that, is true. but it is just one big nessacary plot hole IMO.
think about it. M&B needed aang/zuko bonding alone time. that episode would not have worked with anyone else there. in fact, they barely pulled it off without people asking "wait, what the hell was appa doing when Aang screamed for help?"
they just didnt have enough time to explain anything. makes more sense then some massive internal sub-plot with katara that just isnt needed right now, imo.
hopefully, in the next episode, they will explain that Zuko and Aang snuck off without anybody knowing. if they dont, it will fall in the same league as "why didnt katara heal Jet with her spirit water?"
Post by conspiracytheorist on Apr 6, 2008 16:26:13 GMT -5
Maybe Haru will approach her on this subject. She inspired him a lot, and to see her being so spiteful and bitter should shock/sadden him.
Or maybe Haru, Teo and The Duke just accompanied Aang & Co. so that they'd be in every episode for about forty-five seconds and then disappear. =(
On topic, a lot of people in this thread are calling Katara bitter and battle-hardened. To those people I say, "Whuh?" What does she have to be bitter about?
Awakening: Her spat with daddy was pretty minor, if you ask me. They didn't do a grade-A job with the scene, but even beyond that, they were perfectly cordial when they met up again before the invasion. Looks like they parted on good terms, or else she realized that she was being unreasonable. Either way, what's there to get hugely bitter about?
Headband: Hormones? ;/
Painted: Obviously she encountered some resistance from her friends here. But it was nothing to get bitter about. They even tied it up with a shiny bow in the form of her little speech at the end, there.
Sokka's Master: She was barely in this one.
Beach: She was barely in this one.
Avatar/Fire Lord: She was barely in this one.
Runaway: Her argument with Toph was tied up even more nicely than her disagreement with Sokka in "Painted". While she could at least make a case for justification here, she ended up offering to meet Toph halfway in their fight. "Let's pull off the ultimate scam?" Wow, what bitterness!
Puppet: Okay, so we finally get something here. Hama really messed her up. She didn't just acquire a dark skill that she didn't want anything to do with. Hama got close to her as much more than a waterbending teacher, and then betrayed her.
Nightmares: Did she do anything in this episode except provide fanservice?
DoBS: So Katara was a pretty major part of the invasion. I suppose you could call her "battle-hardened" after that, but it's a bit of a stretch. And the invasion was obviously a failure, so she's going to be bitter about that. But, in a display of real maturity, she puts her hand on Aang's shoulder when they're preparing to flee. She was strong enough to comfort her friend when he was in need. She wasn't breaking down, herself.
Plus, more hormones if you shippers are keeping score.
WaT: Suddenly Zuko shows up and she goes aggro on him. Honestly, I think her reaction was pretty normal. Sure, you feel bad for Zuko because he's your favorite, and that scene where he's sitting on his butt dripping water like a wet rag is pretty pitiful. But Zuko betrayed her. She hasn't witnessed his transformation over the course of all these episodes like we have. The death threat was just vague enough for work, for me. If she had come out and said, "I'm gonna bloodbend you to death," or something, it would be a different story.
FBM: So she was a little snarky in this one, sure. Oh no, she made fun of Zuko! Where's all this bitterness towards Aang, Sokka, Toph? It's all directed at Zuko. It's all going back to Crossroads, with a little bit stemming from Puppetmaster.
Is she bitter at Zuko? Heck yeah. Is she a bitter, battle-hardened warrior? Not to the point where you can point to that as the reason for her dropping popularity with fans, or her outbursts at Zuko, her dad, Toph, whatever. Does nobody else believe that her behavior toward Zuko is reasonable based on how he acted in last season's final episode? Don't forget that she knows almost nothing about him other than that he's trying to capture the world's last hope for peace.
EDIT: Those of you who are making the case that "if Katara had threatened Zuko solely because she thought Zuko was a danger to Aang, she would have gone with them in FBM," think about how much it would have cost to animate Katara in that episode. She's a major character, so she isn't gonna get the Haru/Duke/Teo treatment. And it really would have complicated the whole story driving that episode, to boot. She didn't fail to accompany them because her death threat was motivated by some raging warrior monster thing inside of her. She didn't accompany them because it wasn't necessary for the progression of the story, and it cuts costs as an added bonus (or, if you're the cynical type, 'it cut costs, and it wasn't necessary for the progression of the story as an added bonus').
They sure didn't care how much it costs to put Katara in other episodes. 45 seconds of her sitting on Appa giving Zuko the evil eye would not kill their budget. She could've stayed with Appa while Zuko and Aang had their bonding time.
She could be bitter about a war that has lasted her whole life.
I believe that she is not quick to trust because of the situation with Jet, Zuko, and Hama. Which I guess is a good thing because all three made a monkey out of her.
A character like Haru has not seen this side of Katara. He saw her motivating the people of his village and sacrificing herself to help them. Her making fun of another person like this should be disturbing to him and disturbing to fans who look up to her because of her compassion for others.
Meh, I think people have pretty much stopped delueding themselves... those who have restricted themselves from spoilers are in a verry small minority at this point.
and ya, I agree with conspiracytheorist. (I think he just didnt see my post)
also, if katara had gone with them to give zuko the evil eye, and then just stay with appa... why would she be staying with appa? that just leads to an even bigger plot hole. whereas here, M&B let the audiance think that they might have snuck off in the middle of the night.
or that zuko had a big long conversation with aang asking him to protect him from katatra, and aang had a big lon conversation with katara, making up some excuse, that M&B just didnt have enough time to show.
Last Edit: Apr 6, 2008 18:02:53 GMT -5 by Zenjamin
Because she is not a firebender and entering the temple would be overkill.
