Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 9, 2007 20:21:26 GMT -5
please get off of zuko people... he has his own threads.
anyways, anyone got an alternate story route for Iroh besides the militant route? one that has not been discussed already would be preferable.
EDIT: I sitll believe that all my statements have been 100% logical and that i have logically refuted everything yiceman has said...
but it looks like i my have to humble myself...
Lets just say i know a guy, who knows a guy, who knows ALLOT. and this guy I know, said he was almost positive that Iroh would be joining the gaang relatively soon...
however this was not directly from the source, but rather speculation biased on partially complete info from the source...
... not sure how i feel about this. If im wrong, that means that Iroh will be joining the gaang, and thus he will get more screen time. but i really dont want to see everything Iroh went through be for nothing... really I dont see much point in both Iroh and zuko joining the gaang. anything Iroh could do for aang, Zuko could do... anything zuko could do for aang, Iroh could do...
it sorta belittles both their characters IMO.
well just have to wait and see.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 9, 2007 21:09:31 GMT -5
Logically refuted? You yelled at people for talking about Zuko until the discussion was killed. Hard to respond to that...
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 9, 2007 21:38:59 GMT -5
...
i mean all of the on-topic stuff... you know, the stuff about Iroh and his future story in S3... like about how the pars were blown away from the inside and how,even though iroh could, there would be no reason for him to do that with his bare hands as he could just bend one bar and walk out... all the forshadowing i talked about... stuff like that.
you gotta admit... the whole, "Zuko should unite the whole of the FN and become firelord" thing was getting way off-topic.
who will become firelord at the end really does not effect what Iroh does now. if you want to drag up the old firelord thread, be my guest.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Dec 9, 2007 21:42:24 GMT -5
Well my entire reason for not supporting this theory is directly related to my support of the other theory so it made sense to bring it up. Neh?
And regardless of how Iroh broke out, we must look at the basics. What really truly makes more sense, in regards to emphasizing Iroh's working out? He's building up muscles to use them when no one else can bend? Or he wants to look good?
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Alleluia
Kyoshi Mai
Earthbending General of the Zutarian Army
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Post by Alleluia on Dec 9, 2007 22:00:56 GMT -5
EDIT: I sitll believe that all my statements have been 100% logical and that i have logically refuted everything yiceman has said... but it looks like i my have to humble myself... Lets just say i know a guy, who knows a guy, who knows ALLOT. and this guy I know, said he was almost positive that Iroh would be joining the gaang relatively soon... however this was not directly from the source, but rather speculation biased on partially complete info from the source... *Thats* logical? O.o
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 9, 2007 23:59:20 GMT -5
Alleluia: sorry, i know what i said must have sounded pretty confusing... but i cant spoil what is not mine to give away... and he really was pretty vague anyways, so still pretty up in the air. yiceman: i know you think Iroh will not come out of retirement because you think zuko will be firelord... but i have never seen the connection you are trying to make there... as i have said before, If Iroh were to rise a rebellion within the FN, and at the end the FN people looked to Iroh for what the next move would be... all Iroh would have to do would be to give Zuko his support, say he had been with Iroh and the avatar all along, and that he would be by zuko as advisor... and zuko would eaisly be firelord due to Iroh's confidence. and in the firelord thread, we were able to agree that Zuko would become firelord only with the approval/vote of confidence of Iroh... Iroh taking up a militant role and zuko being firelord are not connected. either one can happen without the other. also, the next time you bring up Iroh's new bod. please address the symbolism/forshadowing of it and how there would be no reason for Iroh to cause so much damage with his bare hands... otherwise we just end up repeating ourselves. EDIT: I wont be able to give any more proper responses untill finals are over.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Dec 10, 2007 22:28:05 GMT -5
Ok, connection...what do you think about what Iroh said in The Avatar and the Fire Lord? He told Zuko right out that Zuko was the ONLY one who could redeem the Fire Nation. So he needs to lead them to a better world, right?
Two scenarios, we've narrowed it down to, to make the connection. (assuming Zuko is Fire Lord at the end, for these both)
1. Iroh rallies the troops, wins the war, and presents the throne to Zuko as a prize.
2. Zuko wins the throne for himself.
What is more narratively meaningful? Which is more inspirational? What has the bigger impact?
Iroh GIVING Zuko the throne, like a charity? Like Zuko isn't the heir? Iroh gave up his claims when he bent knee to Ozai.
ZUKO is the current heir. His right is stronger than Iroh's. So now Iroh is going to GIVE it to Zuko?
Bad bananas.
Symbolism and foreshadowing of Iroh working out? It foreshadows his breaking out. It symbolizes? Nothing. He freaking did a few push ups. You put way too much emphasis on this.
