artemishoney
Zuko
Evil is a poison that infects a lonley heart; but poison can be extracted by those who see beyond it
Posts: 106
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Post by artemishoney on Dec 19, 2006 12:52:26 GMT -5
That's obviously where you and I disagree. IMO, Most Zuko/Katara arguments actually hold a deeper textual understanding of the show.
Well, of course they don't say outright. "Hey, this scene, it's about Zuko and Katara getting together." What you you mentioned about Tui and La are the MAIN goals of the episode. But in most literature and screenplays, it is moments like in the spirit oasis that will later infer to elements of the story that are revealed and acted out later. Nobody tries to make the themes solely about Zutara. I and most know the importance these themes have for every character in show: they refer to Aang, sokka, toph, iroh, ect. Though, I think to say that the Tui and La has NOTHING to do with anyone's relatioship is a stretch. It serves as a symbol for all the characters and there relatioships in the show.
Well, exactly. It's a cute story that resembles romeo+juliet. Romeo did kill Juliet's cousin, and Juliet was still willing to die for Romeo. And, yeah, to teach about trusting in love. Mike and Bryan didn't say that it was about Katara and Aang having a relationship in the future. Mike and Bryan have been in the entertainment business for a while and know how to play it cool. They wouldn't say anything that might give away a huge story development in the future. And, personally, if I was stuck in a cave with a very close friend and we thought kissing was the way out. Well, I would do it. Especially if it was my first kiss, I porbably would blush like hell and reflect upon it later. Of course, they never showed the two kissing. And since the animators have not hesitated in the past to show people kissing, why would they hide it in that episode.
And in terms of the finale, I tried to avoid discussing this in this thread. But I think i'll add my two cents. Their interaction was not just 3 seconds of sympathy on Katara's part. If I remember correctly, it was Zuko who first offered any sympathy. then it turned into a mutual understanding. Katara saw a glimmer of something hopeful in Zuko; and yeah that glimmer is now clouded by the events at the end. It also may seem that Zuko is remorseless; but that seems true only if Zuko remains a part of AZula's team. I think Zuko has a lot of remorse and he soon will have to feel the full weight of it. But the finale is not just as simple as Zuko betrayed everyone. There is so much more going on in that finale and so much more that is going to happen as a result. I'm expecting the beginning of season 3 to be pretty heavy. I have discussed the finale in so many threads and there are alot of interesting ideas.
Yeah, I was shocked as well that Mike and Bryan did what they did. But I have faith in their storytelling abilities and if they don't put Zuko on his road of redemption soon, then they pretty much wasted alot of valuable and complex character development on Zuko.
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Post by stinkypinky on Dec 19, 2006 12:58:48 GMT -5
Great, a well-thought out and rational post made by one of my 'enemies'. I always try to hold back, but when I see a rational post I don't agree with, I can't help myself but to reply. Now, like I illustrated in my last post, let us cross blades like gentlemen do (or in your case, ladies). Be warned though, lower your guard and I will not hesitate to strike! Right, enough with the silly metahphors... Ahh, but is that a subtext which is universally accepted, or one that requires individual interpretation? I've seen the same scene, and I didn't see no subtexts, no clever disguises for a future relationship. There is a difference between seeing something, and wanting to see something. Whether this applies to me or you, well, I don't know. That's really the general problem I have with what Zutarians consider hints: it requires one to interpret the way they do. A lot of the hints Zutarians seem to see are the ones only apparant to them. Honestly, I've seen things some Zutarians consider hints where I never would have seen anything. But that's the fun of it all. I may see Katara's to Aang's interaction as nothing more but friendship. Of course not everyone will see it the same. Same with how people could interpret Mai smiling at the mention of Zuko's name. People could think it means here's Mai's chance at seeing her crush again, that she may have felings for him still, while others could see it as here's Mai is is going to have a chance of crushing Zuko. Who knows she may like Zuko or maybe she got her heart broken by her crush, it's up to how people see it. Plus we won't really know until season 3. If the creators plan to do something, it will be believeable. Many didn't think Zuko would actually light the park and kiss Jin but he did, why because he wanted to make her happy and he wanted to. Seemed out of character to many but they did it. Many forget that Zuko since the beginning was never evil, he showed time and time again he isn't one of the bad guys. He's just a boy who wants to go home and have his father love him and acknowledge him as his son. He didn't think of the consequences of his decision at first. But then we see how he feels about betraying Iroh and he regrets it. Maybe he may try to redeem himself, maybe he is actually waiting to see his father face to face to Ozai could tell how he sees Zuko. But we already know Zuko isn't going to stick by Azula's side, we know he'll go search for Ursa. Do you see him doing that Azula around? It may seem impossible for Zuko to ever join the gaang, to you and others but others still see it. It's not impossible, maybe improbable now, but not impossible. We've seen Katara have been pretty open about her feelings to others. It was obvious she liked Jet, and still liked him even though she was angry at him, since Toph could tell Katara was lying. It's obvious that Aang and Katara mean a great deal to eachother, but how far Katara is to Aang we don't know, because that is just in her character, she even showed sympathy to Zuko (who sympathized with her first, something that Katara hasn't experience so far in the series, seeing as how she's the one to do so first), her enemy, why? Because that's just her nature to do so.
