Monk
Haru
Posts: 337
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Post by Monk on Jun 26, 2007 21:44:04 GMT -5
Okay, so the target audience has probably not seen Braveheart, but they have probably seen Kiera Knightley make the Braveheart speech in Pirates 3. ::shudders::
There are still other ways to inspire people besides the Braveheart speech.
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Post by healingman on Jun 26, 2007 22:16:07 GMT -5
Okay, whose Jin, Song and Meng ;D
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Monk
Haru
Posts: 337
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Post by Monk on Jun 26, 2007 22:38:01 GMT -5
Jin = Zuko's Ba Sing Se Date Song = Fellow Fire Nation Burn-Victim Associate Meng = Annoying girl who had a crush on Aang
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Post by aangryjerk on Jun 27, 2007 6:42:37 GMT -5
No offense to some folks here, but it sounds like you'd rather Katara be the firelord than Zuko. You're not giving Zuko very much credit. He'll probably be very capable of inspiring his people and running his Nation on his own. He doesn't need a mouthpiece to go around inspiring people for him. In fact that would probably have the opposite effect, because the people would think he's weak. Your forgetting that the FN is a monarchy, and the king has to be supreme and a symbol of his nation.
And honestly, I don't see Katara ever caring two bits enough to inspire the FN populace. I think people are idealizing her a bit much.
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tara22
Warrior Sokka
mmmwaa....ouch, my lips
Posts: 764
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Post by tara22 on Jun 27, 2007 7:18:37 GMT -5
^ If that's regarding anything I've written then it's been taken the wrong way. I don't want Katara or anyone else taking over the Firelord role. I thought I'd already stated this - I've been saying she'd be great in a supporting role vs. the other option(s). And I don't think that having a strong supporter would make a leader look weak. Behind every great man is a great woman to back him up, that's the saying I think......or maybe he won't get married at all....who knows? I was only stating if he did, whom I thought would be a great choice as she cares about all people, it's her nature. The only one she doesn't give two bits about right now is Zuko. So like I said, it's a longshot anyway. Zuko is the one I'd like to see as Firelord, so hopefully that's understood now. Thanks Feng Shui. In your last post you said exactly what I meant, *karma* back to you
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Post by aangryjerk on Jun 27, 2007 8:28:55 GMT -5
It seems you're trying to take part of Zuko's destined role and give it to Katara, to make her seem more important. For your ship to sail, you'd have to take her away from Aang, and doing that would make her lose her own importance--that of being Aang's companion, helper, and love interest. So I can see why you'd want to have her take some of Zuko's role, so she'll continue to have some importance.
But the fact is, Zuko was been set up for the role of leading the FN into a more benevolent era when he spoke out against sacrificing troops in the General's council. He doesn't need another character to influence him to take that role because he's already taken it. He just needs to sort out his daddy issues and stop being a "bad guy" first.
If he ever marries, he will not choose someone who tries to push him or take on some of his responsibility. He'll want someone who'll comfort him most likely; someone he can take the crown off and unwind and relax with. And frankly, Katara just doesn't fit the bill. She's too active and passionate, and often uptight herself. I think she will irritate the hell out of Zuko, and make him more tense than ever.
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Post by princessmai on Jun 27, 2007 13:40:03 GMT -5
I still don't see Katara as being able to fill an appropriate Fire Lady role.
She might embody 'water' which symbolizes change and so forth, but I don't think she would be able to do that for the Fire Nation. An example would be what she did in the Northern Water Tribe. If she is so capable of changing, she would have been able to accept their traditions that has been ingrained in their culture for hundreds of years, but she didn't. She didn't like it, so she went to extremes (like challenging a freakin' master) so she could change it.
That's why instead of Katara changing herself, I think she would try to change the Fire Nation, which would ultimately be harmful to Zuko's reign. Especially when she's going around with noble ideals in a place as messed up as the Fire Nation and pretty much opposed to her ideas.
The FN might be able to accept her one day, but I think it will take a very long time considering all of the propoganda they have been fed for a hundred years. And, again, before they do accept her (if they ever will) I think Zuko's reign will already be too screwed up before that happens.
Then there's the whole fact that she knows nothing about thier politics, she's way too stubborn in her beliefs and way too idealistic for the Fire Nation if you ask me. I just think Zuko can be the one to pull the FN out of ruin, and the one to 'change' the Fire Nation, seeing how he is a different and much nicer person than the previous Fire Lord's were, so I don't see what Katara has to offer him on that score. Again, all I see her doing is harming his reign as the Fire Lord.
