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Post by luthien on Dec 11, 2007 14:41:57 GMT -5
Folks, I have to say this, and I really don't want to offend, but it's true - so much, on both sides, that is being said about Mai is fanwank. I'm sorry, but saying she's "cares about people other than Zuko, doesn't like the war, is afraid of Azula" - these things are made up, people. That's the brass-tacks honest-to-goodness truth. Just like some rabid Zutara shippers make up all kinds of subtext when Zuko and Katara fight against each other, this stuff is just fiction. It's non-canon. I'll say what others say all the time - sticking just with what's strictly canon, it ain't there, folks. It's strictly imagination. I'm not saying that's *not* what Mai was thinking at the time, but the creators have clearly not bothered to show it yet, so I can only go on what's been presented thus far. Now of course in the final 10 episodes, all these questions and more may be answered - and if so, then I'll be cool with it. But thus far, we can't say what Mai was thinking during the Tom-Tom exchange. We don't know if she didn't care at all or if she was conflicted. The creators didn't bother to show us, and didn't bother to revisit the situation, so we just can't draw a conclusion either way. I *will* say that there's no evidence that she was deathly afraid of Azula, or that she knew Aang would take care of Tom-Tom (though keep in mind, Aang's most notable event prior to this was his destruction of a good chunk of the Fire Nation Navy - he killed a lot of people there, so not exactly a cuddly image). There's also no evidence she hated Tom-Tom. So all we've got is speculation. Mai's first expression to Ty Lee was one of concern for her welfare. Here's what she says:"I thought you ran off and joined the circus? You said it was your calling." That's more of a "what are you doing here?" than a "how are you doing?" question. She also didn't mind letting Ty Lee go into the wall sludge juice alone, and didn't even bother helping her after Toph encased her in rocks. The one "caring" comment we got was just "Leave her alone." But not a breath later, she says "Guess that's why you need to have 10 boyfriends, too" in a sarcastic way. Mai cares about something other than Zuko. From The Beach: "I know there's one thing I care about - I care about you." Pretty plain, folks, she says it herself. Mai doesn't agree with the war. No evidence whatsoever. Mai's too afraid of Azula to defy her. From The Drill: "She can shoot all the lightning she wants at me, I am not going in that wall sludge juice." Now one can assume she believes Azula will never know. But for the rest of the episode she doesn't join the action at all, and Azula clearly sees Mai - spotless - open up the drill hatch, where she's been the whole time, and flippantly announce, "We lost." If Azula *didn't* figure out then that Mai didn't do as she was ordered, well then Azula's pretty stupid. And though she is a lot of things, stupid is not one of them. And when Mai waves off some members of the GAang with "Just take the bear," assuming it's because she's letting them escape out of the kindness of her heart is putting in subtext that simply is not there. It's like saying Zuko rescued Aang from Zhao in "The Blue Spirit" because he's madly in love with Aang and wants to figure some way to repopulate the world with Air Nomads with him. And say what they want, but I feel the real reason Mike and Bryan say "Mai's so good all she does is pin people, not hurt them" is because this show's on Nick. Folks, *all* these kids have attacked with possible deadly consequences. I'm sure M&B also told the higher-ups at Nick that during the Siege of the North, all the Fire Nation sailors got out of the ships before Aang split them in half, but you know and I know that's not true. Mai's aimed knives at people's faces (Katara and Toph), with no material behind them, so I'm not sure what we're supposed to gather from that. And though I will admit to you that Zuko's betrayal of Iroh is on the same level as Mai's treatment of Tom-Tom, I'm still ticked at Zuko for what he did, and I desperately want to see that scene of him begging for his Uncle's forgiveness - because that's the least he should do. Zuko needs to atone. Though it is worth noting that Iroh surrendered himself willingly, and is a master Firebender and war general. Tom-Tom is a toddler. In conclusion, I'm not saying Mai's evil, or good. At this point she's still very much a blank slate, allowing people to put whatever personality they want on her. And a lot of it's nowhere near what we've seen in the show.
