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Post by zukofan21 on Jul 20, 2008 14:15:33 GMT -5
Zuko seemed like the type of child who didn't make friends easily and kept to himself (he still shows that) so his mother saw the need to spend time with him. She didn't need to spend as much time with Azula since she had friends and seemed to be able to occupy herself. But Zuko didn't seem to get into trouble a lot and when he did bad (i.e., the turtleducks) his conscience got to him, so Ursa would not need to punish him as much, because talking to him would make him feel bad. Azula had some... extreme tendencies that Ursa felt needed to be corrected. Most parents would do the same thing she did if they heard a child talking about family death like a joke. So if any wrong was done, Ursa might have been doing the right thing in the wrong way, but I don't think she was neglectful.
There are a lot of 20 30 heck 50 year olds who feel their parents preferred one sibling over another. It doesn't mean it was a justified complaint. They don't understand the fact that you can love two people the same amount, but you treat them differently because they need different things. One child might need a lot of affection but doesn't need as much affection. One might be a gentler spirit whereas the other shows major signs that need to be addressed. Even if you look at the way your parents treat you and siblings, you aren't treated the same unless you have the same general personality. I got LOTS MORE discipline than my brother. Was I loved less? No, I was just more resistant to punishment and more stubborn than my brother. I think it's all in acceptance and being mature enough to understand different treatment doesn't necessarily mean preference.
Sorry about the rant.
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Horyo
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Post by Horyo on Jul 20, 2008 14:20:32 GMT -5
^^Well, we did only see it through Zuko's memory, so we wouldn't have seen her say goodbye to Azula. But Azula knew of her mother's disappearance before Zuko woke up, so maybe she did. Or she spied on the whole banishment or death meeting between Ursa and Ozai. Or it could simply be because she woke up earlier than Zuko. Besides, in the finale we saw how honestly thought that her mother didn't love her. Children don't just go thinking that for no reason. Like she said in the beach, she was well aware of Ursa favoring Zuko over her...and despite her quick reaction to say that she was right, like she also said: it bothered her. It really bothered her. So yeah, I think Ursa could have done better for Azula. And Iroh was pretty quick to judge in the Chase...odd since he believes in 2nd chances. It's just that Azula wanted what Zuko had and took for granted: love. Let's face it, Ozai can't love. He banished his own wife who helped him become Fire Lord for goodness sake. Children can misunderstand a great deal about parents. Azula probably confused Ursa's protection of Zuko for "more love than she ever got." Even from the start she wanted everything, and she didn't realize that Azula did give her love, just not protection because she was protected by her Father. Ursa was busy trying to keep Zuko safe, and proud. She didn't need to worry that same way for Azula, other than her psychotic tendencies. And Iroh knows that Azula is dangerous.
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Maylene
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Post by Maylene on Jul 20, 2008 16:40:08 GMT -5
It's how Ursa ended up making Azula feel. Whether it was intentional or not, it's what got through to Azula that needs to be rectified. Maybe this post on Azula and Ursa can help.
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Post by airnomadlaker on Jul 20, 2008 16:49:03 GMT -5
Ursa loved Azula, but Azula was just a sick and messed up child from the very beginning. She wasn't just a tomboy. She thought of things like, "Azulon is not the firelord he used to be, he'll die soon." She was kind of crazy, and Ursa tried to guide her in the right direction, but Firelord Ozai lasted longer than Ursa, andhis influence sustained on Azula. To Azula, Ursa was the annoying and mean parent that was supposed to shape her, and once she was gone, Azula became even worse.
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Post by azula1 on Jul 20, 2008 20:28:46 GMT -5
I haven't even made it to talking about the finale completely yet.
Azula had the love of the whole FN, but all she really wanted was her mommy. Just like Zuko had to sail the world to get "Ozai's honor", her mother put her through terrible torment.
No wonder Azula had to cling to Ozai and Ty Lee and Mai. Ursa disappeared. Zuko was banished for 3 years. Iroh treated her with scorn. She had no one else. Thats why she has such trust and abandonment issues.
What's the point of having the world if you don't have the love of those closest to you? She had Ozai, probably Zuko, and she thought she had Ty Lee and Mai. But Zuko took Mai from her and Ty Lee picked Mai over her.
She was shocked and crushed at the idea of not going with Ozai to destroy the EK. That was a father & daughter bonding moment if I ever saw one. And she wants to bond with her family. The majority of the time Azula fights alone with Ty Lee and Mai doing their own thing. But in the "Crossroads of Destiny" she specifically asks for Zuko's help. She still probably could've defeated the GAang with just her and the Dai Lee, but she wanted Zuko with her. She's reached out to him several times during the show. I can't think of too many times he's done the same for her. In fact helping her in the "CRD" is probably the only time.
Yes, Ursa did a number on her. As far as Azula's concerned she's got it going on: she's the best firebender in the world, she's beautiful and brilliant, and she's a princess. For most people that would be enough. But all she sees is Zuko getting praised by mommy for "trying hard and doing his best" while she is the best and gets nothing. Some people believe if you can't get attention by being perfect, then you try getting attention by being bad. Maybe thats why Azula was calculating and bratty.
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Post by zukofan21 on Jul 21, 2008 13:30:06 GMT -5
But to label her as a horrible parent, especially when we only saw her interact with them through Zuko's perspective, and only heard how Azula thought she felt about her? That isn't fair to her.
The way she was portrayed in Zuko Alone didn't show neglect of Azula as it showed how close Zuko and Ursa were. After all, it was Zuko's flashback.
I felt the mirror scene was Azula's conscience getting to her, but I think Ursa probably really felt that way.