Now, I can't say exactly what kind of Fire Lady Mai would be. All I can say is that it's highly probably that she knows the politics of the Fire Nation and that she isn't this idealist/beacon of truth and justice which would put her contrary to anything the FN might need or something that Zuko may have to do. And I like the fact that she is much more calm, and Zuko could really benefit from some of her calm rubbing off on him. Like Iroh said, "Keeping a calm head, is the sign of a great leader." (or something like that). But, we don't know much about Mai to say exactly what she can or cannot do for the FN, so I guess we'll just have to wait and see.
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Post by aangryjerk on Jun 28, 2007 7:28:43 GMT -5
Frankly, I don't think the water symbolism and whatnot means a hill of beans. I think Mai would be a better match for Zuko because of her passive, cool personality than another hot-head like Katara. True she's passive and cool almost to the point of coldness, and at their extremes those qualities aren't good. But consider Zuko's obsessiveness and hot-headedness, which, as we've seen, makes him do some pretty bad and downright stupid things sometimes. If you want to use the "opposites attract" cliche, Mai and Zuko are very opposite without actually clashing. I think together they would mitigate the extremes of each other, Zuko might calm down and use his head more, and Mai might have a bit more emotion and initiative. I don't know what sort of "fire lady" Mai would be. I don't think there is such a title or position in canon. I think most likely she'd just be the wife of Fire Lord Zuko, and hang about looking elegant and making babies with him. Maybe what makes life interesting for her is just being with Zuko, but if she's bored she probably can pursue some projects like patronage in the arts and theatre, or martial arts. Like the Medici's did for Italy, she could spark a sort of renaissance of thought and art in the FN. I may be speculating wildly but in real life history bored wealthy nobles have been a good thing for the world.
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Post by Holierthanthou on Jun 28, 2007 13:25:43 GMT -5
Frankly, I don't think the water symbolism and whatnot means a hill of beans. I think Mai would be a better match for Zuko because of her passive, cool personality than another hot-head like Katara. True she's passive and cool almost to the point of coldness, and at their extremes those qualities aren't good. But consider Zuko's obsessiveness and hot-headedness, which, as we've seen, makes him do some pretty bad and downright stupid things sometimes. If you want to use the "opposites attract" cliche, Mai and Zuko are very opposite without actually clashing. I think together they would mitigate the extremes of each other, Zuko might calm down and use his head more, and Mai might have a bit more emotion and initiative. I don't know what sort of "fire lady" Mai would be. I don't think there is such a title or position in canon. I think most likely she'd just be the wife of Fire Lord Zuko, and hang about looking elegant and making babies with him. Maybe what makes life interesting for her is just being with Zuko, but if she's bored she probably can pursue some projects like patronage in the arts and theatre, or martial arts. Like the Medici's did for Italy, she could spark a sort of renaissance of thought and art in the FN. I may be speculating wildly but in real life history bored wealthy nobles have been a good thing for the world. The term Fire Lady is canon, and I believe it was used to describe Ursa at Azulon's funeral. Then again, the term is probably just a fancy name for what you said, the wife of the Fire Lord. She probably has privileges, but little political power outside changing the Fire Lord's opinion.
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Post by aangryjerk on Jun 28, 2007 15:48:26 GMT -5
^^I looked up the fire sage's lines from Zuko Alone. www.avatarspiritmedia.net/transcripts.php?ep=207He describes Azulon as among other things "Husband of Ila". Ila isn't given a title, and Ursa isn't even mentioned. If there is any use of the term "fire lady" maybe someone can give a quote and link to settle the matter. Until then, I say the term "fire lady" doesn't exist in canon, and the wife of the Fire Lord is only that--a wife. That doesn't mean Fire Lord Zuko's wife won't have any influence. But she certainly won't be lording it up, or pressuring him to do things he doesn't agree with, or making sweeping changes to the Fire Nation culture either.
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Post by Holierthanthou on Jun 28, 2007 16:03:03 GMT -5
^^I looked up the fire sage's lines from Zuko Alone. www.avatarspiritmedia.net/transcripts.php?ep=207He describes Azulon as among other things "Husband of Ila". Ila isn't given a title, and Ursa isn't even mentioned. If there is any use of the term "fire lady" maybe someone can give a quote and link to settle the matter. Until then, I say the term "fire lady" doesn't exist in canon, and the wife of the Fire Lord is only that--a wife. That doesn't mean Fire Lord Zuko's wife won't have any influence. But she certainly won't be lording it up, or pressuring him to do things he doesn't agree with, or making sweeping changes to the Fire Nation culture either. Sorry, I hope I didn't offend you by assuming I knew something you didn't. But I'm almost positive I heard the term "Fire Lady" used in the show. I'm probably wrong. Still, the term (if it's canon) won't mean anything. It's probably just to identify her status as a member of the royal family, not as a political figure. I doubt even Katara could change that. If her and Zuko even fell in love (I highly doubt it) and she got past the political upheaval a Water Tribe girl marrying into the FN royalty would cause.
