what people say about "Gary-Stues" and "Mary-Sues" in Avatar

[Tera253]

Aang has ntohing in his defense. he's #1 on this list.

Katara on the other hand, I have seen has a weakness... she is sometimes loving enough that it leads to naivete, and of course, she has those undesirable mood swings that also got much of the fandom to hate her. =P
The difference between her and Zuko is that unlike Zuko, Katara didn't (and doesn't) have people of the opposite gender drooling all around her. just Aang. any other guys she might have liked (namely, Jet) she went after him, not the other way around.
Katara's hostile nature to people who have betrayed her also helps. Jet, season II, Zuko, season III. she doesn't seem like the person who would take being wrong very nicely.
not saying she's de-suified, but it's not quite as extreme as others, namely Aang.

Sokka--not really a Stu. any sword skills he acquired were seen. we saw his progress in 304.

Toph--despite being an earthbending master who makes up for a missing sense with bada** skills, I don't think she's s Sue either. sure she did the whole "run away from home" thing, but I assume that letter to her parents was some form of reconciliation. and of course, we've seen her weaknesses--get her feet off of solid ground and you'll have her down and out. so yeah, surprisingly, not a Sue.

Zuko--#2 on the list, below Aang. I assume that Zuko probably had really good teachers, considering that his parents were probably able to afford them. (or teach him themsemlves). other than that though, he's got a lot o the sterotypical Stuness traits.

Iroh--not a Stu. with age comes experience. there's nothing negative about him really to say, because being calm is part of his nature.

Azula--she would have been a Sue, but season III revealed her true colors--her ultimate weakness. she's paranoid; no one likes her anymore, she loses it and goes nuts. so yeah, Azula kinda lost it at the end.

Ty Lee--...

Mai--yes I reckon so. I dont have a terrible lot to say about her.

Suki-- #3. though the prison scene was pretty dang cool, it seemed a little out there.


so in the end, I guess what it boils down to mostly in my opinion is their age. They all should have been at least 3 years older, and then some things would have been a little more plausible. To happen to find bending masters between the ages of 12 and 15 from each of the 4 nations (Zuko's 16, I know. shut up.) either seems like insane coincidence, Stu/Sue-ness, or maybe bending is just that easy to pick up in these here modern times. who knows?

so yeah, that's my rant. the only thing I don't like about it was my remarks about Katara, but by now I'm far too lazy to go back up and later it.
~Katara~

[nandireya]

Some things I need to point out in Zuko's defence...

He is NOT a naturally gifted firebender. Though there are many instances in the show that would say otherwise, and it's always been a bit of a bone of contention to me, Mike and Bryan said so in the commentary of The Siege of the North (not sure which part) which is why he took up the swords. The fact that he beat Zhao twice says more about Zhao's firebending than it does about Zuko's.

And if you compare Zuko's bending to the other kiddie benders in the show, he's actually pretty average. I mean has Toph EVER lost a fight? And Katara went from hopeless to a master in less than three months! His 'break-dance' moves may have been a way he came up with to compensate for his weaknesses...as the series progressed he appeared to incorporate influences from the other bendings into his own as well...the fire-whips for instance weren't seen until after he saw Katara make whips out of water.

As for his temper...well...that seems to be a Fire Nation thing (they're all pretty much hot heads)...BUT, it also seems to be a banishment thing, born more out of frustration and confusion than true anger. Look at the flashback Zukos as seen in The Storm and Zuko Alone, he was not an angry kid. His temper didn't show up until after he had half his face burned off and he was kicked out of the country...and that would make anyone a little perturbed.

His looks? Well...I can't really say anything about that outside of the fact that it's simple genetics. Look at Ozai and Ursa...two very pretty people...they couldn't help but make more very pretty people. As for the girls drooling over him...I guess it's the same as his real-life fangirls...he's a fractured soul who needs healing and girls find that appealing.

I feel Zuko's more woobie than Stu (he even made their list )

[jillrg]

Everyone in <i>Avatar</i> scores off-the-chart high on Mary Sue litmus tests (yes, I've done it), but adding up commonly held traits of a Mary Sue and dubbing characters with a lot "Mary Sue" is actually a bad way to determine Mary Sue-status. Why? Because <i>real</i> people I punch in score some Mary Sue traits!

