WEEKLY DISCUSSION -- 2/25 - 3/4!!

[Amira]

Another discussion topic by our own Catalyst!

I expect everyone to behave themselves and remember that this is a discussion. People have opinions and whether you agree or disagree, your fellow DHers deserve respect.

Do not flame or attack. You all are articulate and intelligent enough to discuss topics like these with maturity and respect.

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Here's the next installment of the series of weekly discussions based on the readiness and capability of some of the characters to have a [romantic] relationship with another character.

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So we’ve talked about Azula and Zuko so far; about their personality traits and their actions, and whether or not they’d be ready for a relationship or if it would even be possible for either them to have a relationship now or later on [in the show].

Now we’re going to talk about Aang.

Aang, Aang, Aang. The main character of the show, the Avatar and the hero. (Though some of those can and will be debated) He’s been loved and he’s been hated. Ever since the season 2 finale (and maybe before that), people have been conflicted on the issue of him and his decisions, his maturity, and whether or not he can have a relationship; more specifically with Katara.

So to try and answer and decide on those issues; we must go to the root of them all. Where he was raised and how, his past and his decisions both at the beginning of the show and recently.

We’ve found out that Aang was raised in the Southern Air Temple though it seems he visited or maybe even possibly lived in the Eastern Air Temple and probably the others as well. He was born 112 years ago but because of being trapped in the iceberg for 100; is really only 12 years old. His past was obviously filled with very loving and caring people; and he was happy. When they told him he was the Avatar, everything changed. Suddenly he had all this responsibility and people no longer treated him the same.

In “The Storm” Aang regrets leaving; saying that he could have saved everyone if he had stayed, or he could have helped at least instead of having the whole air temple population (or so we know) being killed. Is he correct or would it been the same and he would have been killed as well if he had stayed?

Either way, there is no true way of knowing; but it is clear from that Aang, though he had skirted them before, was taking responsibility of his duties as the Avatar. It is true he lives two lives, one as the Avatar protecting the world, and one as a twelve year old boy just wanting to have fun.

But the question is; where does his responsibility as the Avatar end and where he’s “just one kid” begin? Was it his fault that he would have gotten himself killed [in the season 2 finale] had it not been for Katara or was it just all part of the grand scheme of things, tons of people making decisions and everyone’s actions reflect the consequences they all feel?

And what is responsibility exactly to you? Does responsibility correspond with maturity and if so, how?

The biggest question going around is should Aang have let go of Katara in the first place rather than close the chakra (and go try and save her), trying to open it in the end when all hope is lost? Where are the loopholes in either of these plans and where do the lines blur?

Is Aang is responsible (and to what point?) and is he mature (to what point?)? Is Aang ready to have a relationship, with Katara or otherwise?

[yiceman]

I've talked the other thing to death, and I don't think there's a single person on this site who doesn't know what I think.

So I'll talk about the other aspect, of Aang's maturity and personal readiness to have a romance.

Maturity-wise, he knows when to be serious and when to have fun, so I don't think that's much of a huge issue. As a person he is fully able to be in a relationship, due to his good qualities and nature.

Yet 12 in my eyes is still just a tad too young. The attraction for the opposite gender is only just manifesting itself in him, and that's really a stage for taking things easy until stuff cools off. He COULD get in a relationship, but really, odds are against a romance starting that young, because the people are still discovering who they are and how to deal with such things.

Personally I would advise him to give it a year or two to get things into perspective. This really isn't a time in a person's life for deep commitment and serious romantic involvement, I would think a period of light dating would be for the best. That gives him more experience and strengthens his fortitude, rather than building a dependence on one person or developing false notions which could be harmful for future relationships.

This is probably why I don't buy kataang. I see people using words "epic, pure and true love," and I think, where are these words coming from? How did anyones imagination craft a series of blushes into this beautifully bloated dramatic spectacle? I say this not to be rude, but to try and put things in perspective. It's fairly obvious that the fandom takes shipping WAY more serious than the creators EVER intended, and I have to point out that the romance of kataang seems to be at the head of the heard, likely because many consider it so obvious and likely to happen.