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Power
Fire Lord Zuko
Kataangian Elite. Air/Water Warrior
Toph and Sokka. Every day they get closer to each other.
Posts: 8,513
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Post by Power on Dec 19, 2006 13:06:57 GMT -5
Well since this is her first time developing possible feelings for a boy who is younger than her, I can see why she is a little quiet about her feelings toward him, while he has pretty much been very vocal about his.
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Post by stinkypinky on Dec 19, 2006 13:13:45 GMT -5
Well since this is her first time developing possible feelings for a boy who is younger than her, I can see why she is a little quiet about her feelings toward him, while he has pretty much been very vocal about his. But then it would seem like she is ashamed for liking Aang in that way. One of main arguments people use is "age is just a number" if she does feel the same for Aang she shouldn't be ashamed of liking him even though he is younger especially since in that time people married between different age groups. It doesn't seem like her character to be ashamed of her feelings.
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Post by spook on Dec 19, 2006 13:18:57 GMT -5
If the creators plan to do something, it will be believeable. Many didn't think Zuko would actually light the park and kiss Jin but he did, why because he wanted to make her happy and he wanted to. Seemed out of character to many but they did it. Many forget that Zuko since the beginning was never evil, he showed time and time again he isn't one of the bad guys. He's just a boy who wants to go home and have his father love him and acknowledge him as his son. He didn't think of the consequences of his decision at first. But then we see how he feels about betraying Iroh and he regrets it. Maybe he may try to redeem himself, maybe he is actually waiting to see his father face to face to Ozai could tell how he sees Zuko. But we already know Zuko isn't going to stick by Azula's side, we know he'll go search for Ursa. Do you see him doing that Azula around? It may seem impossible for Zuko to ever join the gaang, to you and others but others still see it. It's not impossible, maybe improbable now, but not impossible. Well, it's hard to see what Zuko's going to next, he does remain the most unpredictable character of the show. But for him to join the gAang, it would also require the approval of the other members. And, I don't really think they'll be waiting for him with open arms after what he did in the finale... Though you're probably right, improbable might be the better word. She still liked him? I didn't get that notion, she just reacted like any teenage girl would who's feelings have been hurt. The little crush she had on him only served as a form of comical relieve in Lake Laogai, if you ask me. And like I said, with Aang, she might not know her feelings herself. What she felt with Jet was an immediate crush, and it took more then an entire season for Katara to show anything that *could* be interpreted as a romantic interest in Aang. Her relationship with Aang is just much more complex than her relationship with Jet, so it's hard for her (and us) to see what her true feelings are. I'm sure she'll be forced to face her feelings in season three, now that she was so close to losing him. Very true, she sympathizes with everyone who deserves it. Still, her relationship with Aang runs much deeper than mere sympathy. How much deeper, well, we'll just have to wait and find out.
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Power
Fire Lord Zuko
Kataangian Elite. Air/Water Warrior
Toph and Sokka. Every day they get closer to each other.