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Post by aangryjerk on Jun 28, 2007 16:26:41 GMT -5
^^No offense taken I just like to find definite canon to back my theories up. Although it's kinda hard in this case because I'm trying to prove a negative. One thing that I agree with others here about Katara is that she is a natural motivator and reformer. But I think if she married a Fire Lord she would lose any opportunity to act on those impulses. She'd be an alien in the culture, and would have no political power of her own. She'd be better able to change the world if she remains single...or remains partnered with Aang whose mission is to save(change) the world. And she'd be much happier I bet.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Jun 28, 2007 17:24:07 GMT -5
Ah, "Fire Lady"... a fanon concoction that somehow bled into the fabric of canon.
I'm throwing my absolute support behind aangryjerk, who nailed it. If the term existed within the scope of the show ( which it doesn't ), it would've been inserted during Azulon's funeral, when his deceased wife was mentioned. No title -- therefore, nonexistent. "Fire Lady" doesn't exist. It's a term relegated to fanfiction and has nothing at all to do with the show itself.
For the record, Ursa was Princess when she disappeared; never "Fire Lady". A common, unfounded error.
Should Zuko go on to become Fire Lord in the future and take a wife, she'll probably be known as "Princess Consort", if anything.
I understand the inclination to elevate the Fire Lord's wife to some sort of equal status, whether by title or wielding of power, but the term simply has no basis in the land of canon.
Anyhow, Zuko could do with a firm support-system, should he rise to power. Someone who, while not necessarily a carbon-copy of his ideals, would be at his side to encourage him during the tough times and provide occasional imput. Someone who acknowledges the need for space -- she must be willing to let him take a stand as Fire Lord and shape the nation with his own hands, giving him that much-needed sense of accomplishment he sorely lacks at present. She must be careful to avoid the appearance of "holding his hand", so to speak. Zuko needs to break away from the urging of others and finally come to terms with his own beliefs. Whoever can strike a balance between unwavering support and personal freedom would be ideal for him.
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Post by Purplejay on Jul 2, 2007 18:14:38 GMT -5
If Katara were to become Zuko's wife, she would try to change the customs, as some posts say. She's always the one for equality and rights, so naturally, she'll try to reform the Fire Nation. Then, she realizes that she has almost no power over the land and will try to change the rules so that she has power as well. Stubborn as she is, the people will revolt. They're just not used to a woman governing their nation, and a sudden change like that, especially by a member of the Water Tribe, will probably offend the Fire Nation as well as its ancient beliefs.
On the other hand, Mai isn't fussy about changing things. She'll let Zuko take the reins, and give him advice when needed. She isn't very patient, though, which might be an issue. If both Zuko and Mai are impatient, especially, say... on the verge of another war, even one they didn't cause, there might be some problems. The good thing is that both Katara and Mai aren't easily swayed, and won't succumb to pressure.
Discuss. We're getting somewhere.
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Post by aangryjerk on Jul 3, 2007 5:02:45 GMT -5
There's still is an element in this discussion of the Firelord's wife being like a queen with some power. I don't believe the position holds any power, and I don't see the wife of the FL actually being able to change or influence the Fire Nation society. If she tried, she'd probably would damage the Fire Lord's image. I think before things get too dire, she'd just be "put away". (Come to think of it, maybe that's what happened to Ursa.)People arguing for Katara being Fire Lord Zuko's wife are correct in saying she would want to change things, be involved in events, and influence people. But she wouldn't be able to do any of that if she's married to the Fire Lord, (regardless of who it is). She'd be absolutely miserable with frustration, and she would make him unhappy in turn. So I really think this idea of "Fire Lady Katara" is a bit silly. I am less certain how Mai would take to being the wife of the Fire Lord. There just isn't enough to go on about her character. Maybe she'll be bored, or maybe she'll be happy to be with Zuko. But she certainly won't be chafing to run things herself because she clearly isn't the type of person who's interested in changing the world. As for Zuko, I don't see him choosing a companion who'll want to try to run things, or prod him into action, or has some idealistic notions of how things should be. He really has those qualities himself, even if they are buried deep for now, and he'll likely find them on his own. I'm a firm believer in Zuko "fixing" himself, not being "fixed" by others. I think GOZ is probably right, that he'll pick someone who gives him support without impinging on his freedom. I don't see any of the girls in the list fitting that mold, except for the one we really don't know much about yet: Mai. We'll have to see how she develops. BTW, how is Mai impatient? Just asking, because to me she doesn't seem that way, just very bored with life, and in need of motivation and excitement.
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