My point is, this romance was never ever EVER intended to impy true love, and deeply powerful romantic connections that form a lifelong bond. The characters are so young and inexperienced, to do so would be unrealistic and downright harmful.

By harboring such notions of such a serious lifelong romance at such a young age, I feel that it would only serve to bloat our societies misguided interpretations of "true love," implying that people should begin searching for something at age 12 which eludes most for their entire lives.

If they want to keep things realistic, it would be far more appropriate to keep things in a very easy-going manner, leaving any romances that do become canon open to developing further or failing completely. All other coming of age stories basically do the same thing, showing a gradual process of dating and rejection, because that's realistic and all around healthy.

So my opinions regarding Aang being alone in the end aside, in regards to ALL ships it is more likely and appropriate to avoid this fanatical idea of true and ever ending love. Which is basically why I dislike kataang. People take it too seriously, to the point where I feel it is sparking unheathy ideas of romance for a young audience.

[femaleairbender]

amiraelizabeth said:

In “The Storm” Aang regrets leaving; saying that he could have saved everyone if he had stayed, or he could have helped at least instead of having the whole air temple population (or so we know) being killed. Is he correct or would it been the same and he would have been killed as well if he had stayed?

I think it would have been the same whether or not if Aang ran away. Like Katara said in "The Storm," "I think it was meant to be." I believe Aang being frozen in the iceberg was meant to happen, and not just a huge coincidence.

amiraelizabeth said:

But the question is; where does his responsibility as the Avatar end and where he’s “just one kid” begin? Was it his fault that he would have gotten himself killed [in the season 2 finale] had it not been for Katara or was it just all part of the grand scheme of things, tons of people making decisions and everyone’s actions reflect the consequences they all feel?

I think it was all very overwhelming for Aang and he wasn't thinking straight.

amiraelizabeth said:

And what is responsibility exactly to you? Does responsibility correspond with maturity and if so, how?

Responsibility is doing what you know is right, even if you don't like it. I think maturity and responsibility go hand in hand.

amiraelizabeth said:

The biggest question going around is should Aang have let go of Katara in the first place rather than close the chakra (and go try and save her), trying to open it in the end when all hope is lost? Where are the loopholes in either of these plans and where do the lines blur?

No, because Aang had the vision of Katara being in danger. I don't think he could have let her go when there was a chance she was in danger, even if he wanted to. At the end, when Aang tried a second time to let Katara go, it was at a time where they were in danger and outnumbered. It was at this time where Aang realized he had to let go of Katara if there was any chance of coming out of that battle alive.

amiraelizabeth said:

Is Aang is responsible (and to what point?) and is he mature (to what point?)? Is Aang ready to have a relationship, with Katara or otherwise?

I think Aang is responsible in that he's trying to make up for the mistake he made a hundred years ago. Aang's maturity stems from that he knows when to be serious and when to be playful. I don't think Aang's ready for a relationship now, but maybe some time in the future.

[lunauc]

Hmmm... I'll avoid the romance stuff, since Yiceman has already said pretty much everything I'd say on the issue. Nicely done.

Instead I'll focus on Aang's maturity and responsibility. FIrst off, let me say, if he were the wholy matured and enlightened higher being that everyone things he's supposed to be just because he's the Avatar, there wouldn't be much of a story. He would not make the wrong choices, becauses he would slowly plot his course and know which moves to make. He would not be sidetracked by his emotions, because he would understand how to detatch himself from them to think clearly, and petty things like desire, hate, pride and greed would never get in his way. I would be really boring watching someone who already knows all the right moves to make go through what is supposed to be a dramatic story. So, we do not have a fully matured and responsible Avatar coming to save the world. We have a confused and guilt-ridden twelve year old kid doing it, because that's more entertaining. So, right off we have to toss aside notions of him being a paragon of purest intents just because he is the hero of the show and a gratuitously reborn spiritual entity. After all the basis of the show is built around the fact that he has not had the aid or the training or the prepartion he was meant to have.

