dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jan 7, 2012 0:41:46 GMT -5
If the air pressure surrounding your body suddenly dropped to the point of a vaccum, it would result in massive decompression and depressurization with all it entails with respect to any gases still contained in your body (whether in your lungs or dissolved in your blood). True. Exposure to hard vacuum would result in rapid decompression/depressurization similar to the DCS. However, massive decompression or decompression sickness is not the main concern of anyone exposed to hard vacuum. Hypoxia or lack of oxygen is the main enemy. ref. here, here, and hereTV Tropes even has a short explanation on it.Simply saying while massive decompression is a concern for anyone exposed to hard vacuum (instantaneous or gradually), it's not what will likely kill you. Hypoxia and rapid oxygen loss will kill you in 90 seconds first. Your blood vessels won't explode, your blood won't boil (although the same can't be said of your saliva), and you won't turn into a balloon and explode yourself. Death from a deadly build-up of gases won't kill you when oxygen loss can do it faster. Creating a hard vacuum at normal atmospheric levels where humans have been accustomed to exist would require a master or very powerful airbender because counteracting the forces and normal atmospheric physics necessary for such conditions to be generated would not be instantaneous I suspect no matter how powerful you are a bender. So any exposure to said area of massive negative pressure would kill people gradually (90 seconds to be exact). Loss of consciousness occurring within 15 seconds would ensure an exposed persons fate before they actually died. Still you have to ensure your target wouldn't be able to escape the killzone somehow which adds more complexity to an already tricky (if dramatic) way to kill someone.
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
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Post by asian malaysian on Jan 8, 2012 19:23:31 GMT -5
^^ I guess its debateble but heres a quote from one of your links on vacuum: "Rapid decompression can be much more dangerous than vacuum exposure itself. Even if the victim does not hold his or her breath, venting through the windpipe may be too slow to prevent the fatal rupture of the delicate alveoli of the lungs.[52] Eardrums and sinuses may be ruptured by rapid decompression, soft tissues may bruise and seep blood, and the stress of shock will accelerate oxygen consumption leading to hypoxia.[54] Injuries caused by rapid decompression are called barotrauma. A pressure drop of 13 kPa (100 Torr), which produces no symptoms if it is gradual, may be fatal if it occurs suddenly.[52] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum#Effects_on_humans_and_animals
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dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jan 15, 2012 4:38:03 GMT -5
^^ I guess its debateble but heres a quote from one of your links on vacuum: "Rapid decompression can be much more dangerous than vacuum exposure itself. Even if the victim does not hold his or her breath, venting through the windpipe may be too slow to prevent the fatal rupture of the delicate alveoli of the lungs.[52] Eardrums and sinuses may be ruptured by rapid decompression, soft tissues may bruise and seep blood, and the stress of shock will accelerate oxygen consumption leading to hypoxia.[54] Injuries caused by rapid decompression are called barotrauma. A pressure drop of 13 kPa (100 Torr), which produces no symptoms if it is gradual, may be fatal if it occurs suddenly.[52] en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vacuum#Effects_on_humans_and_animalsYes, but all the sites I linked agree that as far as expert findings have found, Rapid Decompression (while certainly a concern to anyone exposed) is not the main concern or cause of death when a person is exposed to hard vacuum.
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avatarluv
Jet
You don't like my singing?
Posts: 361
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Post by avatarluv on Jan 19, 2012 14:58:57 GMT -5
Heh, when I posted the question, I didn't expect it to turn into a scientific debate. As for the bending, I suppose it would make sense that Korra wouldn't be able to bloodbend. I forgot about the time limitations for it for some reason... As for the metalbending, if she doesn't know it from the start, maybe she'll learn it in Republic City? And I certainly hope she knows how to heal...although Aang didn't learn...but he wasn't a born waterbender... Interesting that this is my 333 post...
