 7, 2007 16:02:55 GMT -5
Quite true Luthien, and as someone very wise pointed out to me after my post, Katara has at times in the show herself been forceful, ignorant and heated, as pressures of their journey have born upon her. And Zuko has had thoughtful, considerate and heroic scenes, as he gains some enlightenment through all of this.
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ayame409
Aang
Zutara is better than chocolate! X3 [avatar made by the infamous EndlessFlame!!!]
Posts: 72
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Post by ayame409 on Mar 7, 2007 16:46:32 GMT -5
Thank yous to lunauc!!!!! *sqeelz* That was beautifully put. Now I have a whole new perspective to the Zutara ship! Thank you! ;D
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Post by aangryjerk on Mar 7, 2007 17:14:36 GMT -5
That is a really cool theory Lunauc. It could be more than just a shipping rationale, but a real part of the character interactions in the show. I'd say it's worthy of the Theories Board, but I'm not sure I'd want to see a bunch of rabid shippers there ;P
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Post by spook on Mar 7, 2007 17:17:02 GMT -5
I have been asked my Lunauc to give my response on the Zutarian concept of Yin/Yang, this time using a more friendly demeanor. And since it's only logical to do so, since I didn't really clarify on the matter of why I so ardently disagree with, I think I will. Feel free to agree or disagree and to post accordingly. I promise, I will not bite your head off. But first of all I'd like to apologize. It seems my behavior was considered to be rude and apparantly I intimidated several members, who, according to Lunauc, were actually afraid to post a response. This was not my intention. I'm an outspoken kinda guy, and if I disagree with something, I tend to employ a lot of sarcasm and cynicism, sometimes to the point where I cross a line. As I said, I'll try to keep the negativism to a minimum. Now, there are two main reasons why I believe Zutarians are wrong when they envision the embodiement of Yin/Yang in Zuko/Katara. The first one being the fact they do not seem to differentiate between symbolism and realism. Why are Zuko and Katara Yin and Yang? The answer often used is that their natural surroundings, their upbringings, their enviroments etc mirror each other. Katara is water, Zuko is fire. Katara was raised in a small, insignificant village, Zuko in a palace. Zuko rises with the sun, Katara rises with the moon. One could claim that all these factors mirror each other, they are parralels, opposites and thus Yin/Yang. But that argument in inherently flawed, because it does not describe Zuko and Katara as individuals themselves. Zuko and Katara are not Yin/Yang because they have opposing elements, because they have opposing childhoods etc. All of that is totally irrelevent if you are looking at Zuko/Katara. Because for Zuko/Katara to be Yin/Yang, you must look at them. Two individuals could be from the same nation, wear the same outfit, have the same kind of childhood, and still these two have as much possibility of being Yin/Yang as two individuals who don't share these things. And unfortunately, if you analyze Katara and Zuko as individuals, rather than throwing all kinds of exterior, irrelevent elements into the mix, you can't conclude they are Yin/Yang. They just have too much in common. Both are impatient. Both are empathetic. Both have had traumatized pasts. Both have shown signs of naivity and gullibility. Sure, they have differences, but so do all people. Everybody is different. Differences alone don't warrant a Yin/Yang analogy. It takes a lot more than that. The second reason is that differences are only half of what Yin/Yang is about. The other half is that these differences must complement each other. Two sides of the same whole, two polar opposites which can not exist without the other. The day cannot exist without the night. Life cannot exist without death. Love cannot exist without hate. These opposites balance each other out, because without one, the other cannot exist. And once again, in a literal, realistic interpretation of the philosophy, Katara and Zuko do not fit the bill. Katara could easily exist without Zuko, and Katara is not Zuko's reason for existence either. It's basically as simple as that. Those are the two reasons why considering Zuko/Katara to be Yin/Yang is IMO fallacious. Lunauc, in his analogy of considering Aang to be the deciding factor in the comparison with Yin/Yang, has a good and valid theory, but not one that supports the idea of Zuko/Katara being Yin/Yang. Only that their respective roles with regards to Aang can be interpreted as such. And that's true, symbolically many things can be interpreted as Yin/Yang. Aang's conflict over letting go of Katara could be considered a Yin/Yang conflict. The same could be said about Zuko's personal conflicts. Sokka and Katara's individual relationships with Aang could be interpreted as Ying/Yang (Sokka brings up his cheerfull, playfull side/Katara brings up his serious side). But these examples are all symbolical, and when applying Taoism, you must always differentiate between symbolism and literalism. Yin/Yang symbolism isnt all that special and can be found practically everywhere you look, so I'm sure some things about Zuko/Katara can be interpreted as Yin/Yang. But to actually be the unambiguous, absolute incarnation of Yin/Yang, that requires a lot, lot more. In fact, no two persons are ever totally Yin/Yang. I don't believe in the embodiement of Yin/Yang. If you wish to apply Yin/Yang in a literal sense, then don't look at two people, just look at one. Aang's conflict over letting go of Katara, like I mentioned before, could for example be explained as literally being Yin/Yang. The two options are (or at least seem to be) polar opposites: Love / No Power // No Love/ Power. They literally balance each other out, since they cannot exist without each other. Without either of them, there would be no conflict. So the conflict itself is essentially based on Yin/Yang. So that's my take on the Yin/Yang thing. Yes, Zuko/Katara can be have roles, character-traits etc that could be interpreted as Yin/Yang, but that doesn't make them Yin/Yang. That way, everybody can be seen as Yin/Yang. But they're not. Remember that, and you have the key to applying Yin/Yang correctly.
