artemishoney
Zuko
Evil is a poison that infects a lonley heart; but poison can be extracted by those who see beyond it
Posts: 106
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Post by artemishoney on Dec 19, 2006 17:40:24 GMT -5
I think i'm too tired at this point to give your post a proper reply, so I apologize in advance. I wasn't intending to say the Yui and La were representations of Zuko and Katara. I personally don't look at Zuko immediatly attempting to right his "wrong" in the finale as backtracking or remaking his decision. I think it's in truth building upon it. What he did in the finale was just the first step in his crossroads. This I totally agree with. Which is why i never say that what I am arguing is inevitable or plainly obvious to happen; because i simply do not know the outcome. And when I said that Zuko was developed to oppose the fire nation, I didn't mean it the way in which you interpreted it. I hate it when I don't put down everything i mean to say But oh well, I mean that he is in oppostion to the direction the fire nation is going in. As evident from all his flashbacks, he has never been secure with the overall ruling that resides in his nation. I believe that Zuko is destined to become firelord and to rule the nation and much more respectable manner. I think for me, the main reason why i don't see him traveling with Azula for very long at all is because, as the creators have said, Zuko is going to be searching for his mother. Now he might, be able to successfully do that behind azula's back, but i dont' think that's possible with her craftiness. Zuko, I believe, will ultimately have to force himself to realize that his father is not the love and respect he's looking for or needs. And he will search for his mother. And jsut to clarify, I don't think Zuko and Katara are going to fall madly in love. What i'm expecting is for that door to be clearly opened and presented by the end. When it comes to overanalysis, I think we all hit that point when analyzing any piece of work. then we often take a few steps back and realize we've gone too far. Like when editing a piece of work we've written; it's easy to over edit.
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Post by The Crystal [Hope] Catacombs on Dec 19, 2006 19:35:48 GMT -5
Kataang: Too many to mention. But she has saved his life a lot. And he clearly loves her.
Zutara: ("I thought you had changed!" -Katara "I have changed." -Zuko) Could that be a sign? Plus, they seemed to really bond in that finale episode... until he decided to go insane.
Maiko: The flashbacks seem to pair them together. However, if you think about it, as far as we know, they haven't come in contact at all since he left the Fire Nation.
Soph (or Tokka?): She kissed Suki's cheek, thinking it was Sokka. She feels unappreciated by him. Suki may be dead. And did you see the way she held onto his arm while they were on their way back into the city?
Zujin and Sukka: Um, they kissed. Can't get much more foreshadowed than that.
Taang: In the blind bandit, when they were going to leave each other, they spoke as if they were really sad. It's like when Sokka said goodbye to Yue. (YUE R.I.P.)
Tylokka: How much more obvious could Ty Lee be? Although, I don't think Sokka would choose her over Suki or Toph. Even though they'd be wicked cute together.
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Post by Gotterdammerung on Dec 19, 2006 20:09:24 GMT -5
I'm going to have to continue to disagree there. It was a step in his journey, but you don't have multiple steps in a crossroads. You choose a direction. A huge part of the fandom feels like he chose the wrong direction and is waiting for him to "correct" this and there's no way for him to do that without going back on the choice he already made, which I maintain would be undermining the dramatic impact of everything that happened with him in the finale.
OH, then we're in total agreement there. I just don't think that he'd ever have been able to achieve that (or will be able to acheive it) in a believable and logical manner if he joins/joined up with Aang and taught him firebending and assisted him in his attempts to conquer the Fire Nation. Because their plan to invade with earthbending armies on the day of black sun? That's in the interest of conquering, not in the interest of making peace. Making peace, I think, can only happen when you have someone in a position of power in the Fire Nation to order the Fire Nation to stop. That person's clearly Zuko and to serve that role he can't be a fugitive from his nation anymore. He has to be in good standing.
I agree again that realizing that he'll never have his father's respect and/or approval and that it's not something he needs is going to be an important part of Zuko's journey. However, I have to pose the question: why would Zuko looking for their mother be something that he would need to hide from Azula? What logical reason would she have to oppose that if that's what he wanted to do?