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Post by kaangluv on Jan 19, 2012 18:50:21 GMT -5
Well, I don't know. From what we've seen of Katara's relationship with Korra, she might end up learning bloodbending after all. Just a note on the vacuum debate: I remember an example involving violent decompression in the sub-marine chamber of a deep-sea oil rig...one crew member was literally extruded through portholes and hatches because of gas expansion. They found bits of him all over the rig. At least it was quick. I think depending on the rapidity of pressure loss, explosion would be quicker than hypoxia. Hey, maybe you could bloodbend someone's fluids to vaporize and...poof! Fun times. I guess we won't know for sure until Korra tries it! EDIT: I found the relevant Wikipedia article - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byford_Dolphin
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dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jan 21, 2012 12:58:26 GMT -5
@ avatarluv: Sorry for derailing your thread. I'm a science nut. Just a note on the vacuum debate: I remember an example involving violent decompression in the sub-marine chamber of a deep-sea oil rig...one crew member was literally extruded through portholes and hatches because of gas expansion. They found bits of him all over the rig. At least it was quick. I think depending on the rapidity of pressure loss, explosion would be quicker than hypoxia. Hey, maybe you could bloodbend someone's fluids to vaporize and...poof! Fun times. I guess we won't know for sure until Korra tries it! EDIT: I found the relevant Wikipedia article - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Byford_DolphinThe example of decompression that you use is not similar to a decompression within a "vacuum". You're using an example of a submarine which is under water in an incredibly high atmospheric pressure environment (roughly 5000lbs/sq. inch at 5000 ft or more the deeper you go) as reference for the effects of decompression in outer space/vacuum where there is no atmospheric pressure. Not the same as the supposed effects of the fabled Airbending "vacuum" vortex which is supposed to lower the atmospheric pressure around the victim until they die from suffocation from their lungs not being able to expand to fill in with oxygen. Vacuum as has been discussed in this thread and referenced has no such pressures involved. The idea of someone rapidly dying by explosive decompression/implosion when suddenly exposed to hard vacuum are all purported Hollywood exaggerations. Exposure to intense atmospheric pressure like under the ocean would cause implosion (if you depressurized slowly like a diver in a pressurized diving suit) or explosive decompression (if you depressurized rapidly like a submarine at depth) To be clear: Death from Vacuum exposure is just not as dramatic as Hollywood makes it to be and certainly not as accurate as the science claims which should be no surprise.
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Post by kaangluv on Jan 21, 2012 15:47:24 GMT -5
Really interesting stuff - I'm glad you've got it all sorted out!
I imagine that if an airbender were capable of creating an instantaneous void, s/he might also be able to generate a pressure disparity such as the one I mentioned (maybe if two airbenders were fighting, one creating a defensive pressurized bubble and the other attacking with external pressure). Or one airbender could just apply enormous positive pressure to another person and crush him like a tin can.
And mightn't the normal atmospheric pressure account for a disparity when you're attacking someone within a particular 'boundary' of negative pressure? You couldn't turn the whole atmosphere into a vacuum....
I think. XD I trust you'll correct me if I'm wrong.
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
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Post by asian malaysian on Jan 21, 2012 17:40:22 GMT -5
The example of decompression that you use is not similar to a decompression within a "vacuum". You're using an example of a submarine which is under water in an incredibly high atmospheric pressure environment (roughly 5000lbs/sq. inch at 5000 ft or more the deeper you go) as reference for the effects of decompression in outer space/vacuum where there is no atmospheric pressure. Not the same as the supposed effects of the fabled Airbending "vacuum" vortex which is supposed to lower the atmospheric pressure around the victim until they die from suffocation from their lungs not being able to expand to fill in with oxygen. Um just where were the tennets of the fabled Airbending vacuum agreed upon? If the drop from atmospheric pressure to vacuum was violently fast enough, theres no reason why the effects of the rapid decompression (while perhaps not as dramatic as fiction suggest) would cause similar fatal injuries. As you acknowledged, the website links you provided describe these potential fatal injuries. Even accepting for the sake of argument your contention that oxygen loss would kill you first and faster does not neccesarily accepting that those fatal injuries would not occur. My contention would be that if the period of the vaccum was too brief to suffocate a person, he may still succumb later from the injuries sustained as a result of the rapid decompression.
