|
Post by fullmetalavatar on Nov 13, 2006 20:26:24 GMT -5
One can still accurately reconstruct the original text, and the Bible translations agree by 99% and there are no major doctrines that are differentiated in any possible translations that you will be able to find, with the exception of probably the Jehovah's Witness translation. Tertius, have you read the Bible in the original languages? Where do you get this "99% agreement in translations" fact? I've translated quite a few ancient texts into modern languages (not the Bible, but I have friends who work in those fields), and there is always considerable variation between the ancient text and modern translation, not to mention between the translations of various scholars -- all depending on the theories and beliefs of the translator(s) in question. If syntax, vocabulary and grammar weren't problem enough, there's also the problem of cultural translation, because what have meant one thing to the ancients may mean something entirely different to us. If we just look at the New Testament Gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John (assuming they even were the authors of the gospels) didn't write in English, the texts, as you know were written in Koine Greek, maybe partly in Aramaic, in the cultural idiom of 1st century AD Hebrew males. I don't know about anyone else here but that's not my mother tongue or my cultural milieu, and in any attempt to translate into my mother tongue and cultural milieu somethings will be lost, somethings will be misunderstood, and something will get tacked on by the translator that the the author had never dreamed of. And then, as Grandi (thank you, Grandi) pointed out, even if everyone had the same translation there's the matter of interpretation. Every Christian sect can pick out chapters and verses to support why they're the one True Church -- then you have to ask whose True, and whose just true, and whose wrong, and that is what religious wars, literal and metaphorical, are fought on. There's also the issue of the canonization of the Bible -- because it wasn't always one thick book. The Old Testament for Catholics and Protestants doesn't even have the same number of books, with 47 and 39 books respectively. And this whole misconception about there not being an explanation for human morality within the evolution discourse -- and there is, but that is, in fact, too complicated to go into here, and yes, it is still highly debated, but that is the beauty of science, there's room for error and correction -- I was suddenly reminded of a line in one of our favorite shows: Man in Crowd: Can your science explain why it rains? Sokka (annoyed): Yes! Yes, it can! And although I don't agree with those particular theories, they are there.
|
|
|
Post by thedudeishere on Nov 15, 2006 19:15:32 GMT -5
One can still accurately reconstruct the original text, and the Bible translations agree by 99% and there are no major doctrines that are differentiated in any possible translations that you will be able to find, with the exception of probably the Jehovah's Witness translation. Tertius, have you read the Bible in the original languages? No, but I'm learning Koine Greek and I plan to learn Hebrew and Aramaic. Excuse me. I meant to say that, when textual criticism is applied, 99% of the verses in the Bible can be completely constructed as to what they were originally were. Textual criticism is an active science. There are 5,400 Greek New Testament manuscripts (an incredible number, since, as a comparison, Tactitus' Annals only has four incomplete manuscripts, and Josephus' Jewish Antiquities only has about 12. Why do I never hear people complaining about how these were extensively corrupted outside of things like the Tesimonium Flavianum?) Also, Furthermore, 4,999 out of 7,947 verses in the Bible are completely variant-free. Heck, as far as major doctrines of the Bible, even Bart Ehrman (the famous author who wrote the Orthodox Corruption of Scripture) admits that most of the New Testament can be reliably reconstructed to the original and that no major doctrines are altered by variations. As for translations, none of the major doctrines (such as the divinity of Jesus, his atonement, etc.) are effected by textual or translational issues, so when it comes to the bulk of what Christianity actually is, very little is effected by translations. I myself try to read more than one version and like to do social research into the verses that I read. As for translation issues, you are right that many things can be changed because of different translations. I Corinthians 13:34-37 comes to mind as an example. Reading many translations, one gets the impression that Paul is saying that women can't speak in the church. However, there is literally an untranslated word here that most versions don't even bother to translate, and the only version that does translate it (the Amplified version) translates it as "What!?" The end result is that Paul is quoting the views of the Corinthians (Koine Greek has no quotation marks), and he goes on to strongly disagree with this viewpoint. However, the failure for most translators to translate that one word has led to a lot of repression of women in churches. However, things like this are a red herring to whether or not the core tenets of Christianity are true. You can bring them up if you wish, but you are changing the issue to debating smaller and more debatable doctrines in Christianity instead of the major doctrines that we know for a fact have not been altered in the original texts. I agree with this completely. That's why I plan on buying books such as Bruce Malina's and Richard Rohrbaugh's Social-Science Commentary on the Book of John and why I always read commentaries from scholars