femaleairbender
Blue Spirit
Just a fool to believe I have anything she needs...She's like the wind...
Posts: 2,165
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Cliches
Jan 29, 2007 20:49:41 GMT -5
Post by femaleairbender on Jan 29, 2007 20:49:41 GMT -5
I honestly have no idea where to put this thread. If it's in the wrong section, please move it. Or if this thread is stupid, feel free to trash it.
Okay, here goes. I'm sure everyone's heard of cliches and I'm sure we all hate them. But wouldn't you say that there's a right and wrong way to use them?
As the old saying says, "Nothing is original." How true is that! Every since his great Tolkienness (all hail Tolkien! *laughs*) wrote The Lord of the Rings, fantasy books without cliches are hard to come by. And that's only an example.
Let's get back to my earlier question. Is there a right and wrong way to use cliches? I think so. A cliche-filled book can be incredible or make me think it's the worst book in existence, depending on how good the book is. What does everyone else think?
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Atmos
Casual Zuko
Tame the Flame
Posts: 946
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Cliches
Jan 29, 2007 21:26:08 GMT -5
Post by Atmos on Jan 29, 2007 21:26:08 GMT -5
I think that in order for something to be somewhat interesting, there's got to be at least one twist from the cliche. Becausethe story starts out to be boringly predicitable, then the story would have ended before it began.
That's why I think it's important to lean away from cliche at the beginning and end of the stories, simply because its usually the beginning and the end of a story that's the most memorable. In the middle, I think you can be much more lenient with cliches in the middle of the story (so long as the story, setting, and characters are vivid and dynamic).
But then again, some people actually may actually like cliches. I mean...look at all the shipper fanfics that make decent success in the fandom. (And I mean that positively)
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Kali Gargoyle
Warrior Sokka
Yes, I know OC shipping is lame. XD
Posts: 730
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Cliches
Jan 29, 2007 21:48:45 GMT -5
Post by Kali Gargoyle on Jan 29, 2007 21:48:45 GMT -5
The word cliche usually has such negative connotation attached to it, understandably. They are standard storylines and stereotype characters. However, the reason they have become cliches is because they were seen as such good ideas in the first place that they were used by others to the point where they were so overused they became boring.
Now, that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be used at all. Good vs. Evil. World Domination. Elemental Forces. Unrequited Love. Character Archetypes. All can be considered cliche, all are found in Avatar, a show very unique and, as a whole, far from cliche.
It’s true that there are no original ideas, but there are always new variations and twists to those old, overused ideas. Mixing cliches, or even turning them on their heads and doing the opposite, can spice up a story. In fact, many people enjoy certain “cliches”, it can be a comfort zone of sorts, as long as the writing is good. Those ideas are time tested and still remain, you just have to breath new, unique life into them.
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Atmos
Casual Zuko
Tame the Flame
Posts: 946
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Cliches
Jan 30, 2007 13:42:19 GMT -5
Post by Atmos on Jan 30, 2007 13:42:19 GMT -5
The word cliche usually has such negative connotation attached to it, understandably. They are standard storylines and stereotype characters. However, the reason they have become cliches is because they were seen as such good ideas in the first place that they were used by others to the point where they were so overused they became boring. Now, that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be used at all. Good vs. Evil. World Domination. Elemental Forces. Unrequited Love. Character Archetypes. All can be considered cliche, all are found in Avatar, a show very unique and, as a whole, far from cliche. It’s true that there are no original ideas, but there are always new variations and twists to those old, overused ideas. Mixing cliches, or even turning them on their heads and doing the opposite, can spice up a story. In fact, many people enjoy certain “cliches”, it can be a comfort zone of sorts, as long as the writing is good. Those ideas are time tested and still remain, you just have to breath new, unique life into them. I like how you said it *karmalizes*
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femaleairbender
Blue Spirit
Just a fool to believe I have anything she needs...She's like the wind...
Posts: 2,165
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Cliches
Jan 31, 2007 21:10:26 GMT -5
Post by femaleairbender on Jan 31, 2007 21:10:26 GMT -5
The word cliche usually has such negative connotation attached to it, understandably. They are standard storylines and stereotype characters. However, the reason they have become cliches is because they were seen as such good ideas in the first place that they were used by others to the point where they were so overused they became boring. Now, that doesn’t mean that they shouldn’t be used at all. Good vs. Evil. World Domination. Elemental Forces. Unrequited Love. Character Archetypes. All can be considered cliche, all are found in Avatar, a show very unique and, as a whole, far from cliche. It’s true that there are no original ideas, but there are always new variations and twists to those old, overused ideas. Mixing cliches, or even turning them on their heads and doing the opposite, can spice up a story. In fact, many people enjoy certain “cliches”, it can be a comfort zone of sorts, as long as the writing is good. Those ideas are time tested and still remain, you just have to breath new, unique life into them. I like how you said it *karmalizes* I liked that, too. You get karma from me.