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Mar 7, 2007 17:26:39 GMT -5
I can agree with that, spook.
The stereotypical assumption of Zutara is 'omgwtfyay11! we have yin/yang." And I just think that's undermining them.
Looking at the two, Zutarians often contradict themselves (as I have done before) by saying "They're Yin/Yang" then going on to say with in a few posts "They're so similar."
And what's wrong with having similarities? I know most of their similarities aren't exactly admirable qualities, but why do they *have* to be Yin/Yang?
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tara22
Warrior Sokka
mmmwaa....ouch, my lips
Posts: 764
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Post by tara22 on Mar 7, 2007 18:15:37 GMT -5
lunauc & spook - thank you both for taking the time to explain your thoughts. You've both wrote some really interesting things. It is interesting that Katara and Zuko act differently towards eachother when Aang is not around. Although they do embody some of the yin yang symbolisms, they are also similar. Even though it's obvious how conflicted Aang is/was over his decision to let Katara go, it never occured to me that he was actually embodying yin/yang himself. But it does make sense since the Avatar is the balancer and balance isn't all good or all evil. Actually, it may work even better for Zutara (even though that's not what you were intending, I imagine ) if they're aren't yin/yang, constantly opposing one another. There's just enough difference between them to make things interesting yet there's also their similarities that make them better able to relate to eachother.
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Pico
Haru
Rawr.
Posts: 339
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Post by Pico on Mar 7, 2007 18:28:05 GMT -5
Exactly. Yin/Yang relationships can be boring to watch, but so can twin relationships. Better to have a healthy mix of similarities and differences, to keep things interesting. Zutarians shouldn't hide behind 'opposites attract', but I wouldn't say that there is nothing to that theory.
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Post by rocio on Mar 7, 2007 18:38:51 GMT -5
I have been asked my Lunauc to give my response on the Zutarian concept of Yin/Yang, this time using a more friendly demeanor. And since it's only logical to do so, since I didn't really clarify on the matter of why I so ardently disagree with, I think I will. Feel free to agree or disagree and to post accordingly. I promise, I will not bite your head off. But first of all I'd like to apologize. It seems my behavior was considered to be rude and apparantly I intimidated several members, who, according to Lunauc, were actually afraid to post a response. This was not my intention. I'm an outspoken kinda guy, and if I disagree with something, I tend to employ a lot of sarcasm and cynicism, sometimes to the point where I cross a line. As I said, I'll try to keep the negativism to a minimum. Now, there are two main reasons why I believe Zutarians are wrong when they envision the embodiement of Yin/Yang in Zuko/Katara. The first one being the fact they do not seem to differentiate between symbolism and realism. Why are Zuko and Katara Yin and Yang? The answer often used is that their natural surroundings, their upbringings, their enviroments etc mirror each other. Katara is water, Zuko is fire. Katara was raised in a small, insignificant village, Zuko in a palace. Zuko rises with the sun, Katara rises with the moon. One could claim that all these factors mirror each other, they are parralels, opposites and thus Yin/Yang. But that argument in inherently flawed, because it does not describe Zuko and Katara as individuals themselves. Zuko and Katara are not Yin/Yang because they have opposing elements, because they have opposing childhoods etc. All of that is totally irrelevent if you are looking at Zuko/Katara. Because for Zuko/Katara to be Yin/Yang, you must look at them. Two individuals could be from the same nation, wear the same outfit, have the same kind of childhood, and still these two have as much possibility of being Yin/Yang as two individuals who don't share these things. And unfortunately, if you analyze Katara and Zuko as individuals, rather than throwing all kinds of exterior, irrelevent elements into the mix, you can't conclude