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Post by Sokkaroksya on Feb 13, 2007 12:26:07 GMT -5
Wow, this is definitely an interesting topic...oaky, I'll give it a whirl...
First off, Azula as she is now is incapable of putting anything ahead of herself, and thus is clearly unable to be ina relationship beyond one created for manipulative or ulterior purposes. So that's out of the question.
However, I don't think Azula is totally evil, either. Human nature being what it is, no one is truly "black" or "flat" unless they have a mental condition, that's just the way people are. Everyone, no matter how evil on the outside, has some sort of basic support gene hard-wired into us that tells us to care for those around us; it comes from our ancient instincts as social animals to protect those in our group as a way of protecting ourselves. Even notoriously evil people, like Stalin or Hitler, had this same instinct (although Hitler was supposedly clinically insane, so perhaps he's a bad example).
In regards to Azula, she was probably born with the same potential to be good or evil as anyone. However, the fact that she was a prodigal bender meant that Ozai took more of a liking to her, and more attention means that more of his personality would rub off on her.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Feb 13, 2007 17:12:04 GMT -5
I feel the misunderstood villain who slowly sees the light has been done with Zuko. Azula's just there to fill the role of immediate villain left by Zhao.
I think there's two kinds of Azula fans: people who like her because she IS completely evil and devious, and people who like her because they dream about what she MIGHT be. I feel if she was meant for redemption, we'd see at least one sign by now.
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Post by Werewolf Cookie on Feb 14, 2007 3:21:43 GMT -5
I think that by describing "evil villain" and "understandable villain" as roles the characters were created to fill, you're underestimating the creators. The characters we have so far don't fit their roles perfectly: Sokka's the comic relief, and yet he has tragic romances and comes up with brilliant plans. Katara was at first the token girl and the love interest, and she's exceeded that role by a long shot. Ty Lee and Mai are the ebol henchmen, and apparently they'll be getting a greatly increased role in the next season. Zuko is the anti-hero heading towards redemption, and he's just gone and taken a huge step backwards, away from assumed redemption. The characters we have so far aren't stereotypes, and I don't see why Azula should be either. Besides, considering she was introduced at the end of the first season and will still feature in the third, she has a much bigger role than Zhao and isn't just his younger female replacement.
Depending on who you talk to, you can't be born a sociopath, you become one through nurture, so if Azula IS a sociopath (and it seems possible at this point) then Ozai is probably to blame. If she came out of her mother's womb the way she is, that makes her a psychopath. And just because Ursa seems like a lovely sweet woman doesn't mean that she had absolutely no influence on Little Azula, even if she didn't mean to. I mean, what if a young Azula realised that, because of their ages and gender roles, Zuko would probably become Fire Lord, or some other powerful position, and she would probably end up just like her mother, in a powerless position and an unhappy marriage? That would inspire hatred of Zuko, a desire to be less like her mother and more like her father, a desire to prove her worth by becoming good at Firebending. I'm not saying that's what happened, but just because Azula turned out a lot like Ozai doesn't mean that Ursa had no influence on her at all.
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Post by LightBender on Feb 14, 2007 7:31:12 GMT -5
I think that maybe Azula could end up with someone. It is possible, just not as likely as an Aang pairing or something of that sort. She does possess some emotions. People do change. If she met the right person, it might happen. So far, we haven't actually seen anything to support this, but maybe Season 3.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Feb 14, 2007 16:15:59 GMT -5
Zhao was pretty much a stereotype. I think Azula's there to fill his role: an active villain. Because right now, Ozai's just chilling in the FN.
Azula wouldn't be who she is if she just changed and we suddenly felt sorry for her. Imagine if Zhao was pumped full of backstory, until we felt sorry for him? First of all, it would soak up too much airtime to ever get us to feel sorry for Zhao, and the same goes for Azula. Then what? If Zhao was sympathetic, would he have tried to destroy the moon spirit? If he did, and he died the same way, all of the character development would have been shot, and we wouldn't even have had that "Yeah, take that!" feeling when he died. We'd be confused.
Same for Azula. She does all this evil stuff in the second season like trying to shoot lightning (kill) Zuko in The Avatar State, manipulating Mai and Ty Lee into following her, rufusing to allow the trade between Mai's brother and Bumi, shooting Iroh in the CHEST with FIRE when he wasn't even looking...that right there...who could she be redeemed? She's tried to KILL Zuko and Iroh.