It's heavily implied that Ursa killed Azulon in order to protect Zuko. Azula was wishing death on Azulon long before then and Azulon's death put Ozai in power. Why exactly Ursa left is a bit mysterious, but there's not really anything to support the idea that Azula and Ozai like hate her and want her to stay gone. By all appearances, she did them a huge favor.
So, I just don't see Zuko looking for his mom and Zuko still being relatively in the Fire Nation's good graces as mutually exclusive things.
However, I do find the idea of Mai and Ty Lee having drastically increased roles in season three as something that needs to be facilitated by Zuko's presence in their section of the story because they're secondary characters and it's not terribly likely that we'd get much on them on their own. Of course, there's always the possibility that they go with him when he splits from Azula. I've certainly been speccing that about Mai since Day One so...who knows?
Anyway, no worries about being tired. Your response was more than adequate!
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artemishoney
Zuko
Evil is a poison that infects a lonley heart; but poison can be extracted by those who see beyond it
Posts: 106
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Post by artemishoney on Dec 19, 2006 20:49:45 GMT -5
I Guess to me, no matter what, the dramatic impact couldn't be lost either way. It'd be dramatic if he stayed with his decision and dramatic if he had to live with the mistake of his decision and rise to over come it. In both cases, his decision has an everlasting effect.
Well, Azula clearly never respected her mother and from what we've seen, she has manipulated her mother to get what she wanted; just as she manipulates everyone else. I think Azula would view Zuko trying to find their mom as a somewhat traitorous or disrespectful act toward herself. Azula, I believe, has very little concern for the fire nation, but holds great value in the power it holds. All this girl wants is power. As far as we know. So, I doubt she'd just sit back and let Zuko find Ursa. Azula clearly viewed their mother as obstacle on her road to succession.
And just to clarify, I never thought or wanted Zuko to join the Gaang or teach Aang firebending. I always believed that was too much to ask. Though, I thought there may be a posibility that Iroh could teach Aang. But, what i did originally predict was that the Gaang would split eventually, and I still think that that is going happen in season 3. And if that does happen, I believe it will open doors for Zuko to join an old Gaang member.
I'm also willing to accept the possibility that Zuko will be betraying Azula under her nose in the next season. He may stay with her for a while, but use his position as a way to bring her down with some sort of contact outside of firenation power.
Anyway, this conversation has delved greatly into the realm of theory and not ship foreshadowing. But the ships we've discussed often go hand in hand with theories of plot and story.
This will most likely be my last post of the night. I have to study for a french exam and finish a japanese film study paper tonight ... so procrastinating has definately gotten in the way of that.
Though our conversation seemed a bit heated at first, we pursued it and I think we came to a better understanding. So thanks for the worth while debate.
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nandireya
Zuko's Path to Redemption Mod
...tickled pink...
Posts: 6,822
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Post by nandireya on Dec 19, 2006 21:29:49 GMT -5
...I thought she was being ironic. So did I... Really? *shrugs* Like I said...I'm not a shipper...I don't look for hidden meanings...but I still think it was very well thought out...
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gambitia
Fiery Ozai
millions have trembled before my pink armor!
Posts: 5,894
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Post by gambitia on Dec 19, 2006 22:48:14 GMT -5
...I thought she was being ironic. I thought I was too. Not to say that I don't believe that stuff, but I know that it's hardly real foreshadowing... and, ZOMG rawles/Gotter!! I've been stalking your LJDefine "bad."