No reason for the extensive bar damage? Do you think Mike and Bryan meticulously plotted out every move of his break out like that?
Why do you think we DIDN'T see it? To amaze us. So we go "Holy crap, how'd he do that?"
And gaping hole in the bars is more impactful than one bar bent out of place.
But if you seriously insist on arguing logistics of something I doubt the creators spent two seconds thinking on, ok.
I imagine Iroh didn't bend the bars. He's too big to squeeze through anyway. I imagine he struck the bars in key points to weaken them until they broke.
Now, how could Iroh have firebended out of there? Any flames would go right through metal bars. There was no sign of melting.
It would have taken a massive explosion...and anything that big would not be possible for him to do in that confined space. If it was big enough to do that to bars, it would have broken the stone wall. Not to mention it would have blown him sky high.
Just imagine the scene in your head. He would have had to make an explosion two feet away from his body. Anything that we've seen of firebending would have just gone through the bars.
It would require a type of explosive bending we've never before witnessed. As such, it doesn't really exist until seen in canon. I don't see how normal fire could have broken that without some kind of massive impact that probably would have roasted Iroh.
Also consider this...why would Iroh build his muscles for bending? Remember what he said in the VERY first episode?
Firebending has nothing to do with muscles. It's all about breathing. Working out like that would not effect his bending.
So why get buff? I'm sorry, but your explaination that it's to look good is really quite silly, so I must conclude he physically broke himself out.
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Post by decoy on Dec 12, 2007 10:57:39 GMT -5
You take care of your body and your body will take care of you. You should think about giving more credit to physique. If a tea drinking, duck eating Uncle Iroh can easily take ten fire benders, how many could a Macho-Man Iroh defeat? Besides, better physical shape can help increase lung capacity.
As for breaking out of the cell, we've already scene the explosive effect of bending lightening. Not to mention that the entire midsection of the cell was disintegrated. I highly doubt he "struck the bars in key points until they were weakened."
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lilabby
Katara
I LOVE WINTER!!!!
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Post by lilabby on Dec 12, 2007 15:44:55 GMT -5
As for breaking out of the cell, we've already scene the explosive effect of bending lightening. Not to mention that the entire midsection of the cell was disintegrated. I highly doubt he "struck the bars in key points until they were weakened." Yeah, I never thought of that. He probably did use that lightning thing to break out of the cell. Then since it was the day of the eclipse he just used his strength and fighting skills to take down the guards. That's probably the reason he was getting all buffed up, he was planning on escaping on the day of the eclipse knowing that all the guards would loose their bending he started working out so he could fight without using his bending!!
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attonbitus
Blue Spirit
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Post by attonbitus on Dec 13, 2007 10:11:00 GMT -5
I'll just point out that losing the extra belly fat makes Iroh more mobile which in turn allows him more options in a fight, ie being able to chase down someone, or out maneuver them. The body building wasn't necessarily needed for the break out, but rather for something else he has planned. I'd laugh if Iroh did it so he could do some "blue spiriting" of his own .
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Post by conspiracytheorist on Dec 15, 2007 1:08:37 GMT -5
Here's the real reason we were treated to a bunch of clips of Iroh beefing up:
That's what people do in prison. ;/
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
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Post by yiceman on Dec 15, 2007 1:19:55 GMT -5
He probably got a few tattoos as well.