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Kyatto
Kyoshi Azula
Dance, magic dance!
Posts: 2,228
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Post by Kyatto on Dec 11, 2007 15:09:46 GMT -5
Folks, I have to say this, and I really don't want to offend, but it's true - so much, on both sides, that is being said about Mai is fanwank. I'm sorry, but saying she's "cares about people other than Zuko, doesn't like the war, is afraid of Azula" - these things are made up, people. That's the brass-tacks honest-to-goodness truth. Just like some rabid Zutara shippers make up all kinds of subtext when Zuko and Katara fight against each other, this stuff is just fiction. It's non-canon. I'll say what others say all the time - sticking just with what's strictly canon, it ain't there, folks. It's strictly imagination. I'm not saying that's *not* what Mai was thinking at the time, but the creators have clearly not bothered to show it yet, so I can only go on what's been presented thus far. Now of course in the final 10 episodes, all these questions and more may be answered - and if so, then I'll be cool with it. But thus far, we can't say what Mai was thinking during the Tom-Tom exchange. We don't know if she didn't care at all or if she was conflicted. The creators didn't bother to show us, and didn't bother to revisit the situation, so we just can't draw a conclusion either way. I *will* say that there's no evidence that she was deathly afraid of Azula, or that she knew Aang would take care of Tom-Tom (though keep in mind, Aang's most notable event prior to this was his destruction of a good chunk of the Fire Nation Navy - he killed a lot of people there, so not exactly a cuddly image). There's also no evidence she hated Tom-Tom. So all we've got is speculation. Mai's first expression to Ty Lee was one of concern for her welfare. Here's what she says:"I thought you ran off and joined the circus? You said it was your calling." That's more of a "what are you doing here?" than a "how are you doing?" question. She also didn't mind letting Ty Lee go into the wall sludge juice alone, and didn't even bother helping her after Toph encased her in rocks. The one "caring" comment we got was just "Leave her alone." But not a breath later, she says "Guess that's why you need to have 10 boyfriends, too" in a sarcastic way. Mai cares about something other than Zuko. From The Beach: "I know there's one thing I care about - I care about you." Pretty plain, folks, she says it herself. Mai doesn't agree with the war. No evidence whatsoever. Mai's too afraid of Azula to defy her. From The Drill: "She can shoot all the lightning she wants at me, I am not going in that wall sludge juice." Now one can assume she believes Azula will never know. But for the rest of the episode she doesn't join the action at all, and Azula clearly sees Mai - spotless - open up the drill hatch, where she's been the whole time, and flippantly announce, "We lost." If Azula *didn't* figure out then that Mai didn't do as she was ordered, well then Azula's pretty stupid. And though she is a lot of things, stupid is not one of them. And when Mai waves off some members of the GAang with "Just take the bear," assuming it's because she's letting them escape out of the kindness of her heart is putting in subtext that simply is not there. It's like saying Zuko rescued Aang from Zhao in "The Blue Spirit" because he's madly in love with Aang and wants to figure some way to repopulate the world with Air Nomads with him. And say what they want, but I feel the real reason Mike and Bryan say "Mai's so good all she does is pin people, not hurt them" is because this show's on Nick. Folks, *all* these kids have attacked with possible deadly consequences. I'm sure M&B also told the higher-ups at Nick that during the Siege of the North, all the Fire Nation sailors got out of the ships before Aang split them in half, but you know and I know that's not true. Mai's aimed knives at people's faces (Katara and Toph), with no material behind them, so I'm not sure what we're supposed to gather from that. And though I will admit to you that Zuko's betrayal of Iroh is on the same level as Mai's treatment of Tom-Tom, I'm still ticked at Zuko for what he did, and I desperately want to see that scene of him begging for his Uncle's forgiveness - because that's the least he should do. Zuko needs to atone. Though it is worth noting that Iroh surrendered himself willingly, and is a master Firebender and war general. Tom-Tom is a toddler. In conclusion, I'm not saying Mai's evil, or good. At this point she's still very much a blank slate, allowing people to put whatever personality they want on her. And a lot of it's nowhere near what we've seen in the show. THANK YOU! The problem is, because we're not shown enough, people draw arrows that Mai = embodiment of Beezlebub because the only thing we've seen is something a lot of people don't like. To put it flatly, people should just take what they get, put it in their pipe, and smoke it. Is Mai coming back? Yes. Her role in the story isn't over yet. The fact that Zuko's scenes in "The Invasion" writing and delivering her letter show it. I've worked on enough stuff to know that part of the reason why we don't know enough about Mai and Ty Lee is because of time constraints. Why waste episodes on them when we need to focus on the main characters?