they are Yin/Yang. They just have too much in common. Both are impatient. Both are empathetic. Both have had traumatized pasts. Both have shown signs of naivity and gullibility. Sure, they have differences, but so do all people. Everybody is different. Differences alone don't warrant a Yin/Yang analogy. It takes a lot more than that. The second reason is that differences are only half of what Yin/Yang is about. The other half is that these differences must complement each other. Two sides of the same whole, two polar opposites which can not exist without the other. The day cannot exist without the night. Life cannot exist without death. Love cannot exist without hate. These opposites balance each other out, because without one, the other cannot exist. And once again, in a literal, realistic interpretation of the philosophy, Katara and Zuko do not fit the bill. Katara could easily exist without Zuko, and Katara is not Zuko's reason for existence either. It's basically as simple as that. Those are the two reasons why considering Zuko/Katara to be Yin/Yang is IMO fallacious. Lunauc, in his analogy of considering Aang to be the deciding factor in the comparison with Yin/Yang, has a good and valid theory, but not one that supports the idea of Zuko/Katara being Yin/Yang. Only that their respective roles with regards to Aang can be interpreted as such. And that's true, symbolically many things can be interpreted as Yin/Yang. Aang's conflict over letting go of Katara could be considered a Yin/Yang conflict. The same could be said about Zuko's personal conflicts. Sokka and Katara's individual relationships with Aang could be interpreted as Ying/Yang (Sokka brings up his cheerfull, playfull side/Katara brings up his serious side). But these examples are all symbolical, and when applying Taoism, you must always differentiate between symbolism and literalism. Yin/Yang symbolism isnt all that special and can be found practically everywhere you look, so I'm sure some things about Zuko/Katara can be interpreted as Yin/Yang. But to actually be the unambiguous, absolute incarnation of Yin/Yang, that requires a lot, lot more. In fact, no two persons are ever totally Yin/Yang. I don't believe in the embodiement of Yin/Yang. If you wish to apply Yin/Yang in a literal sense, then don't look at two people, just look at one. Aang's conflict over letting go of Katara, like I mentioned before, could for example be explained as literally being Yin/Yang. The two options are (or at least seem to be) polar opposites: Love / No Power // No Love/ Power. They literally balance each other out, since they cannot exist without each other. Without either of them, there would be no conflict. So the conflict itself is essentially based on Yin/Yang. So that's my take on the Yin/Yang thing. Yes, Zuko/Katara can be have roles, character-traits etc that could be interpreted as Yin/Yang, but that doesn't make them Yin/Yang. That way, everybody can be seen as Yin/Yang. But they're not. Remember that, and you have the key to applying Yin/Yang correctly. I still don't know.. YTou are in favor o not of Zutara and Ying and Yang. Because I can see that you are not oin favor... In spite of demonstrating to be in counting; what you wrote seems more to support it than to contradict it. The dedición of Aang does not belong to the Ying to the Yang; single when letting go or not letting go; To the "to be or not to be". Not to the Ying and the Yang….
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Mar 7, 2007 18:40:17 GMT -5
Of course, Pico. I think a healthy mix of opinions is good, but ones like morals is important to share similar opinions.
But agreeing on every d*mn thing or disagreeing about everything is just boring.
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Post by rocio on Mar 7, 2007 18:45:02 GMT -5
I like the relationships that are not obvious and are difficult; for that reason I like Zutara. Is a good story; it can be dark (the betrayal), it can be romantic (the chat in the cave), it can be prohibited (different society, ideologies, culture and skin)..........
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Post by Karatelover on Mar 7, 2007 18:59:49 GMT -5
Yah Zuko needs to marry a cultural kind of gal, not someone like Mai, she's just a emontionless cell in my eyes.
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