asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
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Post by asian malaysian on Sept 26, 2008 22:14:04 GMT -5
Give me more explanation then that, because I'd rather be raped by a man named sprinkles, have my arm chopped off, and then get thrown off a building than to go to a psychologist's office. True as that is it's completely irrelevant when it comes to what you should and shouldn't let your kids do. Because if you take things by how bad they possibly can get without thinking of the odds of it happening than you've thrown all logic out the window. I never said anything about throwing logic out the window. I was responding to historymans comment that as a parent he would like to see what humanity was capable of. The psychoanalystcomment was describing a worse case scenario which I obviously wont intend but would be the lesser of two evils. Like you just said yourself earlier "there is a middle ground". Id teach my kid to stay with a group of friends and to mindful of strangers. Common sense stuff to stay safe. And I may give the kid a handphone too.
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Post by Gran Gran on Sept 26, 2008 22:14:30 GMT -5
Grandi for starters is somewhere around Cosmic AAng if memory serves me right, plus minus a few adjustments.
The WiKi link is all nice and dandy, happens here, too, but the deal is that it does not happen as often as the headlines make one believe (more kids go to the corner store every day then get abducted) Wiki is greatly unreliable and it is not exactly the same cultural context. In Kualalumpur I wouldn't go to the corner store alone myself, let alone let my kid go...(forgive if I got the town wrong)
And Mike. this is not the OGB. Either add something to the discussion or don't post! You are spamming!
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Sept 26, 2008 22:16:32 GMT -5
Grandi, Theo, read the wiki link to find out where Nurin Jazlin is lying. Theo? whoops, my bad. must be thinking of someone else.
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
Let me hear you say this ship is bananas! B-A-NA-N-A-S!
Posts: 1,308
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Post by asian malaysian on Sept 26, 2008 22:27:21 GMT -5
@ Grand Dame- I live in Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia and I followed the case in far more detail when it happened here. It was a horrible, horrible time and the fact that the monster responsible will probably never be caught makes me wish there is a hell. I just cited a Wiki source for a short summary. Trust me, it happened. Im not so convinced that New York is that much safer than Kuala Lumpur. It was also used to illustrate that being mugged of 20 dllars and spare change in broad day light on a subway is hardly the worse thing that could happen to a 9 year old kid.
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Post by Gran Gran on Sept 26, 2008 22:38:56 GMT -5
true, but only to a point.
The problem is if we never let the kids off the leash, how are they supposed to learn freedom. if they are not exposed to different things, how will they know - down the line - what is good or bad, safe or dangerous. Granted the 9 year old on the subway is not the best example. But getting back to your example, there are far greater dangers lurking close to home, in the family, social groups etc. People who have made it an art to gain confidence to abuse other people (not just kids) to the extend where the victim will be completely uncredible.
So we have to deal with the odd chance pure evil enters our lives, but the real issues of making kids confident. Which, too is part in avoiding being victimized: Confident people are less likely to be attackt or fall for gimmics and con artists.
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Post by travellingfay on Oct 10, 2008 20:42:23 GMT -5
In Kualalumpur I wouldn't go to the corner store alone myself, let alone let my kid go...(forgive if I got the town wrong) I know I'm straying a little from the main point, but this brought me up short; I think perhaps you're labouring under some misapprehensions about KL. I think perhaps the point of the link was more that EVEN in KL such things can happen - whilst in the West such events seem far more familiar, albeit no less horrifying. (And in for a penny, in for a pound - since I'm starting my inaugural post with tangents, I have to ask whether anyone else is registering the irony of this particular discussion, since the reason we're here at all is because of a ahared love for a story about a group of children leaving their parents and/or guardians and travelling independently around the world, hurling themselves into peril right, left & centre, and relying upon the kindness of strangers?) Okay, that said - I'm a bit torn over the incident in question. It makes me cringe at the possibility of this kid being hurt while venturing home alone, but I do have sympathy with the mother's point of view - that (particularly middleclass western) children are wrapped in cotton wool an awful lot, and that this isn't neccesarily beneficial. We're so much more conscious now of the dangers out there than our parents' parents seem to have been, and I agree that this results in a curtailing of children's opportunities to develop independence and self-reliance. Indeed, for that matter we're seeing a distinct erosion of rites of passage, and of development of maturity* and responsibility even as adults - there's this whole blame culture, this whole notion that if you spill hot coffee on yourself, someone else must be responsible. That if you choose to spend money you don't have on things you don't actually need, that it's not your fault if you end up buried in debt. I think that encouraging personal responsibility, and independence, and common sense, is A Good Thing, and I think that this is what was motivating the mother in this instance. There are other ways of developing these qualities - we don't know whether this is just one of a range of ways in which her son is being encouraged to take responsibility for himself. Certainly it's a pretty nerve-wracking one. Still, the thing is that however conscientious you are as a parent, you CANNOT guarantee their safety. That's the horrifying part - that the f*cked up bastards who do the kind of thing that happened to that poor 8 year old in Malaysia - or indeed the people who commit other, less final assaults and seductions - WILL continue to find victims, however careful one is. Children are taken in broad daylight from their own