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dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jan 22, 2012 10:02:08 GMT -5
Um just where were the tennets of the fabled Airbending vacuum agreed upon? Granted that was my own interpretation of the only supposed example of the technique as others theorized from the scene of Monk Gyatso's resting place but it's one shared by others on the internet. tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/WMG/AvatarTheLastAirbender (the description is somewhere in the middle under Monk Gyatso and his "crowning moment of awesome") Unfortunately I don't have a picture of the death scene but if you can remember the remains of the Fire nation soldiers surrounding Monk Gyatso's remains they were all remarkably intact in over the 100 years they were left unburied and open to exposure. The pose of the bodies appeared as if they were laid out and fell asleep on the floor. Even Monk Gyatso seemed to lie back in repose. Those did not look like the remains of people who died violent deaths due to "sudden decompression" in a vacuum. If the drop from atmospheric pressure to vacuum was violently fast enough, theres no reason why the effects of the rapid decompression (while perhaps not as dramatic as fiction suggest) would cause similar fatal injuries. As you acknowledged, the website links you provided describe these potential fatal injuries. Even accepting for the sake of argument your contention that oxygen loss would kill you first and faster does not neccesarily accepting that those fatal injuries would not occur. My contention would be that if the period of the vaccum was too brief to suffocate a person, he may still succumb later from the injuries sustained as a result of the rapid decompression. Thing is, it's not merely my contention. It's the contention of other scientists who've studied the effects of decompression in a vacuum. Yes your contention is true under certain circumstances. The barotrauma (physical injuries caused by rapid decompression) would result in increased oxygen consumption/loss which would lead to hypoxia and create the fatal result that I pointed out. The barotrauma by itself wouldn't cause sufficient enough damage to kill a person. However "explosive" decompression is the fatal injury of which your lungs would explode inside of you... the rest of you would be intact though just as unhappy. This would result from rapid decompression and the victim holding their breath. These two factors are what would lead to severe enough injuries that a person would die from rapid decompression in a vacuum. Although if the person had the presence of mind they would still have a short amount of time to exhale all the air in their lungs and prevent their lungs from exploding. Although it maybe possible that someone may be too slow to exhale the air in their lungs as mentioned in one of the links I posted, in that one instance yeah "hypoxia" would be late to deaths door. I believe these were the conditions you were referring to? symptoms noted: barotrauma causing bleeding from orifices and veins to pop: check convulsions and paralysis: check attempt to exhale all air in the lungs to avoid "explosive" decompression: check rapid hypoxia: implied but since Justin had no air to breathe in space after exhaling all the air in his lungs that went without saying. But we've digressed too much from the thread already. For that I must apologize. I do believe the main contention was what effects Airbending a vacuum of the air pressure inside a room would look like in the Avatar universe. Well I believe our closest but unconfirmed example would be Monk Gyatso's death. As far as I believe he died along with those Fire Nation soldiers by bending the air out of that hut creating an area of low pressure such that anyone trapped inside suffocated and died and likely not from their lungs exploding. But if you have a different interpretation of that particular scene, then I'm willing to agree to disagree.
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Gwendolyn
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Post by Gwendolyn on Jan 23, 2012 2:22:15 GMT -5
A real question, I think, would be: could an airbender do that? From what I can tell, all a bender does is move objects with some sort of spiritual "power" in combination of physical strength. They have to become physically capable to move those objects. You'd have to remove air incredibly quickly to even create a vacuum before air from somewhere else replaces it, not even taking into account the strength required to remove all matter from a certain space.
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dirtyyasuki
Iroh
Take it to the limit... then break it.
Posts: 199
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Post by dirtyyasuki on Jan 23, 2012 8:21:09 GMT -5
A real question, I think, would be: could an airbender do that? From what I can tell, all a bender does is move objects with some sort of spiritual "power" in combination of physical strength. They have to become physically capable to move those objects. You'd have to remove air incredibly quickly to even create a vacuum before air from somewhere else replaces it, not even taking into account the strength required to remove all matter from a certain space. Exactly. That was one of my speculations in an earlier post in this thread. Creating those forces at normal atmospheric pressure level for human beings to exist would be remarkably difficult in an open area (it maybe why Monk Gyatso chose to lure those FN soldiers to a small hut). Even then the technique itself even if it could be done would be very difficult to produce but not impossible I believe. Airbenders can create vortices/tornado's from what we've seen. And Monk Gyatso did go down fighting which is uncharacteristic for an Air Nomad who are supposedly pacifists and have non-lethal bending techniques. But if ethics weren't a consideration, and the Airbender was a talented and experienced master, then yes it might be possible.
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Post by teenj12 on Mar 17, 2012 3:17:05 GMT -5
The actual unofficial sub art for Airbending is Soundbending. Aang performs this multiple imes with Appa's whistle.
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Post by Musogato on Mar 18, 2012 18:23:05 GMT -5
Soundbending would be really neat, but I thought Appa's whistle worked like a dog whistle. Even Sokka uses it at one point to call Appa during that second Omashu City episode, I think.
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
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Post by asian malaysian on Mar 22, 2012 3:48:16 GMT -5
The actual unofficial sub art for Airbending is Soundbending. Aang performs this multiple imes with Appa's whistle. Quite an inventive idea but soundwaves travels through water and earth as well. Toph's mastery of reading soundwaves comes to mind although I do understand that you mean more in terms of creating soundwaves. Still, a very imaginative and original idea!
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avatarluv
Jet
You don't like my singing?
Posts: 361
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Post by avatarluv on May 4, 2012 23:08:06 GMT -5
With the next episode, we may see whether or not Korra knows how the heal with waterbending. After all, Bolin got injured and that may be a chance for her to show what she knows.
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