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 17, 2007 15:06:19 GMT -5
well, finals are finally done... lets get back innit. Ok, connection...what do you think about what Iroh said in The Avatar and the Fire Lord? He told Zuko right out that Zuko was the ONLY one who could redeem the Fire Nation. So he needs to lead them to a better world, right? good point, but that scene was mainly Iroh going for dramatic effect. shock zuko into realizing his destiny. but agan, you are making "redeem the firenation" too broad and specific a term. as ive said before, Zuko redeeming his family would be much better served, both practically and symbolically, by renewing the sozin/roku connection with aang and teaching him firebending. If Ozi is exposed as a tyrant and all his acts in war and policy are considered null and void, that would make his disownment of zuko null and void. so in this way, zuko's political right is restored. but that would also make Iroh's political right restored. But when Iroh sees that Zuko is fufulling his destiny, he will tell both Zuko and the people, that zuko is a better man for the job. not pitty, just honesty. (this would be in part on account because of Zuko's youth i belive.) also, do you still really think that zuko is going to be out rallying the troops instead of teaching aang firebending and looking for his mother? because if so, 312 will prove you to be dead wrong no, you just think i put so much emphasis on this because you ignore other means of forshadowing such as the reactions of all the guards around him. S1 Zuko's crew, meing, the guards in the cannon comics, "one-man army" his raw power not being for nothing, ect... ya, they did it for the audience. not to specifically have us anylize HOW he did it, but to get the point across that this is one badass MOFO... why would they go through the effort of getting that point accross if Iroh was gonna run off to some tea shop, or spew words of wisdom to Zuko as he did S1-S2. No, they showed us his "badass MOFOness" for a reason... they are going to show it again. ya, i know im cutting some of what you said about the specifics of the bars, but let me just sum it up to save space... Lightening. it explodes, and we have seen his lightening cover a large area and we have seen him do it in confined spaces (escape form Di-Li) again, it is you who are placing too much focus on the specifics of why he got buff. If you look at Iroh from the point of view of a common avatar fan and ask yourself, "what are M&B trying to convey here?" the answer is the same as the destruction and mayham that zuko say at the prison. Iroh is a badass MOFO, and you dont want to get in his way.... we were all thinking it. now ask yourself why M&B would want to convey that? the answer is, because they are going to show us it again. but, if you want to look at it from the POV as if the avaverse was real. If i look at buff Iroh from the point of view of a common FN solder, i will think. "dang, that doesnt look like the disgraced mad-man we have heard about from FN propaganda, that looks like the legend, the dragon of the west." I also had a conversation with dongbufeng's host Dylan. and i think i got him warming to this theory. I answered every question he had... sometime tomorrow ill probability screen said chat for spoilers and perhaps post it here. conspiracytheorist: thats what people do in prison because if they look weak, they get shanked by their fellow inmate.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Dec 17, 2007 21:14:16 GMT -5
Let me quote what Iroh said in The Avatar and The Fire Lord.
"But, there is a bright side. What happened generations ago can be resolved now. By you. Because of your legacy, you ALONE can cleanse the sins of our family AND THE FIRE NATION. Born in you, along with all the strife is the power to restore balance to the world."
Emphasis mine.
Iroh specifically and literally tells Zuko that he is the ONLY one who can redeem the Fire Nation.
Now, Iroh raising the army? Probably. Leading the army? You know, I could see that for a while, but winning the great victory and becoming the hero again? No, that's where you lose me.
Why? Because it's not his destiny. He clearly told Zuko that Zuko was the one who had to lead the Fire Nation to a better world. To do this, he needs to gain the respect of the Fire Nation people. Helping the Avatar just doesn't seem enough.
So maybe Iroh dies before the end. And Zuko takes up the army as the leader. Because Zuko needs to be their hero, now. That's the way it was spelled out in 306. Zuko is the ONLY one. Your buddy Iroh said it himself.
Which is why I don't like the idea that Zuko needs Iroh's permission to be Fire Lord or take charge. It looses all of it's meaning.
So, now that Zuko's busy for the time being, Iroh probably will gather up an army. But the Dragon of the West retired for a reason. After this war is over, I can't see Iroh happily settling back into a life of politics and governing people. It doesn't fit his story line. It's just not a happy ending for him, in my view.
Now, when I saw Iroh, I right away thought he was going to bust out. I take it that's what everyone else thought. And that happened. End of story.
I'm trying to be nice, but Iroh getting buff to look impressive is still the silliest thing I've heard in a long time >.<
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Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
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Post by Zenjamin on Dec 18, 2007 2:24:28 GMT -5
Let me quote what Iroh said in The Avatar and The Fire Lord. "But, there is a bright side. What happened generations ago can be resolved now. By you. Because of your legacy, you ALONE can cleanse the sins of our family AND THE FIRE NATION. Born in you, along with all the strife is the power to restore balance to the world." Emphasis mine. Iroh specifically and literally tells Zuko that he is the ONLY one who can redeem the Fire Nation. *sighs* i have already addressed multiple ways zuko could serve that redemption outside of a militant action... see above. also, have you seen 312 yet? because if you have, this whole general zuko thing has to stop i cut out the rest of what you said because it can all be addressed with my above two points ant my previous post, but i got to quote your following ... are you fracking kidding me? every time you post you bring this up as if it is the foundation for my argument. yet i have said multiple times that it is a mix of audience POV, foreshadowing, what the writers want to convey, ect... and thats not even counting, what else Iroh would do, the actions of the guards and the respect they have for him, how else the gaang is going to get in to confront Ozi, ect... up until this post, i have addressed every single point you have made... and smacked my forhead as you repeat yourself while glossing over, or outright ignoring, my points. until i get evidence that you are reading and considering what i have to say, im done responding to you. is sick having to repeat myself while you ignore what i say. ill just post every time new information comes up, and it looks like that will be every time the show presents us with something new. (a good way to make sure you are critically considering everything an opposing party has to say, is to quote and respond. other-wise it often comes across as you putting words into the other persons mouth, and selectively responding to their points.)
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