back gardens, despite their parents' vigilence; it does not follow that we should keep children confined to their rooms all day. So - I don't think that what this mother did is anything remotely akin to child abuse. But in her place I'd have been more likely to agree to let him venture on his little quest with a couple of friends, and make sure that they were armed with an emergency cell phone just in case they got themselves horribly lost. And I'd probably have (and I suspect that she DID do this, for all that she doesn't make it explicit in her blog post) already taken him on the subway myself on that route plenty of times,and made sure he knew precisely where he was getting on and off, and who to ask if he got mixed up. And then I'd sit at home crapping myself until they arrived. I think that ultimately, we can't guarantee our kids will be safe from the Big Bad Wolf. We can encourage them to stick to the safe path, we can try to make sure that they recognise wolves even if they're in sheep's clothing, and encourage them to kick said wolves in the balls and scream like hell for the woodcutter - but we can't guarantee that they'll be safe, short of locking them in a high tower without any door. And that doesn't tend to end well either. (And I hope that this last paragraph isn't taken as making light of the incident Asian Malaysian linked to - heaven knows that broke my heart, and I feel positively murderous myself towards the people responsible. I only wanted to reference the fairytales because they are about this very thing, and indicative of the fact that this kind of threat has always been there, always been something we warn children about. It's not just a modern danger.) Um. Also? Hi there, Avatar fans! This would be my first post. I do hope I haven't contrived to alienate the lot of you. (Brevity - not so much my superpower.) *...er, yes, okay, so maybe I am a prime example of this, as evinced by the fact that I've sought out a discussion board for a Nickleodeon show. Um. Move along. Nothing to see here.
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Splendi
Combustion Man
I've lost my place but I can't stop this story..
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Post by Splendi on Oct 19, 2008 20:28:43 GMT -5
So there are lots of little mini-discussions in this thread, which I'll conveniently ignore and only reply to the first post.
In my not-so-little beach-y town over here on the West Coast there are lots of rather strange people around. We've got Tom, of myspace.. We've got Bob Dylan (wikipedia says so..).. We've got Luke and Owen Wilson and Dylan and Cole Sprouse.. and we've got like a bajillion homeless and/or creepy people.
Needless to say, I've only recently been able to wander around town aimlessly as my mother used to do when she was a kid in her small Massachusetts town that no one's heard of. I've enjoyed it, but I think all these years before I've been underestimated of things I can do for myself.
All my years at camp taught me to think freely for myself, by myself. I would make decisions independently. I'd have to decide for myself who would be safe friend choices for the time I spent there; who would I have the most fun with, who would I bunk with, who would I have the most fun competing against, etc. And I think I did pretty well for the immature kid I was.
But then you hear the news. BRAINWASH! There are two subjects that I believe feed into this problem: Overprotective Parents (and the news stories that concern them) and the media's over exaggeration of child safety in daily life.
So overprotective parents. I recently read an article in either Seventeen, CosmoGirl, or Readers Digest (my memorie is rather fuzzy) about this new situation. Parents are holding on to their children longer and longer, rather than letting them grow up. They've got tracking devices, they know their myspace, facebook, and e-mail passwords, they know exactly where their child is at all times, regardless of whether we're talking about an eight year old or an eighteen year old. Some parents are fighting their childrens battles for them, fighting with teachers and administrators about grades, commutes, extra-cirriculars, etc. Others are their childs best friend rather than an authority figure. I'm not saying that involved parents are something to shame, but there's a limit, people.
This involvement at such high levels is hindering crucial development, such as the the ability to stand up for yourself, and a feeling of independance that everyone deserves.
Two; the media. Brainwashing the general public isn't a fantastic idea, but when it's driving parents to extremes (as above), it's just got to stop. We've heard all the horror stories.. Elizabeth Smart, whatserface that dissapeared in Cuba (I honestly cannot remember her name at the mo, even though I followed the story for a while), etc, but the thing is, these are the *only* stories. Something as serious as child abduction is never kept under the radar, it's always number one on your local six o'clock news.
Parents that get scared by these situations need to look at the big picture. These huge incidents are few and far between. Elizabeth Smart only dissapeared once, but her story ran for years, imprinting the image in the minds of the public. It wasn't like they found her and someone else was immidiatly taken or something. One girl, one situation.. just a ton of coverage.
Now, the way this plays in to the general topic. I would've done exactly the same thing. My children are going to have very free rein once they've finished their obligations (homework, extra-cirriculars, music, etc.), and only then. They'll tell me where they're going, when the think they'll be back, and how their getting there. But once that's done, I'm not going to have them call me to make sure they got there safely, I think that's being a bit paranoid.
This mother had a very large scale experiment for her son that he could obviously complete easily, and did. In no way should this be considered child abuse, I consider the whole Dave Pelzer type situation child abuse. If you injure a child, that's abuse. If you present them with a challenge of independance and bravery, that's a test of character, not abuse.
Anyhoo, I think that my mother has been vigulent in her care of me, however she does get slightly overprotective at times. But she still lets me leave the house to bike down to the beach and she still lets me go to camp for months each summer.
You know all those classic coming of age stories? How often, honestly, are the parents present? You find yourself by yourself.
