dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jul 23, 2010 14:06:42 GMT -5
I'm liking the theory as one factor, but the main cause of the turmoil in the RC? Probably not. I agree. Indeed I think finding the true cause of the problems in RC will not be so simple for this avatar as stopping the evil overlord of one nation. Or resolving the issue of nature/spirit world vs. tech/science As Bryke said in their interview, crime is rampant in the metropolis of Republic City. So from that I realized some things: Major Theory: • If RC was founded by the Gaang as a way to bring the nations together to resolve their differences after the Fire Nation wars, then it stands to reason that before the prominence of steam tech, RC was founded and governed by benders well over 70 years ago. minor theories: • And if the above is true, then it's not too far of a stretch to consider that the ruling government in the city-state of RC are comprised mostly of benders (possibly descendants of the original founders). • If said ruling class of benders views non-benders embracing steam tech as a threat to their hegemony, then it's possible that they would also take steps to ensure their authority isn't undermined by the emerging new class of citizenry who show no deference to benders. • If oppression exists that was perpetrated by the benders in the first place then I can see why an anti-bender revolt would arise and so would crime. • Not to mention if the crime rate in RC is that rampant as implied by Bryke then it's possible that the government of RC is also corrupt by reputation and by extension giving benders a bad rep in RC. • Nevermind the possible animosity and conflicts arising between benders and members of all four nations living in one cramped and crowded place. All of which I'd say Korra has got her work cut out for her...
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avatarluv
Jet
You don't like my singing?
Posts: 361
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Post by avatarluv on Jul 23, 2010 22:13:32 GMT -5
Well, there is clearly not just one cause of the situation. As all fans of history such as myself know, there is never just one cause of an event. Speaking of which, can anyone think of potential similar parallels to real-life history, as there were in A:TLA? By the way, I'm really enjoying seeing all these theories pop up.
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dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jul 23, 2010 23:56:39 GMT -5
Speaking of which, can anyone think of potential similar parallels to real-life history, as there were in A:TLA? As Bryke mentioned in their recent interview they took a lot for their inspiration for the over all atmosphere of the last series from events in the previous World War era's. Since the whole war of the allied nations against the Fire nation was the central conflict of the series all throughout.
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Post by MasterEcabob on Jul 24, 2010 4:00:43 GMT -5
As Bryke said in their interview, crime is rampant in the metropolis of Republic City. So from that I realized some things: Major Theory: • If RC was founded by the Gaang as a way to bring the nations together to resolve their differences after the Fire Nation wars, then it stands to reason that before the prominence of steam tech, RC was founded and governed by benders well over 70 years ago. minor theories: • And if the above is true, then it's not too far of a stretch to consider that the ruling government in the city-state of RC are comprised mostly of benders (possibly descendants of the original founders). • If said ruling class of benders views non-benders embracing steam tech as a threat to their hegemony, then it's possible that they would also take steps to ensure their authority isn't undermined by the emerging new class of citizenry who show no deference to benders. • If oppression exists that was perpetrated by the benders in the first place then I can see why an anti-bender revolt would arise and so would crime. • Not to mention if the crime rate in RC is that rampant as implied by Bryke then it's possible that the government of RC is also corrupt by reputation and by extension giving benders a bad rep in RC. • Nevermind the possible animosity and conflicts arising between benders and members of all four nations living in one cramped and crowded place. All of which I'd say Korra has got her work cut out for her... That would indeed be interesting if we ended up with a group of corrupt benders; they've certainly made a precedent for it with the Dai Le. Another thing that would be interesting to see would be situations where the non-benders or other poor people refused Korra's help due to her bending abilities. Only for her to slowly gain their respect through keeping peace and protecting the weak.