Posts: 8,513
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Post by Power on Dec 19, 2006 13:20:08 GMT -5
Well since this is her first time developing possible feelings for a boy who is younger than her, I can see why she is a little quiet about her feelings toward him, while he has pretty much been very vocal about his. But then it would seem like she is ashamed for liking Aang in that way. One of main arguments people use is "age is just a number" if she does feel the same for Aang she shouldn't be ashamed of liking him even though he is younger especially since in that time people married between different age groups. It doesn't seem like her character to be ashamed of her feelings. Well she is human, sometimes slight out of character things may happen, seeing how Aang was nearly killed off, and how she was the only block preventing him from falling into the hands of death, we will see just how far her feelings run.
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artemishoney
Zuko
Evil is a poison that infects a lonley heart; but poison can be extracted by those who see beyond it
Posts: 106
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Post by artemishoney on Dec 19, 2006 13:23:32 GMT -5
It's sooooo on, Spook!! (nice and intelligent post, btw) This is all true. But I think it applies to all shippers. We all see what it is we want to see happen and don't always see what we DON"T want to happen. Of course, with Aang, he's so googily eyed over Katara, no one can deny that he has a romantic interest in her. Totally agree with the plottwists becoming believable concept. That's all the more reason why I support Zutara. Because, if the two did get together(and i'm talking after a good hunk of time in season 3) then that would be a plot twist that would be believable given what many have foreshadowed and whatever does happen in season 3. If mike and Bryan do put the two together, i'm sure they will have made many efforts to make it believable to many fans. But TV shows often leave certain fans dissapointed. And in terms of Zuko turning back good; either Zuko had a brain lapse he'll have to make-up for or he has a plan that he'll have to defend like hell. I don't think he's become "bad." they had way too much complex character development for Zuko for him to suddenly be all out bad ... so to me the finale is only beleivable depending on the premiere of book 3. And I never really thought he'd join the gaang. I thought that the gaang would be split up and Zuko would join one part. And now, I still believe that. The guru/love chakra scene I know did not just have to do with familial love. But it was that love that first came to mind. And even if she does represent romantic love to Aang, that doesn't mean that Katara has the same feelings. Well, I didn't say that I though they were father/mother figures. In fact, I've actually never really viewed Iroh as a father figure or Katara as a mother figure. It's exactly what you said, they were people happy to see their friend/family. First, Katara didn't immediately forget about Zuko. When they were leaving, she looked back at him, as if hesitant to leave him there. And, yeah, Aang and Zuko contrasted eachother. But I think once Azula appeared in Zuko's life again, he began to be haunted by the idea that he'll never be free from his past, he may have felt hopeless. Katara offered his some hope in that cave, he wanted his scar healed and just as she was about to attempt it, who comes barging in? Aang. Zuko probably started to resent AAng on more levels now. First, Aang is the one thing he thinks he needs to go home; Aang has always escaped; Aang took away his chance to be rid of his scar; Aang seems loved by infinately more people; and Aang is respectd by many people. Personally if I was Zuko, i'd really hate the kid. (but I don't hate him!! I Love aang!! I do!) I don't think we've seen the end of the Zuko's metamorphisis. Iroh said it'd be a long painful road. Looking at the dream, he does in fact fall victom to the Azula dragon at first. then, he dreams himself as the avatar. I think Zuko's long road has begun and it will become more difficult when he has to earn the trust of the avatar. Well, that's it for now. I have to get to class. P.S. Just so you know, If Kataang does actually happen; i'll probably get all pouty and upset and moody and whatever ... but i'd totally get over it. Cause I mainly watch the show for its Epic story. It's so rare to find an american Kid's show so dynamic.