So if they suddenly do a 180 and spend all kinds of airtime trying to make her seem sympathetic, where would the go with it? Turn her good? How would that work? They couldn't just make us feel sorry for her and keep her as the same, awesome villain she already is. She would lose all the qualities that make her interesting, and would just be a female Zuko without the whole banishment and scar thing.
They could provide a little backstory so we know "So that's why she's evil," so when she's killed or imprisoned for life in the end we look on her with pity. But if they completely changed her character, it would be way to sudden and abrupt. It would be like completely different people started writing the show for the third season. It would be like some fanfic author won a contest and is allowed to write the script.
We don't need another seemingly villainous character with a dark past than makes us feel sorry for them. We already have Jet and Zuko. We need a villain. We need someone who's going to be directly hunting the gAang in the next season, because I doubt Ozai's going to be out hunting in his robe and crown. So why make us feel sorry for her? They seem to have a good formula with her, by making us look at her and think, "Oh no, you better run Aang!"
That's the kind of villain we need. One who is a challenge, one who is genuinly scarly, and one who is a serious threat. Azula just wouldn't cut it if they just completely changed her personality and character. That's what they'd have to do: change who she is completely.
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Post by Werewolf Cookie on Feb 14, 2007 23:01:45 GMT -5
There's a difference between sympathy and empathy, and there's a difference between redeemable and understandable. I don't think Azula, in the space of 20 episodes, could (or should) become a sympathetic, redeemable character. But you can understand and feel for a character that you don't necessarily like. Besides, I could come up with a conceivable situation in which Azula could gain redemption in the space of 20 episodes without doing a personality 180. My friend, who's a big Azula fan, doesn't want Azula to remain a villain because that probably means she's going to die. So she suggested that, if Ty Lee, Mai and Zuko join the Gaang, maybe Azula will too, pretending to have changed and planning to overthrow her father and then turn on the Gaang and take control of the Fire Nation and the rest of the world. After spending time with the Gaang, however, she starts finding it more and more difficult to hate them. I mean, obviously this won't happen on the show, but Azula could become understandable or even redeemable quite easily, and I have faith that the creators could make it realistic and true to her character.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Feb 14, 2007 23:35:33 GMT -5
Yet what would be the ultimate outcome? Would Azula stop being as great a villain as she is? If she finds it harder to be her crazy self, she would lose that killer insticnt most of us adore. If the creators wanted to devote hours to making Azula seem like a decent human being, why would they? Just so we go "Oh that's why she's so evil"? It would be a waste of time if they added development and had her stay as the same cool villain she is, and it would be deja vu if she suddenly became redeemable.
Remember, they've got limited time. They won't spend extra hours on Azula unless her personality change drastically alters the plot. As it is, she tried to kill Iroh, she tried to kill Zuko (despite her father's order to bring them both alive) and she tried to kill Aang, whom I'm sure is still wanted alive as well. She is a killer. She was ordered to keep them alive, but she killed Aang with a big fat smile on her face. That's what makes her such a scary villain--she takes pleasure in causing chaos. It's the only thing she DOES seem to enjoy.
So it would require several episodes devoted entirely to her in order to alter that perspective, and then the question still stands, What's the point? It's not worth the time if it's simply for a little bit of understanding while they keep her as the villain. They wouldn't bother, they'd spend time on more important things, and leave her simply as a villain like Zhao. Or if they tried to redeem her...that would take all season. It would take too much time away from the main plot, it would be OOC, it would be soemthing we've already seen done twice, and I see no point.
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Post by Werewolf Cookie on Feb 15, 2007 4:08:52 GMT -5
One of ATLA's strong points is character development. Characters who don't necessarily NEED character development get it anyway, and it makes them all the more wonderful. I don't mind Azula being evil, but I don't think that means she has to be flat and one-sided, like a Disney villain. Azula has backstory, she has motives, she has feelings. And since she's considered a main character (Zhao was a major secondary character by the way, like Mai, Ty Lee, Suki and Jet) she deserves to have those things explored. Being a supposed sadist and sociopath isn't enough. Zuko gets a flashback episode devoted entirely to him; why shouldn't Azula get a few measly flashbacks, or a bit of motive? Also, don't think that OOC is always a bad thing; sometimes it can add a lot to a character. Consider Katara in The Waterbending Scroll, when she was jealous of Aang's progress; Aang in The Desert, when he flew into a rage; Zuko in ToBSS, when he was shy and awkward around Jin; Toph in ToBSS, when she was hurt by the girls' comments and felt bad about her looks; Mai in Return to Omashu, when she smiled at the mention of Zuko. If Azula were to show a rare moment of compassion, it would add to her character and emphasise her usually nasty personality even more. As for her in a relationship, as long as her partner puts up with being dominated and tormented it would work. But she'd probably end up getting poisioned or knifed in bed when the other person has had enough. Yes, see, they're called masochists, and they'd work quite nicely in a relationship with Azula. They wouldn't even have to resort to poison and knives.