So the question becomes, is he 'mature enough'? And I have to say no. He is still too impatientm and rushes headlong into things he regrets later. From forcing Jeong Jeong to teach him firebending before he was ready to seeking out Tui and La for some quick fix victory over the fire nation's siege on the Northern water tribe, it always turns out badly. And he hasn't broken himself of the habit. Just in the last couple episodes it can be seen, Even though he has not mastered all four elements, he rushes off to try and learn to control the Avatar State, which he has feared, in another attempt at a quick and easy victory. And as with his refusal to firebend following burning Katara, he refused to open the last chakra when he saw he had rushed into something he was not ready for. And as with Firebending, when a problem came up, he found an excuse in Katara to run away rather than face the problem. It could be said that he had the vision of Katara in danger at that moment because he was so close to his ultimate power, that he had a flash of clairvoyance. But I still have to wonder why he specifically had a vision of her at that moment. His 'Avatar Sense' did not go off when she was first attacked and captured or all that time after, right up until the moment that he had to face letting her go. To me, it still seems that he was the one reaching out to her, looking for an excuse not to let go. And 'luckily' for him, he found a reason in her capture.

Now, if he were mature and thoughtful, he would have stopped and considered the risks of stopping his training at this crucial moment and rushing in after her without any plan, putting them all in danger, and possibly losing the one weapon which would have made this fight winable. But he is a twelve year old, pubescent boy, so he did not stop too think, he followed his emotions straight into a dire situaiton. Even when he made what people keep calling the 'right decision' in trying to let go of Katara and open the chakra to save them both, he did it for the wrong motivation. Enlightenment is a deeply personal and spiritual thing. One must detatch one's self from emotional bindings and see the universe from a higher point. That is impossible while under fear of death while worrying you and the girl you like are going to die if you don't force yourself to forget her. It was a doomed attempt in my opinion, even if Azula had not sucker zapped him. Either that, or it's just badly written, which I feel having him go through stages of enlightenment which take the most devoted monks months and years in a single day was. It was just shy of Dragonball Z in completely unbelievable progress.

So, is he the mature, enlightened savior that a being such as the Avatar should be? No. Is he 'mature enough' to be a dramatical torn hero on a kid's action show with gigantic plotholes and nonsensical ability growth? Yeah, sure.

[Lexy]

I'm sorry lunuac, but I disagree with you, especially about the chakras. The chakras took a week for Aang to open, not a day. Every time a chakra-opening scene was on, it was a different time of day and Aang told sokka he would see him in about a week too. Aang seemed to concentrate on a different chakra each day or so with Pathik helping him the whole time.

I did a bit of research on chakras on the internet and apparently, in life people take a seven-week course on them, focusing on one chakra each week. I've even heard people who have gone through the process say it is really quite simple; it's mostly about meditating and visualization. My point is, even though the pacing of "The Guru" had quite a few problems, Aang getting through the chakras wasn't as cheap as your saying it was.

I'm really sorry, I'm not trying to be rude, but you seem to be making out Avatar to just be some silly kiddies’ action cartoon, when much more mature and thought out then many animated programs out today and a complex story line. I'm not saying it's perfect; nothing is. You just don't seem to be giving the show enough credit. Again, I'm if my comments offended you, I just wanted to express my opinion.

Now on topic, I think Aang is mature for his age, he knows when to be serious and he can have fun. He has taken on the responsibility of being the Avatar quite well and Katara has helped him immensely. However, he still has some more growing up to do and he needs to put his priorities as the Avatar above his feelings. So I don't he should or could try to handle a romantic relationship with Katara at this time.

[lunauc]

Nah, I'm not offended at all. I'm kind of glad you challenged me. When no one replied I thought I had 'One shot killed' another topic. Anyway, yeah, I do agree there are mature aspects and well thought out plot points to the show which make it worth watching, which is exactly why I will be disappointed if the writers end up carelessly settling for a goofy magical happy ending, just to appease young viewers. But that's my problem, so I'll set that aside. The fact remains this is still a kids' show, and their taret demographic is somewhere between eight and fourteen. So, adult concepts and drama which comes too close to realistic traumas might get them in trouble.