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Pleading Eyes
Kyoshi Mai
I feel violated... and crispy
Posts: 2,327
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Post by Pleading Eyes on Dec 11, 2007 15:25:11 GMT -5
Thank you luthien! That's exactly what I've been trying to say! *karma'd*
I'm not trying to demonize Mai into this heartless baby killer, but it irritates me that people keep painting her as this mature, compassionate, and misunderstood character that she really isn't.
The only thing we've seen of Mai so far is apathy, and that she likes Zuko. That's it.
She isn't a bad person, but she isn't a good person either. And that's all I've been trying to say all along.
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Ana
Metalbending Cop
Posts: 5,061
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Post by Ana on Dec 11, 2007 15:26:03 GMT -5
But thus far, we can't say what Mai was thinking during the Tom-Tom exchange. Again I say: if the creators really "didn't show her the least bit bothered by it", that close-up of Mai's (not pleased) face wouldn’t be here at all. Also, this doesn’t support arguments for canon but I find it interesting Mai was the most upset Dangerous Lady in this Tale of Aang scan. And before that she says "Zuko. Leave her [Ty Lee] alone." If Mai doesn’t care about Ty Lee this sentence would not exist. Please point to me the "only" in this sentence. Zuko defiantly engages Mai the most but I have a hard time swallowing he's the only thing she cares about when she’s things like Ty Lee’s friend. I agree with this. At this point, Mai is not totally good or totally evil. My problem is that a lot of fandomers refuse to see anything other than the evil. Look at it this way: Ty Lee is just as "evil" as Mai. They both have fought people, they both hunted Zuko, they’ve both been out in the world and have said nothing about war, but yet there are no debates on Ty Lee's morality. Is this because she isn’t apathetic? Or she isn’t Zuko’s girlfriend? For some, yes. Either way, they’re both grey characters and they have both been foreshadowed (this look is shared while Azula says "It's terrible when you can't trust the people who are closest to you.") to turn on Azula.
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
Posts: 1,852
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Post by inuyatta on Dec 11, 2007 15:28:35 GMT -5
*sigh* The things I come back to when I've had some sleep
HEE-LARIOUS. I know Mai fans don't like Mai's bad traits being pointed out, but honestly, if you really love her, you'll take the good with the bad. In the sudden explosion of this topic after I left, there have been angry Mai fans repeating their speculations on how Mai was concerned for her brother and what not, and people replying with responses based on WHAT WE'VE ACTUALLY SEEN IN THE SHOW.
Look, guys, you're taking this WAY too personally. Frankly, I hate that I can't talk some people about the show anymore, because the minute I imply that there's something I don't like about Mai, they automatically talk down to me and treat me like an idiot when I know dang well that I'm not pulling crap outta my behind. I'm not a big enough fan of Zuko to care that he's with Mai, but I do find it distasteful that Mai has had little to no development outside of Zuko--I'm pretty sure that if she wasn't sucking face with Zuko for the first half of this season, she'd have been dropped into the same hole as Ty Lee.
No one is demonizing Mai (go to a shipping-based thread for that, you'll get plenty of it there as I'm sure that hilarious picture was describing XD)--it can't be helped that the show has given us a lot of examples to say she's nowhere near being a *good* character. There's a lot more black in her grey than a lot of folks are willing to admit.