when I read my Bible. It really helps a lot when discerning what certain things mean and why. True. I don't really know what you mean by "maybe partly" in Aramaic though. The only theories that I'm particularly familiar with are things like an Aramaic Matthew (the Ebionites used an edited Aramaic version of Matthew) and and Aramaic proto-Matthew. Also, some theorize that the hypothetical Q document might have originally been in Aramaic. There are lots of phrases in the Pauline epistles that do translate easily into Aramaic though (which is actually evidence of them being earlier traditions that Paul borrowed from when writing his letters). If you could show me some resources that talk about part of the gospel autographs being written in Aramaic, I would appreciate it. That is true. But scholarship can go a long way towards bridging the gap between our world and the world that the gospels were written in. And as I said to Grandi, some interpretations are more informed than others. This is nothing more than a red herring. Red herring to whether or not Christianity is true. Red herring. Many of the books in the Old Testament that are in the Catholic Bible aren't as reliable as our other books. Bel and the Dragon, which is a supposed part of the Book of Daniel, has a pun that can only occur in Greek, and since the original was written in imperial Aramaic, Hebrew, and Chaldean, it can't be a valid part of the Book of Daniel, but a later assertion. Likewise, I and II Maccabees make many historical errors that the Book of Daniel and others do not. Furthermore, the Catholic Bible admits that these books aren't as reliable; that's why the Catholics refer to them as Deuto-canonical books (extra-canonical). I would normally respond to the charge about evolution and morality, but you yourself have said that you do not wish to get into it, and I myself find it annoying when I say that I don't want to get into a certain issue only to have somebody else respond to the issue that I said I didn't want to get involved in. So I will not.
|
|
|
Post by beautyfr.pain on Nov 15, 2006 20:50:05 GMT -5
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Christianity is a religion, by definition. And by yours, too. You are doing things so that God accepts you into Heaven, correct? That forgiveness you work for is the only way he won't condemn you for the original sin. As a Christian, we know that God has forgiven us because we have chosen to believe that Jesus is God's son and that he died for our sins and rose again three days later. We do good deeds because we believe in God, not because we want him to accept us. We should already know that we are.
|
|
|
Post by fullmetalavatar on Nov 15, 2006 20:51:36 GMT -5
Thank you so much for your thoughtful, intelligent post Tertius! I'm so happy you're learning Koine Greek! Karma to you for that! And making sure to culturally situate it, bravo! (I'm clapping, you just can't hear me ;D). So you meant that there is a close degree of agreement between the numerous ancient copies in the original language (because the Bible is remarkable like that...esp. the OT)? Thanks, that's better, because the idea of that degree of agreement between translations sent me into my philologist-state The "maybe Aramaic" statement only referred to the Aramaic Matthew you already referred to...and then there are little snippets of direct quotations from Jesus that were (and are) still kept in Aramaic, which I'm sure you know about, and then Paul's (for those that don't know, his isn't a Gospel) Aramaic-ism... -- that's all I was referring to. And I completely agree with you that some interpretations are more valid than others, yet at the same time, I have to disagree with you that the fact that there are multiple interpretations is a red herring, because there are/ have been many equally valid interpretations, and that religious sects often become polarized around these varying interpretations. I don't mean to use this to undermine the truth/ beauty of Christianity -- being a Catholic myself -- but only that the Bible has been and continues to subject to very human interpretations. And I don't think it's a red herring to point out this strife between sects, because it is a matter of fact. The Reformation happened, regrettable as the Schism and subsequent violence may be. The same text is used by Papists and Protestants (aside from the Apocrypha...'cause we get purgatory ;D...recently got rid of limbo though...) -- Calvinists, Anglicans, Baptists, Fundamentalists, 7th day adventists, etc. etc. etc. -- and politicians (though Christianity of the last can certainly be called into question) all have interpretations that they feel to be the best and truest, and some (even from varying perspectives) are theologically sound. I'm far too much a post-modernist to not accept the possibility of the multiplicity of valid interpretations. Heck, there are even variations in interpretation within sects. The Bible has been used and abuse, and sometimes these have been based on very really faith. Do differences in translation and interpretation (normally, assuming it's not being used for propaganda...) affect the heart of the message of the Bible? No it doesn't, thank God. But it does affect things like whether or not you believe in the apostolic succession or sola fide, which makes a big difference. And the theories about evolution and morality...thanks. I don't support many of those theories -- but I have colleagues who do. All I meant was that there are ideas about this floating around in academia. Some are more valid than others (mainly the conservative ones dealing with the obvious benefits of not committing incest, murder, etc.) -- humans just have too much culture to chalk up everything to our biology.