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gambitia
Fiery Ozai
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Post by gambitia on Feb 15, 2007 19:00:48 GMT -5
Yet what would be the ultimate outcome? Would Azula stop being as great a villain as she is? If she finds it harder to be her crazy self, she would lose that killer insticnt most of us adore. If the creators wanted to devote hours to making Azula seem like a decent human being, why would they? Just so we go "Oh that's why she's so evil"? It would be a waste of time if they added development and had her stay as the same cool villain she is, and it would be deja vu if she suddenly became redeemable. Agreed. Azula has never, ever shown any signs of being a redeemable character. That is the main difference between her and characters like Zuko and Jet. Zuko and Jet both had something the audience--and the other characters in the show--could empathize with. Zuko is adorkably cute when he's not being an angry jerk, and Jet has his charisma and talent for speaking. You'll notice that Jet and Azula have the same gifts--they both are charismatic, they're both highly driven, and they both have silver tongues. But Jet is a hero. Azula is not, nor will she become one (Unless I'm reading everything completely wrong). The way the character is potrayed is incredibly important, and Azula has never been portrayed as anything but evil, while Jet, even though he's similar character-wise, is an anti-hero who managed to completely redeem himself before his death even though I refuse to believe he's dead. Everything, from her first appearance onward, has indicated that Azula is irrevocably evil. The first words we heard from her mouth were threats against her family and her crew. The first story she was in had her conning her brother. The next had her blackmailing what appeared to be one of her best friends. The list goes on. In an entire season, Azula has shown no redeemable points. In contrast, Zuko showed little signs as early as "The Avatar Returns," and was portrayed as a tragic villain by the 13th episode ("The Blue Spirit").
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Feb 15, 2007 19:50:39 GMT -5
That's right. It would be too sudden to start changing her character now. She has yet to show a a single decent quality that would make anyone consider her a passable human being. She's attempted to murder three people already, two in her own family when she had explicit orders to bring them alive.
How many times does mommy have to ignore you to make you want to kill your own brother? I'll say again, there's two kinds of Azula fans. People who like her for who she is (completely evil), and people who like what she MIGHT be. There's no proof or evidence that she's anything close to becoming a compassionate individual. There's MOUNTAINS of evidence pointing to the contrary. If you spend all your time dreaming about what Azula MIGHT be, you'll forget who she really is.
Also, Azula isn't really a main character. The main characters are Aang, Sokka, Katara, Toph, Zuko and Iroh. Then there are side characters and villains. Azula's a villain, just like Zhao was. Zhao had no backstory or character development other than showing how he's a powerhungry man with little self-control. If Azula gets backstory, it'll probably be to make us think she's even more twisted. Every time we've seen her she's only served a single purpose: to be the villain. In the first season, we had episodes of Zuko doing his own thing now and then, showing that he has some good qualities. But never Azula. ALL that she does now is be the villain.
We've already seen a flashback of her when she was like 7 or 8. She was already evil then! How far back do you have to go? Was Ozai slapping her around when she was 4? Just punching the baby in the face for the heck of it? He probably took no notice of her until she started duplicating his personality, but then all that does is explain a little why she's evil. It doesn't take any steps toward positive advancement.
I've read books with some amazing character development for the people who needed it, but handles the villains the way villains are supposed to be handled. Most villains get a little explaination of how they got to be like they are, such as "He was jealous of the goodguy, so he became determined to kill him," and those moments make us go, "cray-zeee," but let us understand their motives. By doing this, we know the "why" without jeapordizing our satisfaction of seeing the hero beat them.
If you mishandle your villains, develope them all into situations of pity and remorse to the point that we can't even look at them seriously any more, we just feel confused when they're defeated. You can't argue that Azula's role right now is anything but that of the villain, because ALL she has done is be...villainous. As a villain, her story has to be handled in a certain way. We've seen how intimitating she is, how much of a threat she is, and the effect would be lost in the future if we saw too much tragedy in flashbacks of her life to make us expect different.