As for the chakra openings taking a week, no. The scenes are broken up into different parts of a day, getting progressively later as they go. And remember when he shows up to pick up Sokka. Sokka knew something was wrong, because Aang was back so early.

As for Aang being mature for a twelve year old, that's true. But that is mostly because he has had so much responsibility and guilt heaped onto him. However, mature for a 12 year old, does not make him fully matured. If anything all of the expectations of other has only made him more self-centered. He thinks that it is entirely his responsibility to save the world. Simply because he is the Avatar does not mean he is the only one who can stop the Fire Nation. But he knows others seem him as a symbol of hope and he incorporates that into his ego, reinforcing the inflated self view that he is the one and only person he must do this. And that ego and skewed perception only leads him to further mistakes.

Opening the chakras is a simple idea, yes. But to complete you must take the preparatory steps, and have a clear mind and confident spirit. Aang is neither of those things. Heck, right after he runs away from the chakra training and picks up his friends, when they ask him how his training went, what's the first thing he does? He lies! Which goes against the fifth chakra. He hasn't learned anything.

[spook]

lunauc said:

As for Aang being mature for a twelve year old, that's true. But that is mostly because he has had so much responsibility and guilt heaped onto him. However, mature for a 12 year old, does not make him fully matured. If anything all of the expectations of other has only made him more self-centered. He thinks that it is entirely his responsibility to save the world. Simply because he is the Avatar does not mean he is the only one who can stop the Fire Nation. But he knows others seem him as a symbol of hope and he incorporates that into his ego, reinforcing the inflated self view that he is the one and only person he must do this. And that ego and skewed perception only leads him to further mistakes.

I don't really see what this has to do with maturity. Any human being with a good sense of morality and responsibility would take on the role of "the One" if this were forced upon him by the world. Look at Neo in The Matrix, he's a fully grown adult who is forced to deal with the role of Chosen One as well. And I wouldn't consider Neo terribly immature. So I don't really see how taking on a role that the rest of the world is forcing upon you is a sign of immaturity, rather than a sign that you are responsible and mentally strong enough to handle that role.

I think what you illustrated is more descriptive of the Avatar World as a whole, rather than just of Aang's personality. Just like you said, Aang only takes up the role of Chosen One because it is forced upon him, not because he's an inherently arrogant person. The reason why he thinks he's the only one who can save the world, is because the world believes him to be just that. It's what I discussed with yiceman recently, the Avatar World has lost all sense of how to take care for itself, because it keeps looking up to one individual to take care off its problems all the time. The fact that the world has gone to hell due to the lack of an Avatar to save it is really all the proof you need to see this. Hell, even the people closest to him believe it. Katara herself said to Zuko that she considers Aang "the last hope for peace" (or something like that).

So I blame the Avatar World more than Aang for the fact that he seems to consider himself the only one capable of saving the world. Aang is twelve. He's young, inexperienced and susceptible to the ideas of others. If everybody keeps telling him he's the last hope for world peace, then of course that idea is going to screw with his mind. Avatar or not, the show has made it plenty clear that he's also still just a child. And children can easily be manipulated.

Uhm, that was off topic, but I had to get it off my chest. I've got to go to work in a few minutes, so maybe I'll add something on Aang and his (possible) lovelife later.

[lunauc]

Not to nitpick Spook, but you basically just agreed with me, gratutiously. Yes, he believes he is the only one who can solve everyones problems because so many people have insisted that he is. He allows his environment to dictate his identity. This is a key flaw in Aang, his continuous indecisiveness, but I'll leave that aside. Lets just focus on this 'Chosen One' matter for now. You compared him to Neo, but you forget that the Matrix was purposely playing toward Neo's ego, coaxing him to embrace this grand mantle as the hope and salvation of the destitute people to monopolize on that human flaw which is the ego. And yeah, even your average full grown adult will play along, because everyone wants to feel special and important. But the difference between the Matrix and the Avatarverse is that Avatar presumes ideals of wisdom and enlightenment with elements such as the opening of the chakras. THis means that at some point, if the writers take such notions seriously Aang will have to step back from his emotions, strip himself of his ego, his greed, his hatreds and his petty worldly desires in order to reach his final apotheosis as the Avatar. Will that actually happen on the show? I don't know. After all, the writers might just blow of such seemingly important factors to go for the more viewer satisfying and dramatic story. After all, they're story tellers, not fountains of divine knowledge and infoulable scholars. Want proof? In Crossroads Aang gets taken out by a lightning bolt while he's floating int he air! You can't be electrocute in mid air, since you are not touching anything to complete the circuit.