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artemishoney
Zuko
Evil is a poison that infects a lonley heart; but poison can be extracted by those who see beyond it
Posts: 106
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Post by artemishoney on Dec 19, 2006 23:04:28 GMT -5
gambitia: If Zuko actually truly WANTED to aid Azula in her ambitions and didn't attempt to bring her down; when Zuko has always distrusted her and he knows Azula would never give up her chance to sit on the throne. She is the second foremost reason for his inner turmoil, and associates her with the loss of his mother. Through his character development, this has been proven to us. I just barely believe his actions at the end of the season two finale; ultimately Zoku was still at the point where he wanted his father's accpetance more than anything. But for him, to willingly aid Azula, without any attmept at redemption ... that's what i say is "bad" character development. It goes completely against the grain of his character. But I think Mike and Bryan have a lot more up their sleeve, because their character development has been outstanding for this show. It's the main reason why i became interested in ATLA in the first place.
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Post by waterfire (I am back!!!) on Dec 20, 2006 22:28:27 GMT -5
Yin and Yang gives you any hints?
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Post by skyblue0291 on Dec 22, 2006 17:43:54 GMT -5
i have noticed that there has been alot of zutara foreshadowing. i feel that kataang may not happen even though it does have a good chance, because it is too open. plus that fact that aang cant go into the avatar state if he loves katara, or anyone in particular, so he had to give her up. i think that zutara has a fighting chance! there has been alot of hints and alot of encounters, including the season finale. it could involve a love hate relationship that might develope into a deep relationship. once zuko realises his mistake...or if his plan fails (if he has a plan that is) then he would most definately want to free his uncle. whether he joins the gaang or not, though i hope he does, depends on what choices he makes. if he does join the gaang, then he would want to appologise to katara especially for betraying her. she may or may not aceept it at first, but will soon realise that he is truly sorry. from there a bond/friendship would develope. chanes are that he will eventually join the gaang. (breathes)
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Power
Fire Lord Zuko
Kataangian Elite. Air/Water Warrior
Toph and Sokka. Every day they get closer to each other.
Posts: 8,513
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Post by Power on Dec 22, 2006 18:04:25 GMT -5
i have noticed that there has been alot of zutara foreshadowing. i feel that kataang may not happen even though it does have a good chance, because it is too open. plus that fact that aang cant go into the avatar state if he loves katara, or anyone in particular, so he had to give her up. i think that zutara has a fighting chance! there has been alot of hints and alot of encounters, including the season finale. it could involve a love hate relationship that might develope into a deep relationship. once zuko realises his mistake...or if his plan fails (if he has a plan that is) then he would most definately want to free his uncle. whether he joins the gaang or not, though i hope he does, depends on what choices he makes. if he does join the gaang, then he would want to appologise to katara especially for betraying her. she may or may not aceept it at first, but will soon realise that he is truly sorry. from there a bond/friendship would develope. chanes are that he will eventually join the gaang. (breathes) Now let me decipher this, not all relationhips have to be behind *Close Doors* i.e. Kataang, there have only been a few direct encounter between Zuko and Katara ever since the series began. Zuko has chosen his own destiny now, only that he has chosen the harder route, We dont know if Aang fully gave up Katara to the Avatar State, since he was interrupted by Azula's nearly fatal strike, we dont know if he will attempt it again certainly not against her ( there goes the end of * gain full power and destroy oppsition quickly theory*) certainly he will find another way. Seeing how Aang was nearly killed and its something Katara will NOT be taking lightly, Zuko has a lot of uphill paddling to do, to seek forgiveness
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gambitia
Fiery Ozai
millions have trembled before my pink armor!
Posts: 5,894
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Post by gambitia on Dec 22, 2006 21:33:59 GMT -5
gambitia: If Zuko actually truly WANTED to aid Azula in her ambitions and didn't attempt to bring her down; when Zuko has always distrusted her and he knows Azula would never give up her chance to sit on the throne. She is the second foremost reason for his inner turmoil, and associates her with the loss of his mother. Through his character development, this has been proven to us. I just barely believe his actions at the end of the season two finale; ultimately Zoku was still at the point where he wanted his father's accpetance more than anything. But for him, to willingly aid Azula, without any attmept at redemption ... that's what i say is "bad" character development. It goes completely against the grain of his character. I would suggest you go read rawle's post on LJ about this, as she summed it up better than I ever could. But it was more in-character for Zuko than joining Aang would have been. Zuko's only desire throughout the entire show has been to go home. Joining Aang doesn't allow him to do that. When Azula dangled that oppurtunity right in front of him and told him that Ozai would welcome his back with open arms and that his honor was restored, there was no way Zuko couldn't refuse. At the most basic level, Zuko is a naive idiot.