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dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jul 24, 2010 4:55:36 GMT -5
That would indeed be interesting if we ended up with a group of corrupt benders; they've certainly made a precedent for it with the Dai Le. Another thing that would be interesting to see would be situations where the non-benders or other poor people refused Korra's help due to her bending abilities. Only for her to slowly gain their respect through keeping peace and protecting the weak. Considering the description we know of Korra who's a brash, rebellious, and hot-tempered avatar. (she sounds like she came from the Fire nation doesn't she?) I wouldn't be surprised if Bryke come up with an episode where we see Korra do some anarchist antics ala V for Vendetta.
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Jul 24, 2010 16:54:34 GMT -5
Major Theory: • If RC was founded by the Gaang as a way to bring the nations together to resolve their differences after the Fire Nation wars, then it stands to reason that before the prominence of steam tech, RC was founded and governed by benders well over 70 years ago. I'm kinda hoping RC wasn't some planned city by the gAang to help the nations coexist. But I don't see even at that why they'd be benders. To me, that doesn't make sense. There are plenty of great leaders who are not benders, such as Sokka and Katara's father. I would kind of hope that the gAang (and Aang in particular) would butt out of politics and only intervene if safety was a concern. • And if the above is true, then it's not too far of a stretch to consider that the ruling government in the city-state of RC are comprised mostly of benders (possibly descendants of the original founders). • If said ruling class of benders views non-benders embracing steam tech as a threat to their hegemony, then it's possible that they would also take steps to ensure their authority isn't undermined by the emerging new class of citizenry who show no deference to benders. • If oppression exists that was perpetrated by the benders in the first place then I can see why an anti-bender revolt would arise and so would crime. • Not to mention if the crime rate in RC is that rampant as implied by Bryke then it's possible that the government of RC is also corrupt by reputation and by extension giving benders a bad rep in RC. • Nevermind the possible animosity and conflicts arising between benders and members of all four nations living in one cramped and crowded place. Any city has crime, regardless of who's steering the ship, and I'd wager that in a big city, there'd be plenty of issues. I don't see why this bending class has to necessarily be corrupted though, especially because it would seem like it's creating too much sympathy for the non-benders. If anything, I would also hope that if the gAang did create the city, they wouldn't put all the power with one group of people, such as the benders. If one group or person has all the cards, then it's just too easy for them to become corrupt, and personally, I'm hoping that the gAang would have a lot more sense than to just set it up for trouble a few years along. Besides, I doubt very seriously these kids are arrogant enough to think they can just make a city and it all go fine and dandy without any outside input, especially from someone who does lead a city, like Bumi or even Sokka and Katara's father. Honestly, to me, it seems just as plausible that non-benders became jealous of the benders and/or they see the bending art as outdated compared to their modernized technology.
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dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jul 24, 2010 21:15:52 GMT -5
Warning: long post ahead I'm kinda hoping RC wasn't some planned city by the gAang to help the nations coexist. But I don't see even at that why they'd be benders. To me, that doesn't make sense. There are plenty of great leaders who are not benders, such as Sokka and Katara's father. I would kind of hope that the gAang (and Aang in particular) would butt out of politics and only intervene if safety was a concern. It does seem plausible that RC wasn't created by the Gaang, but I was working on what was the most likely scenario that the four nations would come together and live all in one place and create this metropolis after a 100 years of war and animosity. To me the Avatar's/Gaang's influence of trying to promote peace and unity by inspiring member's of the four nations to live in one place as an example of international peace seemed the most plausible. I noted that Aang in particular wasn't too keen on politics and governance (compared to Sokka and Katara who seemed more civic minded) but as the Avatar he did show he had a socially responsible side which manifested when he saw people who fought each other needlessly. (As in the Winter Solstice and the Canyon eppy's) I would imagine that even in the wake of Fire Lord Ozai's defeat peace was not very easy to come by among the 3 remaining nations after over 100 years of war. Without the Avatar's/Gaang's influence after Fire Lord Ozai's defeat, it's very likely peace would not reign too long before some misunderstanding sparks hostilities once more between the surviving nations. Also consider that the Fire nation probably already had colonies in Air and Earth territories by the end of the war, when Ozai was defeated do you think the Avatar would force these Fire nation colonials to simply pack up their things, uproot their lives and go back home after living where they have for generations? Would EK refugees not try and take back what they'd