[Amira]

I was talking about this issue with my sister (who loves AtLA) and she brought up a good point about Aang:

Everyone is condemning Aang for his choice in leaving the Guru and saying he's selfish, he chose wrong, blah blah blah. But you have to look at it from Aang's perspective as well. Yes, his feelings for Katara dictated some of his choice, but he is also afraid of being alone, of losing another loved one. He wrestled with previous pain of leaving the air temple and Gyatso's subsequent death. That was one death he couldn't prevent. He couldn't prevent the distruction of his temple and his people. He couldn't take that action back. But he could try to save Katara. He saw a vision of her in peril and he had to act.

So I understand Aang's choice from that perspective.

But is he ready for a relationship, no. But then again I don't think any of them really are.

[clearsunrise]

Do you really have to be responsible or mature to be in love with someone?

I don't think any of the characters are really ready for a relationship yet, but it's more because I think they have continue growing and find out who they are first. If you don't know yourself, then you can't really show your true self to someone, and that person can't really love you if they don't really know who you are. I think aang made the human choice to go and help katara, so I don't really blame him for it. I think he made the wrong choice in a way, but as they say, "Hindsight's 20/20".

And I agree with amira. He's afraid of being alone. All the characters seem to have that fear in some way or another.

[lunauc]

Wow... I think we have complete agreement between everyone here. Aang is mature for his age, but still has a ways to go. At least that seems to be the consensus we're on. There is no age limit for being in love, but that does not mean you are ready to really be in a relationship. And even people who are expected to act selflessly and with great wisdom will be selfish and thoughtless at crucial and traumatic moments.

Yes?

[lunar-tsunami]

Aang has definitely started out immature, but the journey has given him a great deal of maturity. And what has done that? All the mistakes he keeps making. I think seeing the results of his hasty or selfish actions has sobered him up far more than any lecture. And these recent mistakes are some extremely hard lessons to learn. His reluctance to let go of Katara led him to abandon his chakra sessions prematurely, leaving a safe learning environment for a dangerous one. That led him to a battle where he acted hastily and a bit mindlessly in his attempts to keep Katara safe. And his last-ditch attempt to clear the chakra wasn't done in a way that protected her....it ended up endangering the entire Avatar cycle and hope for the world.

But such a powerful failure will help him realize what his true path should be, and remind him in a way that he will never forget. Doing things properly (letting go and learning the elements correctly) is what will really save the world and keep Katara safe. He needs these failures to grow into the person who can achieve these goals.

As a side note, I wonder if Aang really trusted in Katara's abilities...maybe he was being a bit over-protective. And maybe Katara is still learning the extent of her power. When the going got rough, she went from being surrounded by the Dai Li to washing out the entire army in one blow. She's definitely capable of holding her own. Aang should have been a bit more careful and evasive and less smashy-smashy with protective rage. She was fine and his opponents were too smart and skilled for thoughtless attacks. More lessons...

[lunar-tsunami]

Oh, and relationship-wise...I agree that Aang (and Katara too) are a little young. I could definitely see their strong bond turning into a deep romance later in life (Aunt Wu knows) but now? Love could be admitted but nothing too heavy until later. I think this will certainly bring them closer, and confessions from Aang might be something Katara can accept more readily now after suffering the pain of him nearly dying. (Nearly losing someone always makes you feel the love for them more acutely) still, I see love for each other but not really dating.

I see no problem with a later-relationship though, even marriage. Might even be probable, once they are grown-up. Thanks to Kuruk, we know avatars can get married. 'Course, who knows what kind of bending their kids would do...we haven't seen multi-ethnic/cultural/spiritual kids yet. (I'm multi-racial, so I'm especially curious)