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Post by waterfire (I am back!!!) on Dec 22, 2006 21:56:46 GMT -5
I just have a werid feeling that Zutara is getting all of the attention for some reason.
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Melis
Long Feng
hay baby wanna get away on my bison?
Posts: 3,293
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Post by Melis on Dec 22, 2006 22:22:30 GMT -5
"Letting go" of Katara doesn't mean "letting go of his feelings for her". The Guru was talking about letting go of his attachments, and one of these things was Katara. It doesn't mean that he has to let go of his feelings persay, but that he has to place his duty as the Avatar first. When you love someone you never stop loving them no matter what, you can't just let go of them just like that. Feelings aren't clothes you can throw away and then buy a new one the next day.
To be honest, I don't see any Zutarian foreshadowing whatsoever. The Yin and Yang isn't foreshadowing, it was talking about the spirits, Tui and La, and everything else. The only foreshadowing I can see from the Yin and Yang theory is Aang and Zuko balancing themselves.
Again, I don't really see the hints. Heck, I'm a multi-shipper and I still don't see it. No offense to you guys of course, I guess it all goes down to that Zutarians see differently from Kataangers. As for their encounters, most of them dealt with Aang in one way or the other.
As for the season finale: I think there's a pretty good reason the creators decided for Zuko and Katara to interact like that, but I doubt it's for romantic reasons.
But that's the thing, if they were going to develop their relationship like that then shouldn't the creators have spent more time with Zuko and Katara interacting throughout both seasons? I'm not talking about the interactions they had before, because they can't compare to the interactions Aang and Katara had in both seasons.
That's why I think Kataang has more canon evidence than Zutara. They had two whole seasons to develop their relationship, while Zuko and Katara interacted here and there, and thought of each other as the enemy. The second season finale was changing that via Cave of Zutara Happy Hour, but then Zuko screwed it up for himself when he joined Azula and was indirectly responsible for nearly killing Aang. I doubt Katara will want to be in a relationship with a guy who almost killed her best friend.
I think Zuzu's already realising the mistake he's made. Though, I can see Zuko staying with Azula middway, then leaving her when they're/or he's sent off in the Fire Nation and on the run. (If that wanted poster spoiler is true, then he'll most likely figure out the truth and go on the run. With Mai and Ty Lee, maybe?) Then he'll find his Momma, and they'll have a Motherly/Sonerly moment. If Zuzu does join the Gaang (which I highly doubt, because Avatar has always told Aang and Zuko's stories apart. At least, that's how I saw it) then I can see a lot of tension going on between him and every one in the Gaang. I do agree that he'll try somehow to say that he was sorry to Katara in some way or form, but I doubt she'll accept his apology. That girl holds grudges, just look at Jet. Even in the end she didn't forgive him, maybe felt sympathy for him but that was it.
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Post by bluespiritzuko on Feb 20, 2007 10:49:09 GMT -5
ZUTARA is the only ship with forshadowing the crown, the hearts, random things Zutara lives!!
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Post by fireprincessgiorgi on Apr 25, 2007 16:12:07 GMT -5
Zutara will happen because:
1.) The creators seem to like the whole yin yang, opposites attract thing, and Katara is from the Water Tribe. Zuko is from the Fire Nation. Can't get more opposite than that.
2.) They bonded a lot in the season 2 finale (I know lots of people have pointed this out before). Zuko really opened up to Katara, and if they hadn't been so rudely interrupted by Iroh and Aang they probably would have become friends.
3.) Since Hakoda is the chief of their tribe, Katara is technically a princess. Zuko is a prince. Obviousness.
And the most important reason of all: They look really good together!!!!!!!!!!!!! Although if Katara doesn't get together with him, I will because he's hot!
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