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Post by mentalmishaps on Jul 21, 2008 19:09:54 GMT -5
The most telling thing to me was Ursa's: "What is wrong with that child" in Zuko Alone. She was right, but it is clear, especially from Azula's statements in The Beach and the finale, that her opinion on Azula was known. It's also clear that Ursa had done many telling things like that in the past. Even if your child is unhinged, you shouldn't do that to them. If Ursa was a better mother, Azula might have lost some of her monsterish qualities instead of clinging to Daddy and enhancing them.
It goes without saying that Ozai was a bad parent to both Zuko and Azula.
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Post by dragonflly on Jul 22, 2008 0:57:08 GMT -5
My parents said stuff like that to me, it made me stop and think about what I was doing. Why? Because I actually CARED aobut what my parents thought of me, and I was only 8. When parents say things like that they are questioning themselves really, but if you care, you're gonna stop and think.
I don't think Ursa meant it in a negative way towards Azula, just as a question to herself as to how to correct it. Ursa was trying to keep both of her children from accepting Ozai's thirst for power and she was losing one, and she knew it. It was still all how Azula percieved things. The way things are meant as an adult, mean way different things to a kid. And Azula was a bit unstable, even back then, so it's easy to imagine the way things looked to her.
There is no doubt in my mind that Ursa loved both of her children. She and Zuko shared more in common, and therefore shared a bond. Azula was resentful of this bond and acted out immediatley. Negative attention, so she was punished, in turn this punishment lead to "mommy doesn't love me" in Azula's mind. It doesn't meant that Ursa didn't try or spent no time at all with Azula though. She could have, and Azula's unstable attention hog persona kicked in and thought it wasn't enough.
In all I think Ursa's comments were her simply questioning herself as a mother, not putting Azula down. But to a 7 yr old, it could seem different. I think all parents are guilty of doing this at one time or another. Does it mean we don't love our kids, heck no! Mom's are human too, we can make mistakes as well as anyone else. But never underestimate the power of a mother's love for her children!
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asian malaysian
Avatar Kyoshi
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 22, 2008 1:08:28 GMT -5
I think Azula's own halucination probably reveals the truth of the matter. Deep down, Azula knew that her mother had loved her and what she had been trying to teach her as a child all those years ago.
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Post by azula1 on Jul 31, 2008 16:06:27 GMT -5
New Question:
Does anybody have any idea why Ozai had such a mad on for Zuko?
There never seemed to be a defining moment that showed exactly why Ozai would be so willing to kill Zuko at such an early age. It had to be more than just favoring Azula. I've never seen another show where a father hated his own son so.
Unless of course Zuko's not his son....
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 31, 2008 20:58:16 GMT -5
I think Zuko was just never as talented or as ruthless as his younger sister which must have been a major dissapointment to Ozai.
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Post by dragonflly on Aug 2, 2008 22:33:15 GMT -5
^Yep that's pretty much it, Zuko was an embarrassment.
Or maybe it was that he was alot like Iroh. Ozai seemed to be pretty jealous of Iroh and he saw his own child becoming just that. Zuko certainly had different beliefs than Ozai, he questioned things that were considered right in his nation. He also had respect for life, which it seems daddy didn't have.
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historyman12
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Post by historyman12 on Aug 10, 2008 16:02:52 GMT -5
Where's yiceman when you need him? Guess I have to steal his arguments.
Anyway...
Zuko's father burned and mutilated him. That is so much worse than saying "What is wrong with that child?" within earshot. Burned, scarred, and banishment for speaking out at a war meeting vs. Exasperation at a child's behavior. Which is worse? Now, if this is too hard, I recommend you head to a psychologist's.
That's all for now.
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Maylene
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Post by Maylene on Aug 11, 2008 3:19:00 GMT -5
I think Azula's own halucination probably reveals the truth of the matter. Deep down, Azula knew that her mother had loved her and what she had been trying to teach her as a child all those years ago. I don't think that at all. I think that her hallucination of Ursa telling her that she loved her, was her optimistic side that was trying to comfort her. A poor example would be if you had this gut feeling you were being betrayed by a loved one; but you tell yourself, "Oh no. Never. They would never," but you know otherwise. I say this because in the Q/A of the Sozin's Comet book Mike and Bryan had stated, "Azula honestly thought her mother didn't love her." historyman12: Well your argument (and I guess Yiceman's) sounds a lot like when people were griping over the FN4's problems and how it couldn't compare to the Gaang's problems and that they had no right to complain. Sure Zuko was burned and banished. But in the end, he still had Iroh there to guide him (and his mom's "memory"). Who does Azula have? Because the girl just realized that her closest friends didn't care for her; her father obviously cannot love; and she believes her mother doesn't love her. In addition, Iroh doesn't think much of her. (He preached that he believed people should be given a second chance and that he couldn't kill Ozai cuz it would mean more meaningless bloodshed---and YET he didn't hesitate to tell Zuko that she needed to go down in Bitter Work, and he seemed to imply that Zuko should take down Azula at all cost in the finale). So to say that Azula didn't have it bad or even worst is unfair. Because in the end, that banishment on Zuko, turned out to be good for him (Zuko's own words). He had Uncle. That was real and concrete; while Azula had things hollow and empty. And if indeed, Azula had it a lot easier than Zuko, her feelings cannot be pushed aside as insignificant because others take things differently. You can't compare things like that because everyone is different and how they react and how they feel to certain situations are different. Yes Azula is fictional---but even fictional people take things differently.
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Aug 11, 2008 3:58:45 GMT -5
^^ What a person consciously holds to be true and what they subconsciously know to be true can be two separate things. I never doubted that Azula thought her mother hated her. She used her believe that even the people closest to her did not truly love her to justify her treatment of them; that trust was for fools and fear was the only reliable way. With her betrayal, Azula was forced to confront the fact she may have been wrong from the start and had brought about her own isolation. This was the realisation that she could not bear causing her to break the mirror.
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