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Post by Gotterdammerung on Dec 19, 2006 15:04:26 GMT -5
Please don't make the mistake of confusing overanalysis with a deeper understanding of the text because in many instances, the more you reach and contort and stretch to fashion various arcane meanings the farther away you're going from the actual meaning of the text. No...no. Really, seriously, it doesn't. I disagree. There's no reason to believe that Tui and La is symbolic of anyone's particular relationship. The theme of balance embodied by them is a general one relevant to the series as a whole, but as soon as you start trying to apply it to individual characters and their relationships with other individual characters, you're, in all likelihood, taking it somewhere completely unintended by the authorial intent. This actually makes me smile because Bryan is, in fact, a spaz who totally gave major plot developments away before. BUT that is neither here nor there. I've argued about Aang/Katara in The Cave of Two Lovers so many times at this point that the very thought makes my head hurt, so, I won't. Suffice it to say, I've never seen an argument against Katara obviously having some romantic feelings for Aang as presented in that episode that wasn't a spurious rationalization based on faux ambiguity and I don't think I ever will. Zuko didn't betray anyone in the finale. Except maybe Iroh. It's impossible to betray people when you were never on their side in the first place. I wrote a meta essay in my LiveJournal here entitled "Curse Your Sudden But Inevitable Betrayal" about Zuko's actions in the finale and it's mostly a defense of them being in character, but there is also a touch (and much more in the comments) of an issue germaine to the argument you seem to be implying here. Zuko's choice was not a waste of his development as a character and it's not going to be undone. It was the resolution to his season two arc. He chose his side and that is the path on which he'll remain and not only that, but it's the path he has to be on in order to become the Fire Lord like we all know he will be. The conceit in the fandom that he's plotting something or will suddenly realize the error of his ways early in season two and have to redeem himself to the Gaang is wishful thinking in my estimation. He was at the crossroads and he took the one away from Aang and co. He's not going to backtrack. Which I, personally, found deeply relieving as he and Aang are foils and are meant to have parallel, but separate journeys. Merging their journeys would completely throw off the structure of the narrative. I also don't get the conviction that he's not going to stay with the Dangerous Ladies for long. I'd bet money that he'll be with them all for half of the season, at the very least. They'd been building up to that for so long and there's so much to be explored in that situation, there's just no way it's going to get thrown out the window within the first few episodes of season three for no apparent reason. Not to mention that the Zuko Looks for His Mom spoiler in no way precludes him from still being allied with Azula. And to bring this back around to the actual stated topic of the thread. Re: your comments about how people read Mai's smile about Zuko differently, I have to quote something I said on another forum: "I don't like to make absolute statements, but one that I will make is this: Mai still likes Zuko. I'll eat my shoe if she doesn't, because there is just no way they introduced that story element knowing that Mai and Zuko would end up in close proximity for the final season just to drop it before it's ever been addressed." The idea that there's any chance that she doesn't still like him is an example of the projection of ambiguity where it does not actually exist. Which is something this fandom is very good at and is the source of many logically dubious arguments that people make.
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Post by princessmai on Dec 19, 2006 15:24:07 GMT -5
I agree with gotterammerung. Mai still has a thing for Zuko. Some people interpret her little smirk as her being happy to see him because dhe wants to tease him again. I actually think Mai was teased just like Zuko was. Mabye not as much but she was (like the apple thing) And I do think Mai and Zuko have more of a history. When he tried to save her he didn't hesitate or think twice about it. Mabye he was just being nice but later in that show he reminded Azula about the incident when Azula is making fun of him not being able to use the knife.
Zuko: Let's put an apple on your head and see how good my aim is. ( or something like that)
And I also don't think the relationship COULD( as in the future) be one sided. It was when they were children, but everyone knows how boys are when they are that age. ( like someone else said earlier girls=cooties) All we need to do is wait and see what happens. The people who made this show didn't show her crush on him for nothing. And now that Zuko is going to be in close proximity with Mai...
Also with the Katara and Zuko in the cave. Katara was about to use the spirital water on Zuko's scar, but if she had, Aang would have died. I don't know if the writers are going to make her feel any remorse for almost using the water on Zuko, but if they do i think it will push her closer to Aang.
Just my views. Don't hurt me.
