|
Post by Fire Lord Azula on Mar 28, 2007 12:46:27 GMT -5
I'm not going to touch the 'shipping aspect, but I suppose it depends on your outlook: what constitutes a powerful bender to you? Zuko has improved throughout the series; it's indisputable. His latest attacks are beyond anything we've seen from him in the past. He doesn't need to bend lightning in order to be considered powerful, in my opinion. Though he remains in his sister's shadow, the versatility of his attacks sets him apart and makes him a formidible opponent, as Aang found out in The Crossroads Of Destiny. He was holding his own for a time. I think Zuko's a powerful bender, but I'm not a big Zutara fan. Something I find funny in CoD: Katara=Zuko Aang=Azula Katara>Azula Zuko>Aang Just who are the prodigies?... Aang and Azula weren't equals in that fight. When they faced each other head-on, Azula blasted him into a wall, where he lay for several minutes before regaining his composure. That's hardly equal. He never touched her. Interesting that the fight in The Crossroads Of Destiny be brought up in this context, though. According to the finalé... Katara defeated Azula, who defeated Aang, who defeated Zuko. Mathematically, it would look like this: Katara > Azula > Aang > Zuko. Are we led to believe that Katara is the strongest bender of the bunch? I have trouble with that, too. Overall, I view Aang to be the supreme bender ( considering his untapped power; he doesn't apply himself the way he should ), followed closely by Azula, with Katara and Zuko grappling for third. We all know how much Katara has progressed over the course of the series, and it would appear Zuko is her equal. That's quite a bit of improvement for him, too! That said... if Katara is a Waterbending Master, this would point to Zuko also holding Master status.
|
|
|
Post by aangryjerk on Mar 28, 2007 14:08:54 GMT -5
The two prodigies of the CoD fight both performed pretty badly. Azula underestimated Katara, and when she was caught she panicked. She probably could have gotten free by herself if she had kept a cool head. Aang didn't make use of the elements he knew very well. Waterbending didn't even seem to occur to him, even though there was plenty of water available. When he used earthbending, he seemed to be relying on big intimidating displays, instead of something practical like earthbending the ground underneath his opponents, or shooting rocks at them. Those displays failed pretty badly--it took one Dai Le to trip him up when he was riding in on that giant earth wave. And then he panicked. It's like when both Aang and Azula fail, they panic because they don't have a plan B.
Okay thanks for elaborating on that.
|
|
yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
|
Post by yiceman on Mar 28, 2007 16:38:23 GMT -5
Right, they're so used to winning, they can't adapt, whereas Zuko's used to getting beat up, so he just shrugs it off ;p
|
|
trustno1
Happy Festival Mask
"You got served xD"
Posts: 3,838
|
Post by trustno1 on Mar 28, 2007 16:56:38 GMT -5
Right, they're so used to winning, they can't adapt, whereas Zuko's used to getting beat up, so he just shrugs it off ;p Well, when it comes to the potential Aang obviously is the most powerful. He will be able to master all elements and additionally boosting his powers with the Avatar State, which leaves him with little to no weaknesses, not counting in his spiritual powers connected to the Avatar State like telepathy as seen in "the Swamp". Azula is a prodigy she is more adept to her bending style, which makes her learn it faster, but that's about what a prodigy is, she learns things faster. On the long run, she and Zuko and Katara may turn out at being at equal strength by the end of the show. Katara is in many ways similar to Zuko, which basicly is in my opinion connected to her role in AtlA. Both tend to have similarities, but also contrast much especially in their relationship towards Aang. Zuko seems to be a negative pole to Kataras supportive teaching technique, always there to threaten the young Avatar, thus reminding him unintentionally of his duties, but also ironically ending up as Aangs guardian (even if he guards him from the FN only to hand him over to them personaly in the end). I think that this in the end is probably the major role of Zukos (having an effect on Aangs maturing process in a way) since the show itself revolves mainly around Aang growing into his role as the Avatar. In this way I think that Zuko will always be at equal strength with Katara.