On the flipside, because she's a grey character, she's not outright evil because she lacks the passion and the motivation for it. The main problem I find with her character (and I would consider this a problem with ANY character) is that her one and only concern is her boyfriend. The only thing that brings any hint of expression to her face is ZUKO. That is seriously not healthy.
No, please, don't try to bring Hey Arnold! into this, as I loved the show, but honestly, it's not written anything like Avatar. There is very little true drama in HA! (which I liked because it fit) and loads of it in Avatar (which I like because it fits). There's a reason Helga went to see Dr. Bliss in any case. ;D
The scene that could possibly stand out for Mai caring about someone other than Zuko is Ty Lee in the beach...I really loved that a lot, because Ty Lee feels so under appreciated in this series...and then someone pointed out that the scene is tainted by Mai having an argument with Zuko at the time. Nuts.
I will bite, Maiko has served the purpose of making Mai express herself a little more. Unfortunately, what we've seen there still doesn't say much for her character other than she's constantly hungry. She's bored about everything, she still only cares for Zuko, and now we know that she's got an AMAZING metabolism.
I do have a question for Mai fans though--if Mai truly cares about her friends, does this go for Azula as well? I mean, both have hugged Ty Lee and Azula even apologized to her. Does this spell out redemption for Azula as well?
Kyatto, I <3 you and I loved meeting you at the cons, but I do see a lot of speculation in your post and double standards. If you're not going to count The Beach as being canon for Azula, then you can't turn around and say it's canon for Mai--that's a double standard. But I am with you on doubting the validity of that entire episode, outside of CM--even Mai's past doesn't match up with what we are shown because her parents are nothing like her. If a politician needs absolute reservation and obedience to secure his position, then they must also exhibit those same qualities, even after they've got the position--that is, if they want to keep it.
Of course, I will be willing to admit this much: I don't sympathize with Mai because I'm Asian. Nothing about her past excuses the way she behaves now, and srsly, she'd be considered spoiled by most standards. I had to go through just as strict an upbringing, and my parents aren't even politicians! The big difference between my upbringing and hers is that Mai got whatever she wanted if she did what she was told. For me, if I did what I was told, I didn't get slapped. =p So no, sorry, not gonna get a lot of sympathy out of me.
Now, if we're being honest with ourselves, I don't think Mai is going to be seen much for the rest of this season simply because now it's all on the Gaang. The only reason we even saw as much Team Ozai as we did was because of Zuko--well, now Zuko isn't there. They've got A TON of plot points to wrap up with the Gaang and Zuko all before the 2 hour finale (2 hours....sorry, I felt a shiver of joy at that)--there's just not going to be a lot of time for Mai or Ty Lee, which doubly sucks for the latter. I get the feeling that if we're going to be seeing the FN team, it'll be focused on Azula because she got found out for lying to Ozai. There's got to be repercussions for that.
Now, I'm well aware that Mai and Zuko have unfinished business--but as for them hitting it off again, I'm doubtful. I really don't think Zuko is going to have any romantic relationship by this series end because he won't have the time to devote to it. If the creators truly like Mai as she is, but want to develop her into a full character, she's gonna have to resolve at least one of her flaws.
If I see Mai say something to the effect of 'You know, I'm tired of trying to make you happy when you're NEVER happy, and I'm sick of being your sister's pet. I've got better things to do, so you go deal with your little 'issues' and tell your sister I'm through with all of you', to Zuko--I will have some respect for her. If she does this, not only have they maintained her neutrality and overall selfishness that the creators seem to like about her, but now she's become proactive enough to go out and find her own adventure. I probably still won't like her because her character never sat well with me for many reasons, but I will have some respect for a girl who knows what she wants and does something about it rather than waiting for someone to give it to her.
Anyhow, this is tl;dr, but there are my thoughts, for what it's worth. Believe what you want, as you undoubtedly will, but don't put words in my mouth or twist what I've said because the members of this forum are better than that.