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artemishoney
Zuko
Evil is a poison that infects a lonley heart; but poison can be extracted by those who see beyond it
Posts: 106
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Post by artemishoney on Dec 19, 2006 15:43:09 GMT -5
I have a very well developed understanding of overanalysis and understanding a text. My statement about deeper textual understanding may have been a little strong; but your statement that "most Zuko/Katara arguments there seems to be an inherent lack of undersanding of the underlying themes of the show and how they play into the show;" was rather out of left field. If Zutara arguments are inherently misinterpretations or overanalysis, then that's a whole bunch of people you're accusing to not know how to interpret or understand a basic storyline and it's themes. No ... no. Really, seriously, it does. It's a simple symbol, that had specific meaning in the season 1 finale. But has become a motif. It's about understanding conflict. Aang has huge conflict within him, as does Zuko. In terms of the finale, yes Zuko was in character, considering all the the things in the finale and throughout the series that lead up to his betrayal. And being in character, he made a mistake. He let his emotions rule him (as did Aang, which was the Avatar's mistake). His spite towrads aang exists on so many levels and him coming into the cave at the moment Katara was going to attempt to heal Zuko's scar, most likely only made the situation that much worst. In the many ancien and contempary stories I've had to read in my studies; the Zuko-like character in all of them have made huge mistakes at a pivotal point in their stories. And as a result have oft tried to immediately repair the situation. And he did betray more people than just Iroh; Katara obviously felt betrayed, and Aang probably felt betrayed considering he had taken the effort to save him. As you've discussed the cave of two lovers an infinite amount of times; i've discussed the finale more times than I can count, and this simply isn't the thread to discuss it. So, again, let's not discuss it here. this thread is about foredshadowing. And do you know how much effort goes into creating one single 24 minute tv episode? Every single scene must give a character a goal, if a scene does not does have a connecction to the plot or story, it is scrapped. there are reasons for everything that exists in a scene or an episode. Whether it be just to have an umbrella cause it's raining or it's a tool for foreshadowing. Making these shows and writing the stories and plots isn't as basic a process as it may seem. There's obvious basic things, but in a well written scripts there is also many more complex underlying ideas. Zuko has been developed from the beginning to be a huge obstacle for the fire nation to succeed in the war. If Zuko actually aids his sister for an extended amoutn of time, then, yeah, it would be bad character development. Princessmai: Don't worry! no on is going to hurt you ... just some people can often times strongly disagree on something. But it's only because w're so passionate about the show. And yeah, mai obvisoulsy has a crush on Zuko, abd think it will be interesting what happens between Zuko and mai come next season. Yeah, that's true, if she had used the water on Zuko, AAng may have been out of luck. But it is also argued that if Aang had listened to the Guru and stayed to master his chakras ... then things may not have turned out the way they did. But the finale really showcased how much learning all our heros still need to go through. Though they were all at the crossroads of the destinies, they made some rash decisions based too much off of high emotions.
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Post by princessmai on Dec 19, 2006 15:52:15 GMT -5
Yeah, they did.
I wonder how they are going to develop the characters even more in the next season. Mabye Mai will be less Mai-ish. Girls do crazy things for love.... ( even though I think Mai is awesome the way she is)
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artemishoney
Zuko
Evil is a poison that infects a lonley heart; but poison can be extracted by those who see beyond it
Posts: 106
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Post by artemishoney on Dec 19, 2006 15:59:55 GMT -5
Yeah, I really enjoy Mai's character. In some ways, she's like the Sokka equivalent. She's not always very optimistic and is kind of the comic relief for Azula's little group.
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Zidaneski
Yue
I will win in the end.
Posts: 663
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Post by Zidaneski on Dec 19, 2006 16:08:09 GMT -5
Some people take shipping way too seriously. If you really want Aang to be with Katara, fine, be at peace. No one can say that there isn't any Zutara shipping clues if they have seen Bato of the Watertribe. Don't get angry, its just a clue.
I don't think there is any Tyko clues yet but maybe in the next episode. *is hoping*
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Post by princessmai on Dec 19, 2006 16:15:06 GMT -5
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Gotterdammerung
Casual Zuko
sorry. i'm fresh out of the ability to care.
Posts: 969
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Post by Gotterdammerung on Dec 19, 2006 16:56:21 GMT -5
Well, so do I, but I will actually redact my initial statement. I find that most Zuko/Katara arguments I've read are based on overanalysis of the text and tend to go hand-in-hand with the dismissal of other narrative cues and overarching themes. That's been my personal experience. However, I didn't mean to imply that shipping Zuko/Katara indicates an inherent misunderstanding of the text/an inability to understand the text.
I was in a rush and I got my hackles up when I felt you were implying that Zuko/Katara shippers understand the text more deeply or better than other people just because their theories tend to be more complicated.