Think of it like this; if Zuko is really the major villain of the show, never to redeem himself, all of the backstory would seem a waste. We'd be like, "WTF? What about all of the Zuko Alone and metamorphesis stuff?"
Same goes with Azula. If they made us sympathize with her, and kept her as evil as she is, it would dsirupt the story telling. It would confuse us, make us feel decieved, and be bad writing.
If they made her sympathetic and redeemable, it would be a Zuko clone. It would be a pointless copy of a character WE ALREADY HAVE. It would be like showing a clone of Sokka with a different name and gender. Silly stuff.
If they kept her evil but had backstory to explain it to the point where we pity her, we would no longer respect her. Like Gollum fromt The Lord of the Rings, we would go "What a sad, twisted creature." and all of her awesomeness would die.
You're still dreaming about what she MIGHT be without looking at proper storytelling methods. There's a thing called "character archetypes," which make up the character roles in all stories. Usual character archetypes are
--Noble hero: a hero who always does what is good, what is right, and follows the rules. A real role model to take home to your mother. (Aang)
--Outcast hero: a person who ultimately does what is right, but by abstract means. He plays by his own rules, oftentimes looking like a bad@$$ (Zuko will likely fit this role eventually)
--Mentor: The eldery teaching figure who guides the heroes on their journey. (Iroh)
--Shadow figure: May or may not be a villain, but someone who is the complete opposite of the hero and holds misguided beliefs (Jet, Long Feng)
--Antagonist: the villain. Present in the story to oppose the hero at all costs. (Zhao, Azula, Ozai)
You can't place Azula in any other category but villain as she stands now. You might hope and dream of what she could become, but she is indeed a villain.
By using these archetypes, we're able to determine and understand and be familiar with their roles. The hero saves the day, the villain looses, the mentor often dies to pass on his knowledge. If you start mixing things up, throwing characters around, it destroys the continuity of the story you're trying to tell.
Zuko started as a shadow figure, being the opposite of Aang, and he ultimatly still is because he can't be called a hero now. But we've seen numerous signs of his good side, seen proof that he isn't a bad person at heart, he just has misguided views. With this proof, we can be fairly certain to assume he will progress to the role of an outcast hero.
Yet not so with Azula. There is not one sign that she might be anything other than a villain, and as far as the TV show goes, (ignoring what some incredible fanfic writer might be able to pull off), she's past the point of being redeemed unless they throw us a "luke I am your father" fastball. Even then, her fate is still sealed.
The level of character development you're seeking isn't realistic for Azula's character archetype.
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Post by Werewolf Cookie on Feb 16, 2007 4:42:32 GMT -5
I'm not sure I agree that characters should fit into archetypes, since I think they're kinda limiting, and not really necessary. Neverless, I will agree with you that Azula is a villain (she's still a main character though, an antagonist is just as much a main character as a protagonist). I don't ask for Azula's life story to be shown; this isn't Naruto. I don't ask for Azula to become sympathetic, redeemable and basically Zuko Jr. But, really, one of the show's strong points is characterization, and Azula is a flat character at the moment, a lot like a Disney villain. I can think of plenty of books in which the villain was well-developed, and still a pwnsome villain. There's a fine line between "awesomely evil" and "caricature" and it'd be nice to see Azula step away from that line a little.
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Post by Sokkaroksya on Feb 16, 2007 16:46:11 GMT -5
I agree with Werewolf Cookie, in that archetypes aren't as applicable here as they are in other stories. The main characters have already shown themselves capable of development beyond the archtypal role they originally held. To keep Azula as a flat character would be to ignore the show's own precedent, and besides, like others have said, developing a character in no way makes it necessary to change the way they operate, or even change our perception of them.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Feb 16, 2007 17:38:21 GMT -5
Well now you've changed gears. If you want to develop her without changing her personality on a drastic scale, that leaves no room for anything that could be considered a serious, compassionate relationship.
Why would anyone want Azula to be sympathetic? It would entirely ruin her character. So far she's defined as this psycopathic perfectionist, and if they had us feeling sorry for her, she couldn't be as great a villain as she is now.
If she does become redeemable, she would indeed be Zuko jr. As I said earlier...we don't need a copy of a character we've already had.