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Post by luthien on Dec 11, 2007 15:37:46 GMT -5
Ana, you're right that Mai and Ty Lee will eventually turn on Azula. I definitely think that's what that scene was there for. Now I did mention that Mai said "Leave her alone" to Zuko when he was starting to bag on Ty Lee. But we can't say why she said that. There are several possible reasons: 1) she cares about Ty Lee, 2) she didn't want Ty Lee to go into her whole spiel on why she is the way she is, 3) she was still angry at Zuko and just wanted to argue with him. Again, we just don't know. But all three are valid possibilities. And while Mai didn't tell Zuko he's the only thing she cares about, again, in canon, he's the only person she's mentioned caring about, and is the only person she's actively, visually, cared about in what could be called a traditional way. That's just what we've been presented. And truthfully, we don't even know if she considers Ty Lee a friend. She's never referred to her as such, and she's never taken the time to do "friendly" time things with her. All we know is that they're acquaintances and traveling companions, but that's it. They do hang around together, but that's more than likely the result of circumstance than preference. But again, we don't know.
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Kyatto
Kyoshi Azula
Dance, magic dance!
Posts: 2,228
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Post by Kyatto on Dec 11, 2007 15:48:29 GMT -5
@ inuyatta- I have a craptastic long-term memory. XD I met you at a con? :OOO
The severe flaw in the show itself is that they're trying to wrap up small plotlines in thirty minutes, when there's so much more the could show us, or tell us. It's a problem any 30-minute show faces. It's also only supposed to be wrapped up in three seasons. When other shows, with a similar epic plot and diverse amount of characters, span on for 5, or 10.
We're not going to get all the information we want, so we'd better accept it now.
If Zuko joins the Gaang, there goes that B-plot. He's with the Gaang the end. Who will become the B-plot? It's a toss up between the FN Crew and Iroh. Or maybe even both. (They did a fairly good job with that in "The Guru" and CoD.)
It's obviously the girls haven't been written out of the show just because Zuko ran off.
Both Mai and Ty Lee have a lot of potential. To me, both of their pasts seem like something someone made up on the spot just to give us something. In other words, excuses. However, this is realistic. How many teenage girls come up with long winded excuses about why they do what they do? MILLIONS. The difference is, Mai didn't even want to talk about it.
I don't pity her, I'm not sympathetic for her. (Except for a fact her guy just up and left with the equivalent to a text message break up. That hurts.) She's a lot like girls I know in real life I want to slap. Why do I even like her? Because she's the first girl in the series to not give a darn about much of anything and I find that hilarious! Everyone is all "srs bizniz" and she's all "tl;dr I did it for the lulz" .
To sum up Maiko:
Zuko: "WALL OF ANGST." Mai: "tl;dr" *snog*
That's really, really funny.
Though for some reason, she probably would get less of a bad rep if she wasn't Mr. Wobbie McMuffin's girl. Because obviously, Mr. Woobie McMuffin deserves a harem of beautiful happy women. Happy woman who PMS, and are emotional, and drip with happy and YAY and AWWW POOR BABY. Oh well. If I had my way, Jet would come rushing in to propose to him.
Mai and Ty Lee are still gray. Not one is better than the other. Oh well.