Yes, they do. Very much so, but I'm arguing against the idea that Tui and La or rather the yin yang idea is somehow code for Zuko and Katara Are in Opposition and As Such They Will Fall in True Love Forever argument that's been circulating around the fandom since Siege of the North aired, not against the idea of conflict and the understanding of same being a theme of the show. It clearly is.
Basically, the argument usually goes:
Zuko/Katara shipper: Tui and La = Zuko and Katara. They are the perfect representation of yin yang and thus all such talk in Siege of the North is foreshadowing their true love. The fact that it reoccurs is proof of that.
Me: Those scenes were immediately about the mythology of waterbending and beyond that about the overarching themes of balance in the show, not about anyone's particular romantic entanglements. The symbolism reoccurs because, again, it's an overarching theme.
So, I apologize for jumping into my counterargument if that's not actually the argument you were making.
Zuko clearly made a decision that was, in many ways, a bad one (it was in many other ways a very good one but I'll leave that for now) and I think that an attempt to repair the damage to his relationship with Iroh is in the cards for early on. Past that, though looking for precedent amongst other literature is a great thing and I've done it many a time myself in my own studies, when doing a predictive analysis of a text that's still in progress I think it has limited usefulness, at least in relation to how useful taking clues from the actual text itself is.
I think everything on the show is pointing to the idea that Zuko hit the point of no return in the finale. It was all but explicitly stated by Iroh when he drops the title. It's not the point of no return in relation to Zuko ultimately becoming a "good guy", but in terms of him getting there in the way that Iroh (and fandom) wanted and expected him to. Another theme of Avatar is people having to deal with the consequences of their decisions, because their decisions are what determine their destiny. Zuko immediately backtracking and remaking his final decision would undermine the finale in so many ways and I just don't think they're looking to do that.
And I have to disagree with you again here. Zuko has been developed from the beginning to be the future Fire Lord. A thing that his decision made hugely clear to me is that he can't ever do what Iroh did. Iroh turned his back completely on the Fire Nation. Iroh let go of being a prince and a general a long time ago. When Lu Ten died, he was finished. That's why he can protect the Avatar without a second thought, that's how he can encourage Zuko to join with the Avatar. But the core of Zuko's entire identity, what he realizes at his lowest point, is that he is the Prince of the Fire Nation and heir to the throne and he always will be. To fully betray his nation by actively fighting against them is something he can't do because it would be betraying himself. And this is when we come back to the balance. Zuko is obviously the textual representative of fire and of the Fire Nation, and he can't really be that if he disowns his nation in favor of Aang and co. The Fire Nation isn't an evil thing from which all those who fight for good must disassociate themselves. It's a nation of people just like any other nation of people, they just happen to be ruled by imperialist meglomaniacs and live under a blanket of endless propoganda in favor of those leaders' goals. They're indoctrinated and Zuko has to be in the position to realize that and want to change it for the good of his people. That's something he can't do if he just goes, Screw you, Fire Nation, and joins up with its enemies. It is, however, something he can do being allied with his sister and being back where he belongs and in the position to finally see home for what it is: good and bad. He has to be Fire Nation, really and truly, for the eventual peace to mean anything. Because it has to be understood that he can be Fire Nation, he can be a patriot, and still be a good person or else it's always going to be the three nations/elements united and, oh yeah, the evil fourth that every once in a while manages to put out a decent person by mistake.
Oh! And also, the reason that I'm discussing Zuko's actions in the finale on this thread about shipping foreshadowing is because what those actions themselves foreshadow is pretty relevant to the future of various ships.
Indeed, I know very, very well how much effort goes into creating each episode. And it doesn't seem at all like a basic process to me. I'm not sure what I said to give the impression that I think that there's anything in the show that is utterly meaningless. I don't think that things are meaningless. Neither do I dismiss all analysis because I do understand that there are underlying complexities in any well-structured piece of fiction. I spend most of my life analysing and otherwise blathering on about fiction and when I'm not doing that, I'm writing it. Analysis of fiction is literally one of my absolute favourite things in the world, one of my joys.
However, and my long experience with narrative analysis is what has taught me this, the fact that something is complex doesn't mean that there isn't still always going to be a point where you've hit overanalysis.
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