Learning who you and gaining your independance doesn't require a parent signature.
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Post by Consonant*** on Oct 20, 2008 20:59:47 GMT -5
Oi. That woman is an idiot. While I don't think that she should be arrested for child abuse, she's still being stupid. Why? She left her child, not in anywhere simple, but in New York City, where you can get lost about as quick as you can say "I love New York." Not only that, but she decided it was a bright idea not to leave him a cell phone. She left him several quarters, which, in New York can be mugged off rather quickly along with everything else the kid had gotten at Bloomingdale's. She also thought it was a bright idea to leave the kid trusted to a stranger. Boy oh boy. Furthermore, there's this line, that made me want to shove this woman off a high rise. "Guess what, Ms. Garfinkle: I’d have been devastated. But would that just prove that no mom should ever let her child ride the subway alone?" Could you have put that in a way that sounded more apathetic? I mean seriously? "Oh yeah, sure, I would've been devastated and all that, but I'd still think it's a fine idea!" "Justice Department data actually show the number of children abducted by strangers has been going down over the years. So why not let your kids get home from school by themselves?" Hey! Maybe that's because parents haven't been letting their kids out on their own so much! Common sense is this woman's sworn enemy it seems. You've obviously never been to New York. There are thousands of kids on the Subway, alone, every day. And hardly anyone is ever abducted in broad daylight, where if you scream, a hundred different people will hear you. I'd rather leave my kid alone in Manhattan than, say, Winchester, Virginia, where anyone can pull up and take you away with no witnesses.
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Post by beautyfr.pain on Oct 21, 2008 17:53:57 GMT -5
Oh, the lady wrote an article in reader's digest about it..it was a lot more articulate then her ones online. She made getting over the devastation of a missing child sound like cake. However, i kind of agree with her to SOME extent. I think people are too easily scared nowadays of kidnap/rape/etc. but I don't think it's necessary for him having to know how to navigate nyc at the age of 9. I'm sure other kids/teenagers do, but they're probably older and more responsible.
It's quite obvious that things are different today. My dad could drive his motorcycle around his tiny malaysian village and buy off the local police officer with a quarter three and a half decades ago, while my mom freaked about because my brother started walking home from his high shool...five blocks from my house. Even he goes a few extra blocks through a quiet neighborhood so no one would see him, although I think that makes you more susceptible to kidnap..?
I live in the fourth most populated city in the US (probably third if they counted all the illegal immigrants..) which is pretty "dangerous", although probably not as much as NY does. and I'm lucky my parents trust me and give me a lot of responsibilities. My parents let me go to the mall AND concerts unsupervised with a friends or two when I was 12, while one of my other friends can't do anything without a chaperone. (when she told her mom this, she said that my parents were irresponsible and don't love me as much as she loves her -___-) This one parent is an article I read (that i can't find..) mentioned that the only time she seperates from her son at the mall is when they want to go to two different fast food places in the food court, and even then, she's freaking out silently. I think parent shouldn't be teaching "don't talk to strangers" but that when you need help, it's ok to talk to someone trustworthy. it's up to the parent to teach them whether or not Mr. Hobo-in-the-alley is going to help or not.
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Post by travellingfay on Oct 22, 2008 0:42:25 GMT -5
For that matter, I may be mistaken, but I believe that the majority of sexual and physical assaults are committed by people one KNOWS. That WAY more kids are molested or abused by people they know than by total strangers.
Certainly the people I know whom I know to have been assaulted or abused have all been hurt by people they knew, not by random axe-wielding strangers.
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Female_Revan
penguin
I like Star Wars more than you.WAAAAAAAY more.
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Post by Female_Revan on Feb 16, 2009 20:42:26 GMT -5
I think it's stupid that parents won't let kids outside of the house without supervision. I mean, I understand if your gonna go to a place where a millions of people are gonna be at, but if your just walking down the street, it's just plain stupid. The reason why parents are so kriffing freaked out is because of the kriffing media. The media focuses on this stuff too much. In fact, they focus on it SO much that even I'M scared of it. And I'm just a kid. Way to go media. You've scarred a kid for life. And everytime you talk about this type of stuff, you make the scar deeper.
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yEaYeAbOi
penguin
Stupidity is contagious!
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Post by yEaYeAbOi on May 25, 2009 20:29:29 GMT -5
I don't think leaving your child in a big-butt city is child abuse. However it is still idiotic and stupid. That little girl could've been kidnapped. It could also psychologically scarr the woman's child as well. I mean, what 9-year-old wouldn't be scared if he/she was left alone in a big city.
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Post by Dutchy on Nov 2, 2009 13:19:03 GMT -5
I don't live in a city so I guess that's different for me but my parents would let me go somewhere like 5 miles away from home on my bike without a problem and it's kind of normal here. I think I would let my children have the same freedom but if I'd live in the city I wouldn't, going on a bike or sitting in a train or bus full of strangers brings some different dangers along.
I wouldn't take the woman to court but I'd just simply tell her that it's not safe, personally i get the feeling a lot of Americans try to go to court whenever they don't have the same thoughts about different subjects
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