lost and seen as land that rightfully belonged to them? I know for certain that by the series end many people were displaced by the wars and have probably come into conflict with people for territories and living space. EK refugees who would want to retake land lost to the FN colonies would spark more violence especially if said colonials don't want to leave. To me setting RC up by the Gaang as a place where people who were displaced by the wars could come and live in peace without fear of reprisal from the old hostilities of the war made a lot of sense. As far as leadership of nations were concerned, IMO I've seen benders enjoy a more privileged position in society compared to non-benders . And while it is true that there are great non-bender leaders, my point is that in most instances where we saw examples of governance in the series, bender's seemed to comprise the positions of administration far more than non-benders or benders in general hold more influence. Taking into account merely from what we've seen of the series: • Earth Kingdom had one non-bending earth king, his attendants, generals and advisors seemed to be made of mostly benders. • The Northern Water Tribe chief seemed not to be a bender as well, but even their leader deferred to Pakku with signs of great deference and respect who presumably was a member of the tribal council but was not it's leader. • FN has a bending Royal family. • The one exception to this was Hakoda who we can't really count in this argument since the line of benders in the Southern water tribe were nearly wiped out by the FN. • Nevermind the Air Nomads who are all benders. • Tsin the Great was a bender. • The Avatar, while ruling no nation, holds so much diplomatic and political influence that people can't help but obey and entire systems of government can be changed by his influence alone. Any city has crime, regardless of who's steering the ship, and I'd wager that in a big city, there'd be plenty of issues. I don't see why this bending class has to necessarily be corrupted though, especially because it would seem like it's creating too much sympathy for the non-benders. The benders don't have to be corrupt, I agree. That was just part of the theory I came up with from the statement by Bryke that "crime in RC is rampant" taken to a further conclusion. It's not just crime that's on the street but what about if it was also in the reigns of power. But it doesn't take the majority of a group of people to give the rest a bad reputation. Have a few bad apples in positions of power who abuse it as we've seen in the old series and it doesn't take long to alienate the people. Of course this is considering if my assumption of the nature of leadership about benders having more influence and positions of power in governance is true. If anything, I would also hope that if the gAang did create the city, they wouldn't put all the power with one group of people, such as the benders. If one group or person has all the cards, then it's just too easy for them to become corrupt, and personally, I'm hoping that the gAang would have a lot more sense than to just set it up for trouble a few years along. Besides, I doubt very seriously these kids are arrogant enough to think they can just make a city and it all go fine and dandy without any outside input, especially from someone who does lead a city, like Bumi or even Sokka and Katara's father. Like I said if one of my assumptions is true, (benders mostly comprising the ruling class) then the Gaang wouldn't put all power in one person, just a group of people, probably coincidentally comprised of mostly benders from the different nations. That group of people would be the ruling senate of RC (which would make sense why it's called Republic City). They probably didn't start out corrupt, but as the city grew, people make compromises, too many deals to get ahead of everyone else, and eventually you have people with more power than most and from there abuse and corruption is not too far. Despite the Gaang's best intentions for making RC, if they did make it, best intentions can have unintended negative consequences beyond the ability of people to foresee. Honestly, to me, it seems just as plausible that non-benders became jealous of the benders and/or they see the bending art as outdated compared to their modernized technology. That's just as likely true considering what little we know of the series setting so far. But why would non-benders be jealous of benders if they embrace steam tech and can do things for themselves that benders used to do for them? Wouldn't they become more independent then instead of becoming jealous? If they did become jealous and thus create a revolt that would imply that the benders had something that non-benders wanted but didn't have. If steam tech would have allowed non-benders to replace a need for benders then surely it's not physical power, but what else is it then that they could be jealous of? Social standing? Political power? You gotta admit having a city inhabited by members of all the nations seems unprecedented in the Avatar's world. The idea of a Republic aside from the feudal/communal system we've seen is relatively new. And having a group people (presumably non-benders) who don't need nor show any deference to benders due to their mastery of steam tech would pretty much be considered a new class of citizenry. Class conflicts from real-life history are very real(like between nobles and merchants in the 15th century), and in those instances any old or ruling class would always come into conflict with the newer one. Corruption and oppression are all too likely.