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Post by luthien on Dec 11, 2007 15:50:22 GMT -5
^^^Dear Lord, for a second I read that as "Mai and Ty Lee are still gay." Though that would certainly be interesting... ;D
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Post by admirality on Dec 11, 2007 15:52:01 GMT -5
^ That would make my day !!!!! lol
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
Posts: 1,852
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Post by inuyatta on Dec 11, 2007 16:14:41 GMT -5
@ inuyatta- I have a craptastic long-term memory. XD I met you at a con? :OOO The severe flaw in the show itself is that they're trying to wrap up small plotlines in thirty minutes, when there's so much more the could show us, or tell us. It's a problem any 30-minute show faces. It's also only supposed to be wrapped up in three seasons. When other shows, with a similar epic plot and diverse amount of characters, span on for 5, or 10. We're not going to get all the information we want, so we'd better accept it now. If Zuko joins the Gaang, there goes that B-plot. He's with the Gaang the end. Who will become the B-plot? It's a toss up between the FN Crew and Iroh. Or maybe even both. (They did a fairly good job with that in "The Guru" and CoD.) It's obviously the girls haven't been written out of the show just because Zuko ran off. Both Mai and Ty Lee have a lot of potential. To me, both of their pasts seem like something someone made up on the spot just to give us something. In other words, excuses. However, this is realistic. How many teenage girls come up with long winded excuses about why they do what they do? MILLIONS. The difference is, Mai didn't even want to talk about it. I don't pity her, I'm not sympathetic for her. (Except for a fact her guy just up and left with the equivalent to a text message break up. That hurts.) She's a lot like girls I know in real life I want to slap. Why do I even like her? Because she's the first girl in the series to not give a darn about much of anything and I find that hilarious! Everyone is all "srs bizniz" and she's all "tl;dr I did it for the lulz" . To sum up Maiko: Zuko: "WALL OF ANGST." Mai: "tl;dr" *snog* That's really, really funny. Though for some reason, she probably would get less of a bad rep if she wasn't Mr. Wobbie McMuffin's girl. Because obviously, Mr. Woobie McMuffin deserves a harem of beautiful happy women. Happy woman who PMS, and are emotional, and drip with happy and YAY and AWWW POOR BABY. Oh well. If I had my way, Jet would come rushing in to propose to him. Mai and Ty Lee are still gray. Not one is better than the other. Oh well. I thought we had--animefest? A-kon? Definitely a TX convention--I think you were with Malemiko last we met. A big WORD on the whole cramming a bunch of plot into 30 minutes--I imagine these last 10 episodes are going to have to focus on turning the tide for the Gaang and doing a little more with Iroh and the WLS--with 10 episodes remaining, they can't remain such a big mystery anymore. I see where you're coming from with Mai--she's a big lulz factor to the show...almost the female equivalent of Sokka without being the constant butt of jokes. Honestly, I don't think Zuko needs to be with any girl right now until the whole mommy issue gets resolved for good. I do have an obvious bias towards Zuko/Song, as I think it'd bring both their characters full circle, but I'm well aware it may never happen with the exception of fanfiction. Zuko just requires a lot of maintenance that no girl is obligated to give him. I do think that Mai gets a lot of flak for getting in the way of other people's preferred ships, the same way Song and Jin got reamed-- but Mai probably gets a bit more flak than the other two right now because Song and Jin are good characters--Mai has been working for the bad guy all along. Ty Lee gets a little more forgiveness because she's obviously afraid of Azula. Mai went out of sheer boredom. It's easier to understand and forgive someone going along with Azula out of fear rather than someone who joined up with her because she thought it might be fun.
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Post by mindbender18 on Dec 11, 2007 16:25:28 GMT -5
Oh, I remember when Song was first introduced, she received massive wank (almost rivals Mai's) 0_o
Jin didn't get much flak because if i remember correctly, many people saw her as just being the stepping stone in Zuko being together with Katara..
.....don't ask me
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Post by admirality on Dec 11, 2007 16:26:22 GMT -5
^ she recieved massive what?
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Post by mindbender18 on Dec 11, 2007 16:29:13 GMT -5
^you're not familiar with the term wank?
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
Posts: 1,852
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Post by inuyatta on Dec 11, 2007 16:30:21 GMT -5
Wank...um, ever heard of fandom_wank?
Oh man, Song got so much hate. SO MUCH. @_@ You're right, Jin did get off a little easier, but I did see pockets of Jin-hate here and there. Mostly, people didn't take her seriously because ToBSS was a filler episode.
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Post by admirality on Dec 11, 2007 16:30:49 GMT -5
^ I am familiar.............. R u guys meaning the definition I mean or does it hav a non rude meaning?
WHAT THE HELL IS FANDOM WANK?
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