Every good character is going to have <i>some</i> traits of a "Mary Sue" because the truth is, NOBODY wants to wtach or read about characters completely absent of cool powers and abilities who are short, fat, and ugly.

The terms Mary Sue and Gary Stu are overused on the Internet to refer to characters with above-average looks, powers, and abilities. It <i>is</i> possible for canon characters to be Mary Sue (and male characters can get away with it more easily than female), but I can't think of anyone on <i>Avatar</i> who is <i>that</i> flawless and overpowered with no justification or who the authors favor too much. Mary Sues (who aren't parodies) come from "bad writing" - the author expects them to be admired or liked, but the audience hates them for being too perfect. Not to sound like a brainwashed fan but Avatar characters are not poorly written... except for Katara

[Tera253]

you forgot about Aang.

and while I know that characters have to have some Sue/Stu traits to be cool, there's a difference between 'some', 'a lot', and 'off-the-charts high'...

they should have had weaknesses, especially in some fights against older, more experienced people. (namely, Aang vs. Ozai, and Katara vs. Hama)

That's why I like what they did with Toph though... they gave her a distinct weakness, something that none of the other characters seem to have except Azula in season III. well, maybe Sokka... maybe.

but seriously, is there NO ONE who has the guts to challenge the FireLord? (I know Aang only did it 'coz he had to. he'd never do that if he was given the choice). The avatar state thing was a bit cheap.
anyhoot, on a different note, either Katara was on steroids, or Hama must have really sucked at waterbending if it took her that long and only took Katara a day, a night and a day to learn it.

personally, I kinda thought they were all a few years (not: a few/ I'm not trying to say they should be 30 or anything. lol) too young to be as bada** as they were, except Toph, whose story is a bit different from the others.

~Azula~

[boomeraangsquad]

IMO, no one in Avatar is a Mary Sue/Gary Stu. Everyone has their flaws. But you just have to look deep for some of them.

Right now, I'm gonna defend Aang.

Oct 30, 2008 13:55:20 GMT -5 Lerri said:

[glow=red,2,300]Aang[/glow]
- Does Aang have anything that he dislikes himself for? I have yet to notice if he does.

Yes. He disliked himself for quite a few things. Re-watch The Guru. He felt guilty for running away. He felt ashamed himself for burning Katara and hurting all those innocent people. Also, re-watch The Awakening. Aang's really hated himself for the fact that he felt he failed everyone at Ba Sing Se. How do you call that not flawed?

[/i]

- The main reason I think Aang could be a Gary-Stu is because, like Katara said, he's naturally gifted. In Book-1[red]>[/red]Chapter-2, he manages to fight off a whole ship full of soldiers and run away without even a burn or a scratch. In Chapter-4, he fights Zuko with ADVANCED airbending. A 12-year-old using advanced airbending? I just can't buy it, especially since he actually holds Zuko off. He does this again in Chapter-15. Quite the Gary-Stuism.

You are right that he is naturally gifted in a few things such as waterbending, which is why i didn't like that ep that much because it was so unrealistic. But that doesn't mean he doesn't struggle at a few things. I mean watch Bitter Work, The Crossroads Of Destiny, and The Awakening. Clearly, Aang struggled in those episodes. About the last few comments, I disagree. Aang has been training with Monk Gyatso, an airbending master who even trained Avatar Roku, for 12 years. He was training everyday and he got his airbending arrows which indicated that he was a master. So he was already advanced in airbending coming out of that iceberg. Plus, it's Zuko. Zuko was not as skilled as Aang at all at first. Zuko's skills developed over time.[/i]

- Furthermore, Aang is too brave for a 12-year-old who's realized he has to save the world from a ruthless dictatorship. It would be less Gary-Stuish if he was protrayed as having a strong fear and cowardice of the world at first, and then getting braver with time as he fought the villains.