It's not going to happen in the show. It's taken 2 seasons and Zuko still hasn't redeemed himself, how is someone as demented as Azula going to do it? Keep in mind I'm talking entirely about canon stuff here, what WILL happen in the show, not what we hope might happen to the characters years after the show ends.
It's way more than likely Azula won't survive the end of the third season. She's been built up too much as an evil character to be redeemed. Certainly for other characters they ahve more fexible options, but not Azula. Why not Azula? For an entire season she hasn't done ANYTHING but be evil. There are NO signs of goodness, and absolutely no traces of ever having been anything different.
So keeping on topic: The last two posts above me seem to be saying that development is possible without changing the character or how they operate. To that I say "Yeah...but then Azula still isn't likely to wind up in a relationship."
So it comes to this: Either Azula changes or she doesn't. I doubt anyone can argue with a straight face that right now, as she is, Azula is anything close to being capable of being in a loving relationship.
So unless she changes, not gonna happen. And concerning things in the sense of being canon and happening on the show, the level of character development required to make her compassionate enough to have a relationship isn't possible or probably or practical in one season, when she's presented as the major villain.
She's tried to kill Aang, Zuko, and Iroh, all without the slightest trace of regret on her face. Each time she shot them, she was SMILING. It would take tons of work and development to look over that, and it just isn't going to happen on the show.
She serves one purpse now: to be the antagonist. Even Zuko had more going on for him in season one than she did, and even he showed decent human qualities. She can't just suddenly change and redeem herself.
So what do you want? Her to have more backstory but be the same character? It would waste time they don't have on the show with no ultimate outcome, and still wouldn't be a step closer to accomplishing the original question of whether or not she can be in a relationship.
Redeem her? She'd be a Zuko clone. Worthless, pointless, cheap. It would take too long, too much screentime, and would result in the show copying itself for no reason.
Make her sympathetic? Then she'd loose the only good qualities she has as a character. We wouldn't be intimidated by her, and her impact as a villain would be lost. They would have to kill her off shortly there-after, just like they did to Darth Vader.
As for character archetpes, those aren't some set rules decided by the Storytelling Committee of Rules and Humbuggery that the creators are being rebels by ignoring. The archetypes were figures out by people studying these types of stories, and they recognized that certain types of characters tend to show up more than once. Like the idea of the Mentor, that's a good idea, one we're familiar with, and one that helps the story, so that's why it's used.
And you HAVE to have a hero and HAVE to have a villain. If they stray too far from what defines a hero and what defines a villain, we become confused, won't be able to support one and scorn another, and ultimately lose interest. Sure, Aang can make mistakes and be un-heroic at times, but on the whole he is a hero. As for Azula, she's just like Zhao. She hurts people because she finds it fun, she's vicious, malicious, vile, twisted, cunning, and all around devious. Why is she like this? So we look at her as an audience and go "BOO." It's a character we love to hate. If they pumped so much explaination into her as to make us feel sorry for her...we wouldn't know hwo to feel. She wouldn't be the same villain, and I think she's a very good villain.
Realistically, she won't have this revolutionary flashback like Zuko did that explains everything. We already saw her when she was like 7 years old, and Ozai liked her. She wasn't mistreated by Ozai. I doubt even he is capable of hurting a child under 5. And Ursa? She was a good woman. She wouldn't do anything to seriously damage her daughter. So what could POSSIBLY explain Azula's actions so that we would understand and sympathize with her motives? There's nothing that could excuse the things she's done.
And in terms of the show, we won't get an Azula centric episode. This isn't LOST, where each character gets a flashback episode dedicated to them. We don't have time for that. Azula isn't a primary character. It would be like giving Zhao a flashback episode.
The most we'll ever get on the show is maybe a little tiny flash of something from her past, like Jet did, but we've already seen her past from Zuko's flashbacks. And guess what? She was HAPPY!
So some tragic event from Azula's past explaining everything is pretty much out of the question. As for future events? As I said earlier, we don't have time for the level of development that could change her.
You might think the creators are capable of heroicly thinking outside the box and striving for more, but there's a reason for these character archetypes. That reason? So we as an audience don't get confused and lose the enjoyment fo watching the show. If they redeemed Azula, it would be confusing, and would leave way too many loose ends. She's done too many evil things; she's destined to go down. Just like Jet did, and he's a saint compared to her.
It won't happen on the show.
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