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Kali Gargoyle
Warrior Sokka
Yes, I know OC shipping is lame. XD
Posts: 730
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Cliches
Jan 31, 2007 22:20:57 GMT -5
Post by Kali Gargoyle on Jan 31, 2007 22:20:57 GMT -5
Ah, you’re making me blush. I’ve been reading a lot of books on writing (specifically for comic books), so it was all pretty fresh in my mind.
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femaleairbender
Blue Spirit
Just a fool to believe I have anything she needs...She's like the wind...
Posts: 2,165
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Cliches
Feb 1, 2007 17:24:49 GMT -5
Post by femaleairbender on Feb 1, 2007 17:24:49 GMT -5
Ah, you’re making me blush. I’ve been reading a lot of books on writing (specifically for comic books), so it was all pretty fresh in my mind. Are you surrounded by books when you're in your house? Because in my house, we have books in almost every room. You could say I've grown up with books. But we're getting off topic. Ahem. Cliches. Is there any way to make cliches a postitive thing? Maybe so. In some cases, you do need cliches because if you're writing a certain situation, it's possible that the only way for it to make sense is to be cliche. You can also have a twist within cliches, as well. As my English teacher says, "Everything's been done before, but not everything's been done your way."
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Kali Gargoyle
Warrior Sokka
Yes, I know OC shipping is lame. XD
Posts: 730
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Cliches
Feb 1, 2007 18:05:23 GMT -5
Post by Kali Gargoyle on Feb 1, 2007 18:05:23 GMT -5
Are you surrounded by books when you're in your house? Because in my house, we have books in almost every room. You could say I've grown up with books. Actually, I end up at Barnes and Noble for about three hours three days a week (friend has a long lunch “hour”, I have no life.) I’ve been reading everything on the subject I can find (I do buy them occasionally.) I’ve caught up on Deathnote, too! *cough* Anyway, cliche. “Everything's been done before, but not everything's been done your way.” I love that, that’s so perfect. There’s also the fact that cliches can be lost in a larger, more original story. “Girl has to choose between two boys” is a very cliche idea that’s been done over and over. Think of the stories that include such a plot. If the stories are well written and developed the cliche becomes concealed in the more original plot. “Simple girl has to choose between bad but attentive boy or good but distant boy” becomes less cliche. Set it in a fantasy world, toss in a vague prophesy about her choice, an unrelated rivalry between the boys, and maybe a close girlfriend pining over her obviously straight friend and that cliche becomes nearly invisible. *blinks* No one take that! *writes it down* But really, each aspect of that, on its own, could be considered cliche. But most people will only consider the story “cliche”, with all the negative meaning, if it’s done badly.
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Atmos
Casual Zuko
Tame the Flame
Posts: 946
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Cliches
Feb 1, 2007 20:05:03 GMT -5
Post by Atmos on Feb 1, 2007 20:05:03 GMT -5
lol@KG's spontaneous idea. Did someone say Barnes&Nobles?!!! The bookstore is the only reason why I go to the mall on a regular occasion!!! ;D*cough* Border's better*cough ;D ;D For writers may I suggest 100 Ways to Improve Your Writing by Gary Provost Also as part as the volume of Elements of Fiction Writing: Characters and Viewpoints by Orson Scott Card Conflict, Action, & Suspense by William Noble Beginnings, Middles, & Ends by Nancy Kress Oh and also here's a list titled: Welcome to ClichevilleBanish these too-familiar characters from your fiction: - The fire-breathing religous leader determined to squelch new ideas. - The evil corporate cheif who cares nothing for the environment/employee's well-being/public's health/etc. - the scientist who can never see the danger his project poses - The brave but mysterious adventurer who turns out to be a long lost noble - The misunderstood visitor who needs help to return home - The bloodthirsty military leader for whom the ends jusitfy the means - the especially stupid authority figure who will not listen to reason and botchevery decision, thereby causing all the problems of the story - the thoughtless "good" king/leader who listens to stupid/evil authority figures - the evil overlord who is pure evil - the has-a-good-heart-and-knows-what's-right-but-is-sadly-misunderstood younger sibling. - anyone astoundingly beautiful The list is from The Complete Handbook of Novel Writing edited by Meg Jeder, Jack Heffron, and editors of Writer's Digest. thoughts on the list?
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Cliches
Feb 1, 2007 20:09:01 GMT -5
Post by avatarspirit on Feb 1, 2007 20:09:01 GMT -5
Darn, I was about to use the "thoughtless "good" king/ who listens to evil authority figures" LOL.
Perhaps you could add "Don't use the helpless damsel-in-distress"
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Atmos
Casual Zuko
Tame the Flame
Posts: 946
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Cliches
Feb 1, 2007 20:11:02 GMT -5
Post by Atmos on Feb 1, 2007 20:11:02 GMT -5
Oh, you just reminded me of cliche list from Elfwood.
(And other detail I forgot, the list sort a pertained to fantasy/scifi) as will the one from Elfwood.