Aang is not as brave as you may think he is. He's showed plenty of fear throughout the series. Sure he is brave but he has also been scared. Re-watch the finale. Even Zuko says "I know you're scared, and I know you are not ready to save the world, but if you don't defeat the Fire Lord there won't be a world left to save", and had a worried look on his face.[/i]


[/quote]

[aquavi]

Shame TV Tropes has been hacked otherwise I could link to the 'Mary Sue Exemption' trope (you all get to be productive today!) where towards the bottom ATLA is listed as a series where just about _everyone_ is a Sue/Stu from Aang to Suki to the cabbage man. I decided to see if this was true and put Song through the two litmus tests that TV Tropes links to on another page and keep in mind that I decided incorporate the fanon perceptions of her character which are all based on her actions and words in CotL... she was a 'Boderline Sue' in the first one and 'Complete Mary Sue' in the other (not an "Uber-Sue" or and "Irreversible Sue" however, which the major characters of ATLA supposedly get when you run them through) and she's a character who has appeared in 1 episode for 5 minutes... if a Jin fan could put her through them, I'd like to compare.

This is keeping in mind that litmus tests aren't perfect and can make very good un-Sue characters be marked as Sues (Dream from Gaiman's The Sandman tends to be example most mentioned) where their savior is good writing... but the fact that ATLA's writing quality jumps all over the place making many characters appear to me really inconsistent (Aang, Katara and Mai are the biggest perpetrators of this, though thanks to S3, just about everyone gets derailed via inconstancy... Zuko and Azula are pretty glaring in S3 actually) attributes to some Sue-like qualities.

And that at times the characters seem to be treated more like plot devices then plausible people where you'll see them behave in one episode which either contradicts how they acted in a previous episode, or if it doesn't outright contridict anything, where they don't seem to have any indication of acting that way EVER previous. Or, in the case of Katara's fly-off-the-handle temper, what would otherwise be an important flaw otherwise dissipates because the plot no longer demands it. Sure you can argue that she's gained more control over her outbursts once mastering waterbending, but I'd prefer not to have to take your word on something that involves a character overcoming one of their own faults (because it's pretty significant character development IMHO.)

Typically and traditionally a Sue is a character who has the universe/plot bent to fit around them... in ATLA it's reverse. The characters are bent to fit around it's universe/plot. This is probably why it's not so jarring and actually kind of enjoyable when it comes to ATLA.

[jillrg]

^ That page is redundant, anyway.

[aquavi]

What's so redundant about TV Tropes? Though the two litmus tests are very nearly the same...

[dragonflly]

I knew as soon as I read the first post that we'd have a Zuko defense from Nandi, and what a great job you did.

I don't feel there is a perfect person on the show, everyone has faults. I guess really it's just how we perceive the character for ourselves. I saw alot of predictability in some of the characters, but then they did things I didn't see coming. They can all be Mary Sues and Gary Stues, and then none of them could.

By the way, thank you to whoever fixed Characters page, I can get on all of the threads now!!!

[nandireya]

I always thought Katara...and Azula...are borderline Mary-Sues...they're pretty darn perfect...

[Shyne]

It is a part of Azula's charater to come off as perfect. But, in the end it turns out she isn't.

Now about Katara........>.>

[Sakura]

Katara pretty much is the AMry-Sue of the series, being beautiful and perfect and gifted and nice and... The list goes on and on. Now, if only she was the second Avatar.... >< XD

[concreteangel]

I think, of the whole group, the biggest Mary Sue/Gary Stu are Aang and Toph.

Think about it...

Aang's this practically-superhuman 12 year old kid with unnatural powers (the only one of his kind in more than one way - last airbender and the Avatar). He masters his bending faster than all the other Avatars, and can make girls swoon right at his feet even though he hasn't really even hit puberty.

Toph is BLIND. She sees with her feet. Her earthbending is unnaturally good, and she does it in a different way than everyone else. Her blindness should make her a bad bender right? Nope. It makes her stronger. If I'd made an Avatar fanfic before she came in with a character just like her, I woulda gotten reviews like, "OMG!!! Lyk she is such a MARY SUE. This is AWFUL. Go crawl in a hole and NEVER write again." She defies authority. Runs away from home, yet she's only 12. She's got a sassy attitude toward... everything. I'm tempted to run one of those Mary Sue tests on the girl...

Katara is pretty Mary Sueish too, but I definitely think Toph is worse.