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Post by teknomage on Jul 25, 2010 0:49:35 GMT -5
Liking all the theorizing so far. Meanwhile, I'm wondering if the Order of the White Lotus could have had a hand in founding the city, sounds right up their alley... but then again, considering they were a secret society, I wonder if they're still secret? The world, after ATLA ended, may be what they wanted it to be, potentially, but I'm sure they're wise enough to know it may not work out ideally, so it may be best to remain hidden. (And did they ever say when the society was founded? Was it not until Sozin started the war, or was it long before that?) I've always liked the OWL, so I hope they're a part of the new series, whether openly or behind the scenes (though I also wonder if even they might become corrupted into some kind of shadow conspiracy like the Illuminati or something).
Also, the whole steam punk thing... it puts me in mind of how the different nations always seemed to me to be at different levels of technical advancement, and obviously the FN was always the most advanced... in fact they were somewhat steam punk even in the original series, so it could be that in trying to modernize the rest of the world, it's just a new spin on the old theme... we've already seen that Sozin originally thought what he was doing was for the good of the entire world, so it'd be interesting to see if going about the same thing in a different way might... have mixed results, with some people embracing the FN influence, while others still distrust them and the changes they're bringing about.
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Jul 25, 2010 11:34:28 GMT -5
dirtyyasuki: I just don't like how they have to all be benders. Maybe that just bugs me because it's a form of discrimination, but I would hope that Aang would be more considerate, especially because Sokka is a non-bender, and they're good friends. No matter what kind of technology they have, they still can't wield elements. People get jealous for even more ridiculous things, like Katara over Aang's quick learning/mastering of waterbending. Besides, what benders have could be as simple as being able to bend. They don't necessarily have to have anything material, like a giant palace.
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dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jul 25, 2010 21:15:05 GMT -5
dirtyyasuki: I just don't like how they have to all be benders. Maybe that just bugs me because it's a form of discrimination, but I would hope that Aang would be more considerate, especially because Sokka is a non-bender, and they're good friends. Well, they (the senate of RC/ruling class) don't have to be all benders, and they don't have to be all bad. Just a percentage of them would be enough to give the rest a bad rep. And as far as discrimination goes, there's already implications that discrimination will exist in the series in the form of an "anti-bender revolt". The first word implies that people are discriminating against benders, and the second word implies that somehow benders are in a position of power or influence and the people who are revolting against them want them ousted from said positions. (usually because both parties are in opposition to one another and one has greater power while the other does not) The reason why I posited that benders would comprise most of the ruling class in any form of major government in the Avatar's world is because, we know that the current nations/civilizations were founded on benders and bending. Anyone who can contribute more in a physical sense to their respective society would have more influence in said society, how much more for people who can warp the elements themselves to benefit their people? I'm not saying Aang is to blame or even anyone member of the Gaang for the current conditions of RC, but they could definitely have had a hand in setting the conditions in place for them and their descendants just inherited it even if they didn't intend for things to get that bad. Like I said, even the best intentions have unforeseen negative consequences. Another Theory: If some of the Gaang were involved somehow with the conditions in RC then that might explain why Tenzin and Korra are training there. Tenzin might know who's responsible or how the troubles started in RC and now he somehow feels responsible for it and needs the Avatar's help to restore balance. No matter what kind of technology they have, they still can't wield elements. People get jealous for even more ridiculous things, like Katara over Aang's quick learning/mastering of waterbending. Besides, what benders have could be as simple as being able to bend. They don't necessarily have to have anything material, like a giant palace. That's true. Benders don't have to have a giant palace to make non-benders jealous, and that's what I'm getting at. It's possible that non-benders who were envious of benders wanted to emulate their powers or even surpass their abilities with the more egalitarian and less hereditary dependent wonders of science and steam-tech. Non-benders (regardless of nationality) with the use of steam-tech and science can have and do whatever benders can in just different ways. Steam-powered machines can move the elements just as well as any earthbender or waterbender. Steam-powered weapons can be just as dangerous or destructive as any firebender. And Steam-flying machines can give ordinary man dominance of the skies when before until 70 years ago flying was only seen as the province of Air nomads. So I don't see physical power or the ability to bend the elements as what steam-powered non-benders are so envious about. I think it's the power and influence in society that comes with being a bender that non-benders want. Mayhaps more equal rights or representation that benders enjoyed more from centuries old traditions that they've inherited over others since their civilizations were founded on their abilities. While science and steam-tech can give non-benders unprecedented abilities on par with benders it doesn't mean they earn the same amount of respect or influence in the world of Avatar where bending was the defining focal point of entire societies. Benders could see this new upstart steam-tech loving class of people as a threat to the power and privilege they enjoy, because they can surpass them in ways an ordinary man can given enough time, knowledge and preparation. Some benders may not want to share power and privilege with others they feel weren't born into it or didn't earn it the same way those who followed more traditional methods did. Some benders (who have connections to the spirit world) can even see steam-tech as not being favored or handed down by the spirits and thus not natural and has no place in society or the Avatar's world in general. From these possibilities I can see oppression, discrimination, corruption and classism emerge as providing the central conflict in LoK. If I was a non-bending steam-techie and I had to kowtow or be subservient to benders who has it easier than me because of centuries old traditions and a class system that favors benders even though with a little science and elbow-grease I can equal or even surpass the benders themselves, I would resent that sort of treatment and want a revolt to change society. Another theory: It's possible that the anti-bender revolt may have come about from a group of people who wrongly/rightfully believe that bending is a danger or a form of threat to society. (Like the anti-mutant movement in X-men) If some non-benders believe that the world was plunged into 100 years war because of the arrogance of benders and abuse of their powers, it's plausible. That's another angle to consider aside from "Class-conflict between benders oppressing steam-tech loving non-benders theory". And non-benders could be seen as using steam-tech to put them on equal footing with the benders in an arms race to protect themselves. Liking all the theorizing so far. Meanwhile, I'm wondering if the Order of the White Lotus could have had a hand in founding the city, sounds right up their alley... but then again, considering they were a secret society, I wonder if they're still secret? The world, after ATLA ended, may be what they wanted it to be, potentially, but I'm sure they're wise enough to know it may not work out ideally, so it may be best to remain hidden. (And did they ever say when the society was founded? Was it not until Sozin started the war, or was it long before that?) I've always liked the OWL, so I hope they're a part of the new series, whether openly or behind the scenes (though I also wonder if even they might become corrupted into some kind of shadow conspiracy like the Illuminati or something). I would definitely want to see the OotWL make an appearance in the new series in some way. Anywhere between being allies of the Avatar or... being the villains of the series! (this one I would definitely want to see as an interesting twist ;D) Also, the whole steam punk thing... it puts me in mind of how the different nations always seemed to me to be at different levels of technical advancement, and obviously the FN was always the most advanced... in fact they were somewhat steam punk even in the original series, so it could be that in trying to modernize the rest of the world, it's just a new spin on the old theme... we've already seen that Sozin originally thought what he was doing was for the good of the entire world, so it'd be interesting to see if going about the same thing in a different way might... have mixed results, with some people embracing the FN influence, while others still distrust them and the changes they're bringing about. True but people of all nations living in one place (in a Republic no less) where everywhere else is a feudal/communal society and technology flourishes can generate a new class of people in the Avatar's world. One whom we call in real-life as "citizens of the world". People who are globalized, modern and owning greater understanding of their world than is limited by geographical and cultural backgrounds. I would dearly love to see the overall culture of RC and how different it is from the rest of the four nations.