EDIT:
Here's the list from elfwood.com
Cliches: What NOT to do
- The classic hero (brave, handsome, and has a tendency to save kitties from trees. Bonus if he’s good with swords and used to be a farm boy.)
- The classic damsel-in-distress (beautiful and completely useless. Has no idea how to do anything for herself. Submits woefully to her downtrodden position.)
- The princess (beautiful, docile or snobby, and likes elegant gowns. Bonus if she has blonde hair.)
- The prince (snobby, handsome, brave, or sweet - no matter what guise you put him in he’s still a prince)
- The loner (rugged, silent, and tortured by his past… we’ve read him a million times.)
- The amnesiac (especially if she’s royalty, a powerful mage, or fulfils a prophecy)
- The orphan (especially if he’s royalty or the one to fulfil a prophesy)
- Royalty (We’re just tired of royalty, okay?)
- The Woe-is-me (“mummy just died and daddy wants me to be just like him but I just can’t because I’m afraid and what will I do and I think I’m gonna cry…”)
- The seductress (“you are rugged and handsome and even though you have a wife at home I will tempt you with my sex appeal because I am beautiful and like to wear leather thongs.”)
- The Fallen Angel (“I’ve been cast from Heaven, my wings are broken and I will despair.”)
- No emotion (“Blink. Blink.” Volkyns and Elves are particularly good examples)
- Villain’s sidekick (he falls for the hero and betrays the villain. Or he’s an idiot who always screws things up but is forgiven every time.)
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Cliches
Feb 1, 2007 20:20:36 GMT -5
Post by avatarspirit on Feb 1, 2007 20:20:36 GMT -5
That would be 5 more characters to cut out of my story................. Can you combine cliches? would that help?
Edit: I just re-read all the posts, nevermind.
You may also want to add "Love at first sight" That the biggest cliche I've ever read
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Atmos
Casual Zuko
Tame the Flame
Posts: 946
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Cliches
Feb 1, 2007 20:30:23 GMT -5
Post by Atmos on Feb 1, 2007 20:30:23 GMT -5
lol...If you have characters that fit the cliche, you don't have to cut them out. As KG explained you can mix up some cliche characters with an original plot. And in the story, don't be afraid for the characters to actually experience a change...
Combing cliches is definitely worth a try. Be careful though not to make it back fire. Example: (from picking from the list) The classical, useless, royal damsel who woes for her amnesia and doesn't know she is suppose to fullfil the prophecy with the help of the classic swordskill hero who saves kittens.
But really ask yourself if the characters really interest you as the writer; it's up to you. Do you have fun writing them? You can always ask for feedback on the Mary/Gary Stu thread if you feel concerned.
But also check out KG's thread for advice for OCs with you want.
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Cliches
Feb 1, 2007 20:34:50 GMT -5
Post by avatarspirit on Feb 1, 2007 20:34:50 GMT -5
It's actually an original story. I am horrible at fanfics, LOL.
A horrible cliche would also be "Villian that wants simply to take over the world for no apperent reason, other than to be evil"
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Kali Gargoyle
Warrior Sokka
Yes, I know OC shipping is lame. XD
Posts: 730
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Cliches
Feb 1, 2007 20:52:27 GMT -5
Post by Kali Gargoyle on Feb 1, 2007 20:52:27 GMT -5
- The fire-breathing religious leader determined to squelch new ideas. Yeah, I hate those guys, though it would be really funny if once the oppressed masses overthrew him they found out he was right and they had actually destroyed the only hope for their world.
- The evil corporate chief who cares nothing for the environment/employee's well-being/public's health/etc. Who is actually an alien spy sent to subtly alter Earth’s environment to be suitable to his species.
- The scientist who can never see the danger his project poses. The ones who know their project is dangerous and doesn’t care/wants it to be dangerous are much cooler.
- The brave but mysterious adventurer who turns out to be a long lost noble. Too bad he was from the noble family who had declared and won the violent war over the land and is now ruling with an iron fist.
- The misunderstood visitor who needs help to return home. Literally, since she’s speaking a dead language because she’s from three thousand years in the past.
- The bloodthirsty military leader for whom the ends justify the means. Including his own death, which, he realized, will cause even the lowliest peasant to rise up in arms in the name of their martyr.
- The especially stupid authority figure who will not listen to reason and botch every decision, thereby causing all the problems of the story. Of course, because after living their whole life with modern technology and violent criminals, they should totally be able to accept that dark wizards are controlling world leaders.
- The thoughtless “good” king/leader who listens to stupid/evil authority figures. Seriously, what kind of idiots use plotlines like that! ;D
- The evil overlord who is pure evil. Pure evil. Nothing remotely human, not even a corporeal body, just a big floating cloud of dark energy.
- The has-a-good-heart-and-knows-what's-right-but-is-sadly-misunderstood younger sibling. Listen to his psychic visions!
- Anyone astoundingly beautiful. But then we wouldn’t get any scenes of the main characters just standing there dumbfounded as the divine beauty slowly and divinely starts across the street towards them... and gets hit by a semi.
I love this game! XD
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