It leads to a bigger plot hole in your opinion. Katara could go to make sure they were going to where they are going and to make sure Aang gets back home safely. She does not have to enter the actual temple. But all this is beside the point.
I still believe the bitter theory. Which understandable in a time of war.
Post by conspiracytheorist on Apr 6, 2008 18:53:27 GMT -5
I saw you, Zen, I was just backing you up.
deana - I suppose that Katara could have come with them, but then Aang and Zuko would just go off on their own and she's hanging out with Appa? That doesn't make much sense to me. But as you say, it's all beside the point. I'm sure there are fifty different explanations for why she did or didn't go, and none of us can ever know with certainty which it is.
Katara could definitely be bitter about the war as a whole. Her mother was taken from her by the Fire Nation, her father left when she was fairly young, and now she's in the middle of the whole thing and they've just lost what they thought would be the battle that would end the war. So I'm sure she's quite frustrated at the moment. But she doesn't turn away from Aang in anger when they're preparing to flee on Appa's back. In the episodes following the invasion, she doesn't place the blame for their failure on anyone. Not until Zuko appears on the scene does she go into banshee mode.
So I'd agree that she's got some trust issues right now. Jet is a good example - I had forgotten about him. Zuko, and Hama too. Now that I think about it, Katara has been betrayed by somebody close to her in each season. But is she a bitter person? I don't think you could call it that. The phrase I used just a bit ago, "trust issues," is how I'd describe it.
"It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If we take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale."
I hope something saves her. Honestly, she is exactly like my ex best friend IRL. She even looks just like her with the dark brown hair to her butt and blue eyes. She acts just like her. Soo, I'm bitter towards that personality. But, because I've heard others say the same I know it's not just me. I love the concept of Aang being the supreme good, and knowing someone so much like Katara (even if I no longer like her) makes her character sooo much more believable. Anyway, I would love to like her again.
I think this is a realistic progression for her to go through at the moment considering all thats occured to her. I also think her base personality, the kind and compassionate Katara, will come out in the end more vibrant because its been tested the way it has. Lets be realistic. They aren't going ot leave her this way, basically because, as a rule, people are not supposed to hate one another. Especially not the good guys. Katara is on that path right now but there is no way she, as a heroine, will stay on that path. She will end up forgiving the transgressions against her and rising beyond it.
Alleluia, I think you are the first person I've seen that has stated that Katara will return to her normal, positive self by the end of the series. *Karmas*. I am so glad - I was beginning to worry that I was the only one who thought her character had changed, and I was really concerned that she would stay that way until the end of the series, which would be a horrible end for her character.
Personally, I've stated that Katara has been potrayed as bitter, but at this point I will admit it's still vague enough to be open to interpetation. My impression is based on her facial expressions, and how her lines are delievered, which are pretty nebulous things since the show is animated. So at this point we'll probably have to wait and see. If something is brewing within her character, it'll probably be heavilly hinted at in the coming episodes.
I'm somewhat surprised at the shipping undercurrent that this thread seems to have. Acknowledging that Katara was hurt by Zuko's actions in COD isn't tantamount to denying Kataang, or supporting Zutara. It makes logical sense that what Zuko did changed Katara's thinking - she offered to help Zuko twice in season two, when he was obviously chasing Aang, and she's certainly not willing to help him now. Acknowledging that the events at COD impacted her doesn't necessarily mean that Katara has an interest in Zuko, it could just mean that it changed how she views people in general. Another person's actions can have a huge impact on your personality without you being romantically linked with them.
Thanks for the karma, Mello. And you and I aren't the only ones who think she will get past this, I am sure. I mean, really, it would make no sense if she didn't become herself again. Changed and matured, surely, but still herself.
And I think its a good and safe bet to place your interpretations on facial expressions and such. I mean with the expressions, its on there for a reason. *Someone* had to purposely draw it like that. I mean, if we are talking simple line mouths in the middle or far distance, then, yeah, not much attention should be paid to them. But clear facial expressions? Those are important and meant to be seen. Now, line delivery *is* a little more nebulous, because you can have a line delivered with great emotion and spot on and turn out not to be too terribly important. But most of the time, on this show, the vocal producer woman(whose name I completely forget) has done a great job making sure the lines are delivered brilliantly. Not to mention the VAs are all talented enough to deliver various emotional nuances in their speech. One example that always sticks out to me is Jessica Flower's line when Toph gets trapped in the metal box by Xin Fu and Yu at the end of 218. She delivered so much emotion into that one line, it was great. So, on other shows, the voices might be something you could overlook, but on ATLA, they carry a lot of weight, too.
Last Edit: Apr 9, 2008 12:57:42 GMT -5 by Alleluia
^Funniest sig ever, by Bagpipe Turtle. XD
"We were just admiring the mudan tree. The blossoms reach for the sunlight above, yet, unseen, the roots reach for the rainwater below. Sun and rain, so different, yet only by working together do they create hamony... and life." -Mulan II (So Zutara)
I really appreciate the info. This is the first animated show I've probably ever seriously watched, and so I don't know much about the actual process, and the relative significance of some of the things I'm seeing and interpeting. It's much easier with live actors - if they do a close up while they're delivering a line, it's pretty much a giveaway that it's important. In Avatar, I'm not always sure.
In terms of facial expression, what really struck me was that in looking at older episodes, Katara was usually pictured as comedically angry, like this:
Whereas this season, it's been more subtle and serious, like this:
There are screenshots that better explain what I'm trying to say, but I have a feeling we're on the same wavelength anyway.
In The Chase, Katara was open minded (and maybe idealistic) enough to offer to help Iroh even though he was on 'the bad side'. I really admired her character in that moment and I'm hoping she doesn't lose that quality.