|
|
|
Post by demonofthewest on Mar 29, 2007 21:57:21 GMT -5
If you ask me, there's no denying that Katara is a prodigy just like Azula. Katara never had a waterbending teacher until Pakku, and she spent a fairly short amount of time(was it one month?) with him and was then declared a master. Think about it, Katara spent less than one season with an actual teacher and is then considered a master? For that to make any sense, Katara would either have to be a prodigy or Pakku was using the word "master" very loosely. I know that Katara had been practicing bending by herself for years, but she never had any real training, unlike every other character we've seen(except for Toph, who was apparently self-trained).
|
|
|
Post by dragonflly on Mar 29, 2007 23:35:58 GMT -5
So could we say that Toph is definatley a master as well? I don't think that it was ever mentioned in the show as to if she was or not. I will go along with Katara being a prodigy though, she did learn very quickly, and she always had the abilty. As fo Zuko, I still don't think that he is a master, but I belive after CoD that he is indeed very close. And I do mean VERY close. If ya think about it, his ability seemed to come from no where as well, unless we figure that some of his inner turmoil loosened up a bit.
|
|
|
Post by Fire Lord Azula on Mar 29, 2007 23:42:41 GMT -5
Regarding Master status: what does it take to become one? Does an already-declared Master recognize your talents and deem you accordingly? Do you need to invent a move unique to your bending discipline? Do you need to do something I haven't mentioned? I would really like to know, as the term is thrown around with often little explanation. Even Masters can continue learning new things... so where is the line drawn?
On that point: when and how did Iroh and Azula become Masters? Would Zuko need to mimic their accomplishments in order to earn the title for himself?
|
|
nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
|
Post by nandireya on Mar 30, 2007 2:29:35 GMT -5
Is Azula even a master? I can't recall anyone ever calling her one...
|
|
|
Post by Renoaru on Mar 30, 2007 6:06:14 GMT -5
^Same. Never got called master. o.O
|
|
attonbitus
Blue Spirit
I'm in ur clouds, steel'n ur thundar
Posts: 2,121
|
Post by attonbitus on Mar 30, 2007 8:01:24 GMT -5
Master is just a term in my opinion. Some fighters are very skilled and inventive but go through their whole lives never understanding any nature or aspect of their craft. I think in the generic sense of the avatar world, master is just used to denote completely high level skill.
To me "mastery" also includes understanding the "spirit" of the style aside from per-made techniques.
|
|
trustno1
Happy Festival Mask
"You got served xD"
Posts: 3,838
|
Post by trustno1 on Mar 30, 2007 8:07:37 GMT -5
If you ask me, there's no denying that Katara is a prodigy just like Azula. Katara never had a waterbending teacher until Pakku, and she spent a fairly short amount of time(was it one month?) with him and was then declared a master. Think about it, Katara spent less than one season with an actual teacher and is then considered a master? For that to make any sense, Katara would either have to be a prodigy or Pakku was using the word "master" very loosely. I know that Katara had been practicing bending by herself for years, but she never had any real training, unlike every other character we've seen(except for Toph, who was apparently self-trained). Katara is not a prodigy. She was always practicing the basics of waterbending, even before the plot. You can see her practice along the journey in ep "Warrior of Kyoshi" for example. Her bending skills were compared to Aangs in "Waterbending scroll" to show, that she lacks the natural talent he has, but has a fierce determination and to top it of Pakku himself said... Master Pakku: Katara, you have advanced more quickly than any student I have ever trained. You have proven that with fierce determination, passion and hard work you can accomplish anything. (Turning to look o.c.) Raw talent alone is not enough.Katara is not a prodigy, she just works harder then anyone to achieve what she wants. I think, that we shouldn't take this credit away from her. ^Same. Never got called master. o.O Doesn't being a master include teaching the art? Zhao was called master by Iroh and I doubt he is even close to Azulas skills.
|
|
|
Post by aangryjerk on Mar 30, 2007 12:30:49 GMT -5
^^Agreed about Katara. She clearly had some difficulty handling her element before she found a master, and when she finally did her determination to learn resulted in a fast progression. Zuko was in the first season very impatient with his lessons, so he didn't progress very much. But in season 2 he finally got serious and then he improved dramatically. I like the message that talent isn't enough, and that less talented individuals who are determined to learn and are creative can beat those who have natural talent.