|
|
|
Post by mikael on Nov 15, 2006 20:54:03 GMT -5
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs. Christianity is a religion, by definition. And by yours, too. You are doing things so that God accepts you into Heaven, correct? That forgiveness you work for is the only way he won't condemn you for the original sin. As a Christian, we know that God has forgiven us because we have chosen to believe that Jesus is God's son and that he died for our sins and rose again three days later. We do good deeds because we believe in God, not because we want him to accept us. We should already know that we are. Sorry, what type of Christian? You're extremely misinformed if you think all Christian sects believe the same things. For example, the Puritans believed in predestination; That their path was already chosen. I'm not sure if that belief persists today in any form, though. But they certainly didn't believe they were forgiven. And what do you mean by "We do good deeds because we believe in God"? That's like saying "I eat because the Earth revolves around the sun." It's true, yes, but it doesn't make sense. And my entire point is that you shouldn't do them for any reason. If you can find a reason, than you're not doing it for the sake of doing it.
|
|
|
Post by fullmetalavatar on Nov 15, 2006 21:15:16 GMT -5
And my entire point is that you shouldn't do them for any reason. If you can find a reason, than you're not doing it for the sake of doing it. I understand what you mean -- if you need a reason to be good then you're not really being good. I completely agree. As a side note, I checked out your father's work. He's a beautiful writer...and the themes remind me of Blake (I LOVE WB). Thanks for the link. For those of you who haven't tried the link, I highly recommend it. The logic behind being Christian and doing good, at least for me, is that because God is love, and you love God, you are filled with love yourself. From this love springs the desire to help and do good for others, not out of the hope for reward but for love of them. As you learned from the example of your father, Christians learn from the example of Christ (along with our parents, respected family/ friends, who "act as Christ" to us). I don't prescribe to the judgmental, didactic brand of Christianity, so I can't help you there... but this is how I see it.
|
|
|
Post by KyoshiWarrior on Nov 15, 2006 22:00:55 GMT -5
i am a christian...im happy to be one.....and to me God is the SAME GOD!!!!christians,catholics,jewish and muslims beleive in the SAME GOD!!!!!!!!anyways......the bible is my friend!!!!and it isnt true dat if you dont read the bible dat you go to hell....well guess what???.....NO DATS A LIE...you only go to hell when you sin and do bad things....when you accept jesus as your savior and follow everything and do the right thing then that will be your passport to heaven!of course we are humans and we tend to do some stuff that are not good...like we lie or sometimes we steal things or we disobey ur parents and the other laws in the ten commandments...but God still loves us!!every time i feel like im doing something wrong i say sorry to him....i pray to him and he answers me.....he has blessed me alot and we all owe him our lives!!
God loves us so much that he gave up his one and only son so that if every one that believes in him shall not persih but have everlasting life....and that little sentence is part of the bible....IF YOU WANT TO LOOK IT UP FINE ITS JOHN 3:16.....
I dont celebrate halloween cause to me its demonic...i stopped celebrating this year and i felt guilty for doing halloween but God will forgive me if i say sorry and i did....to some people its not demonic but what ever....its there opinion......
today the world has forgotten about God.....my dad was preaching about that today because he's the pastor and i will like to share this with you.....but dont come and be all angry at me its just my beliefs...in the USA they have taken God out of school.....but what can we do about it.....but its there opinions...in my class one of my friends(she's a christian like me) found a tiny pcket book bible in the desk...and she goes to the teachers and tells him that she found a bible and that she's gonna return it to the rightful owner.my teacher insists that she give him the bible but she refuses.they argue for about 7 more seconds and finally my friend gives the bible to the teacher....you wanna know what my teacher did to the bible and he knew that there were some people that believed in God.....guess what???.....OUT OF NO WHERE HE TAKES THE BIBLE AND HE THROWS IT INTO THE GARBAGE CAN WITH EVERY SOUL WATCHING HIM DOING THAT!!!and that ruined my day.....its like saying some one taking the oxygen out of the earth and when that happens we all cant breathe and we die....thats how i felt i felt like i died!!!