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Post by teknomage on Jul 26, 2010 0:01:10 GMT -5
True but people of all nations living in one place (in a Republic no less) where everywhere else is a feudal/communal society and technology flourishes can generate a new class of people in the Avatar's world. One whom we call in real-life as "citizens of the world". People who are globalized, modern and owning greater understanding of their world than is limited by geographical and cultural backgrounds. I would dearly love to see the overall culture of RC and how different it is from the rest of the four nations. That's a good point, which leads me to wonder how widespread the anti-bender revolt actually is. I mean, is it isolated to RC, or is it going on globally?
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dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jul 26, 2010 0:42:45 GMT -5
That's a good point, which leads me to wonder how widespread the anti-bender revolt actually is. I mean, is it isolated to RC, or is it going on globally? We won't know until the series arrives. But from what I can tell, if a city that represents a cultural melting pot becomes the epicenter of that world, then I think it's safe to assume that a world culture is beginning to emerge and spread slowly but surely to the farthest corners. Edit: Which come to think of it, is what Sozin originally wanted to achieve by his aggressive expansion of the Fire Nation's influence. Imagine the irony if Aang as the Avatar had created a cultural melting pot that became the civilized epicenter of the world that spreads the idea of a unified civilization, and in so doing achieved what generations of Fire Lords tried to do but failed because they were opposed by no less than the Avatar himself.
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Post by Alouncara on Aug 28, 2010 16:23:26 GMT -5
Some places have racism, others there's sexism, but if you pop on over the Avatar Universe you get... Benderism >D
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Sakura
FN Sokka
Sakura. Just Sakura.
Posts: 1,744
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Post by Sakura on Aug 28, 2010 18:54:58 GMT -5
On a further note about the OP's theory: It seems that some of the speculation that the Spirit world might be displayed more in LoK by coming into conflict with the Mortal world is likely. Since if we assume anti-benders are made up of non-benders who have embraced technology and abandoned the old traditional spiritual ways of benders who are spiritual-beings themselves with ties to spirits and the spirit world. You could have benders on one side defending the old ways and their connection to the Spirit world and non-benders on the other hand abandoning the old ways for new science. It's a very interesting concept. THIS. That definately sounds true, and I think that the non-benders not believing might lead to Korra having to deal with the Spirit world a bit more than Aang. Maybe she'll have to fix the relations between the Spirits and non-benders, because the Spirits will probably get angry if people stop believing in them. But you already said all that :I Also, if this theory is true, wouldn't that mean that people have less respect for the Avatar?
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dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Aug 31, 2010 4:20:42 GMT -5
Also, if this theory is true, wouldn't that mean that people have less respect for the Avatar? On the whole yes, I think there will be less respect for the Avatar and his position in LoK. Oh sure, in a world defined and inspired by the tradition loving historical Eastern setting of the real world the tradition of respecting and revering the avatar would not easily be forgotten/ignored by most folk, but in a world that might see itself drawing further away from the spirit world in favor of science and knowledge, it can be all too likely. What's more with an Anti-bender revolt some fanatics might see the Avatar as a representation of the old ways and even regard Korra more as a symbol of oppression and adherence to old outdated ideals. Animosity against the Avatar will certainly rise given enough time if such notions of opposing the Avatar becomes a cultural phenomenon instead of a random fluke of one isolated generation of people. And if not for the Avatar's stature at least any Avatar will always have the respect of fear from his subjects and enemies by dint of his raw power and command over the elements alone. Fear is a double edged sword though, as people will either fear you or in the case of people who possess knowledge to oppose you seek your demise.
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