I wonder how Zhao got his master status? He had a couple of impressive moves, but compared to other firebenders he wasn't all that. His original teacher Jeong Jeong certainly didn't name him a master. Maybe he got it by some other means, perhaps paying someone qualified to call someone a master? Maybe they get diplomas for some such document...Zhoa must have mail ordered his.
|
|
|
Post by Fire Lord Azula on Mar 30, 2007 12:33:15 GMT -5
^That's right, trustno1. There really is no way to call Zhao a Master without applying the term to Azula. I'm unable to follow the "never-been-called-a-Master" argument -- I think the series has made it pretty clear that this girl is, indeed, a Master. Has any other Firebender approached the level of difficulty of the mid-air spin in The Drill? She's even been shown to "charge" her fire; again, in The Drill. She's done things that no other Firebender has ( that we've seen or have yet to see )... yet she's not a Master?
Come to think of it, Iroh hasn't been "declared" a Master by anyone, has he? No Firebender has, with the exception of Zhao. But I think we can all agree that Iroh is a Master. Why not Azula, then? What hasn't she done to earn the title? Proper breath control... previously unseen blue flames... the ability to separate positive and negative energies to conduct lightning... fantastic martial-arts maneuvers... what is she missing? A verbal endorsement?
The show has never come out and declared "this is what you need to do to be considered a Master"; never given a concrete example. Like trustno1 said, if Pakku wasn't using the term loosely, and Katara really is a Master... Zuko, with his comparable progress, would also be a Master. And if Zuko is a Master, his prodigal sister must be as well. No way around it.
|
|
trustno1
Happy Festival Mask
"You got served xD"
Posts: 3,838
|
Post by trustno1 on Mar 30, 2007 13:49:35 GMT -5
The show has never come out and declared " this is what you need to do to be considered a Master"; never given a concrete example. Like trustno1 said, if Pakku wasn't using the term loosely, and Katara really is a Master... Zuko, with his comparable progress, would also be a Master. And if Zuko is a Master, his prodigal sister must be as well. No way around it. It is implied that the show builds up Katara and Zuko as equals. I think that the scene in CoD was obvious enough on this matter. The fight was underground, which means that there was no sun and no moon to boost their bending and Katara had a source of water nearby. The result was a fight on equal footing. I know that many are fed up with the yinyang reasoning, but I really think that, even in a non romantic way, it applies to these two a great deal. Probably even more then to any other characters on the show. It's just that the Avatars protector and the Avatars rival have to be at almost identical strength. That's wy their fights are considerably long. It would be interesting to watch them fight alongside against an enemy. I bet they would complement each other very well, especially because of their serious take on bending. I think that the key for being a master is to be declared one by another master. If someone, who is a master himself shows you this kind of respect and aknowledgment you become one yourself. That's why Zuko mastery of firebending is considerably hard to achieve. Iroh is a legend. Even among the EK and apart of being a nice old man, his way of teaching is pretty demanding and strict, if we take the first episode of the show as an example. I'm sure Zuko would already be called master, if he wouldn't be around a legendary FN general and son of a Firelord all this time. If I turn out right about Zuko becoming Aangs sifu, he may be called by Aang a master for the first time, thus achieve mastery by training the Avatar (pretty ironic, huh?). It could also be the "humility" Iroh spoke of in "Bitter Work". But that's just me.^^
|
|
|
Post by demonofthewest on Mar 30, 2007 20:56:02 GMT -5
The thing is, the exact same thing applies to Azula. We saw that she trained relentlessly to get to where she is today. She had one hair out of place during lightning training, and she kept working at it until she got it down perfectly. Raw talent alone is not enough, even for prodigies. Azula got to where she is today by training to the point of exhaustion, not just by being a prodigy.
And yes, Katara had practiced for years by herself, but she knew almost nothing. She had no teacher and could do little more than move water around. She didn't even know the water whip, which was an extremely basic move for waterbenders. Once she got a teacher, however, she learned in no time. You can practice martial arts by youself for years, but even if you are a prodigy, you're not going to get very far if no one teaches you any moves. Katara had no training manuals or do-it-yourself tapes. She was completely on her own, far different from Zuko, who was already being taught by professionals(including Iroh).
|
|