but anyways the bible comsists of beautiful tales of mesengers of God!!!! Psalms and proverbs tell alot of stuff of how God really loves us!! when i think that everything in my life is going wrong and i feel scared i repeat to my self Psalms 27(The Lord is my light and my salvation.Who Shall i fear??) who shall i fear is a good question....you shouldnt fear no one cause God is with you every where you go and when you feel all alone and afriad like me just remind yourself that God is with you.....
and thank you for taking your time to read this....and you might think im crazy but what ever i dont care if you do!!!
|
|
|
Post by fullmetalavatar on Nov 15, 2006 22:22:27 GMT -5
Your teacher was horribly wrong to throw out that Bible. Even if he/she isn't a Christian it shows horrible cultural insensitivity.
|
|
|
Post by KyoshiWarrior on Nov 15, 2006 22:36:40 GMT -5
Your teacher was horribly wrong to throw out that Bible. Even if he/she isn't a Christian it shows horrible cultural insensitivity. That's what all of my friends thought and my parents....but my friends just stared at him in a way were you wanna run away from them cause they looked like they were gonna attack some one
|
|
Wilderness Writer
Wolf Sokka
Zutarian Propaganda Writer
~Weaver of Words~
Posts: 2,802
|
Post by Wilderness Writer on Nov 15, 2006 22:52:15 GMT -5
I agree. That's a very very bad thing to throw away a Bible in a room full of young people. I would feel the same way if she threw out a Jewish book, or a Catholic prayer book, or any book that represents someone's deeply held beliefs.
Christians are always being bashed for not being tolerant of other people. We're always being told we need to be more accepting. But the problem is that no one is accepting of us. Christians are the whipping boys of the media and of liberal society. We're never to say anything against another way of beliefs, and yet people disrespect Christianity with a flippant sort of casual disgust that reminds me of Nazi Germany.
|
|
|
Post by fullmetalavatar on Nov 15, 2006 23:02:22 GMT -5
^well said, I'd give you karma, but since I just gave some to you in another thread I can't...
When I was an undergrad at a very liberal college the (rather sardonic) running joke was that the first amendment didn't apply to conservatives and Christians. It's depressing when the people who preach equality, freedom of beliefs, and cultural sensitivity resort to bashing the beliefs of a group they wrongfully perceive as the enemy.
|
|
Grandi
Bato
Prince of All Cosmos
Posts: 603
|
Post by Grandi on Nov 16, 2006 2:06:20 GMT -5
Christians are always being bashed for not being tolerant of other people. We're always being told we need to be more accepting. But the problem is that no one is accepting of us. Christians are the whipping boys of the media and of liberal society. We're never to say anything against another way of beliefs, and yet people disrespect Christianity with a flippant sort of casual disgust that reminds me of Nazi Germany. Let's not forget that pretty much every member of Congress and the President calls themself Christian. Let's not forget this society that oppresses you is made up of 80% Christians. So, unless you guys are oppressing yourself...
|
|
Horyo
RP Admin
All your bending are belong to us.
Posts: 2,572
|
Post by Horyo on Nov 16, 2006 2:35:27 GMT -5
My opinon on the Bible?
Humans=imperfection.
It was made by humans. Humans interpret things. Humans misinterpret things. The Bible ins't without flaws.
If God is telling us to walk 20 ft, some walk 19, others 21. Sometimes though, we go to 17 or 25, a big leap.
|
|
|
Post by fullmetalavatar on Nov 16, 2006 3:48:01 GMT -5
So, unless you guys are oppressing yourself... There's a difference between disrespect and oppression -- although some Christian sects do have a history of being oppressed and discriminated against in the US. [wry] And where's the piece of pie for it-depends-on-my-mood Catholic-agnostic-nihilists, like me?[/wry] The post was simply meant to point out the hypocrisy of those that censor others while demanding freedom of belief and cultural understanding for themselves. Everyone has the right to their religious beliefs, or lack thereof -- didactic, preachy atheism is just as obnoxious as didactic, preachy Christianity.
|
|
|
Post by KyoshiWarrior on Nov 16, 2006 14:15:27 GMT -5
i think christians are like the only religion that a majority of people like to bash(im not saying that every one dos but SOME peoples)i know when to stop talking and to talk about God because you know theres some people that can get in a fight or debate with you for saying just a small sentence...i only speak when they want my opinion and when they actually need it but not randomnly out of no where
|
|