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Post by azula1 on Jul 16, 2008 18:06:58 GMT -5
Everyone always talks about how Ozai totally messed up Zuko not just physcially, but also mentally, and emotionally. And while all that is totally and completely true. I think the same could be said of Ursa and her treatment of Azula. She may not have burned her face off, but I think she witheld affection from her. Affection a little girl in her formative years needs. But why did Ozai and Ursa do this? The only reason I can think of for Ozai to hate Zuko so thoroughly is that Zuko reminds him of Iroh and Iroh must've been the favored son of Azulon. The kindness that exists in Iroh can clearly be seen in Zuko. Ursa may have witheld affection from Azula because Azula was a tough tomboy who wore military style clothes as a child and burnt the doll Iroh sent her as a gift. Ursa just couldn't relate to her. Lets face it, Azula isn't like a regular fairy tale type princess who wears pretty dresses and worries about marrying princes, and does nothing but plan balls all day long. She's tough and hardcore, a straight up soldier, and every bit Ozai's favorite. The only time you ever see Azula be girly is in "The Beach" and getting her hair done that time she tells Zuko to go to the meeting. Ozai favors Azula cause she's like him and Ursa favors Zuko cause he's like her. But thats no reason for either of them to shun the other. We don't know for sure how much "parenting" either of them did. I'm fairly convinced that Li & Lo did the hands on (nannying) stuff. Unless they came on board once Ursa "disappeared". And for all of Ursa's sweetness with Zuko she still smothered him to the point he had no friends his own age. I was disappointed that both in the "Zuko Alone" flashbacks and when he went home that there wasn't a single male friend of his. But then it's not surprising since Zuko's such a momma's boy. No wonder Iroh had to go with him when he was banished as he had no one else who knew him who could back him up. When Zuko is off spending time with mommy, Azula is off independently making friends of her own- say what you will about the "Mean Girls" type of relationship they have at least Azula had Mai and Ty Lee for longer than Zuko's going to have the GAang. It's even more telling that Ursa has to urge Zuko to play with the other Angels since they're the only kids his age around. Even in "The Beach" you can see them all fall into their old roles when they play footybeach volleyball. Azula comes up with the plan of attack and the rest follow their roles exactly as expected. You can tell they've done this alot. What do you think was Ursa a good mommy to Azula? And is Ozai a good daddy to Azula? We never see them together. We've been told they're close but can anyone really call themselves close to Ozai? There's no comparison scene of Ozai and Azula together like the "Zuko Alone" flashbacks. So it's hard to tell what kind of relationship they have.
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Post by firenationkuzon on Jul 16, 2008 19:02:59 GMT -5
Hmm... I think it may be just that a lot of the whole royalty thing plays into the situation. From what I've seen, it seems like Fire Lords (at least, Azulon and Ozai) treat their sons on a very formal level. Maybe it's just because we didn't get to see Azulon's treatment of Iroh, but in Zuko Alone it looked like Azulon spoke (if he even did speak) to Ozai in a very businesslike (?) tone. He says something like, "Get the boy (Zuko) out of my sight. Now tell me what you want." Sorta reminiscent of the coldish tone that Ozai talked to Zuko in during the eclipse. Ozai likes Azula simply because they think alike and understand each other and their ways of thinking, and also because Ozai had something to show in compensation for Zuko's less than prodigious abilities, not necessarily because Ozai had a parental love for Azula. That's another reason why Ozai didn't like Zuko so much, simply because in his eyes Zuko was a failure (lucky to be born? ) The royalty thing might play a role again in why Zuko didn't have any other male friends his age. It was probably expected that royalty should only associate with other royalty, and so it would've been weird for Zuko to be making friends with "commoners". On the other hand, it made perfect sense for him to make friends with Ty Lee (Royal Fire Nation Academy for Girls) and with Mai (daughter of a high-ranking official). Heh... one of the things I really liked about "Zuko Alone" was how much Zuko took away from his mom's love. In a world where he had a disapproving dad and a sadistic and sociopathic sister, his mom was really the one source of love and encouragement for him (since Iroh was gone at Ba Sing Se). She taught and explained to him some of the things that defined his character, like his struggles and how he never gives up even in the face of failure. Ursa also sacrificed a lot just to save Zuko's life after Azulon told Ozai to kill him. I guess Ursa just never understood Azula, like you mentioned. But then again, I don't blame her... perhaps only someone like Ozai to understand Azula... So in summary, I think Ozai doesn't qualify as anything like a father... I think he saw his children only as bloodlines or as things to show off . On the other hand, I think Ursa was definitely a mother for Zuko, but not for Azula just because she's sort of psycho. Hehe.
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Post by dragonflly on Jul 16, 2008 23:40:18 GMT -5
^^I don't really think we can make a fair assuptions about Azula and Ursa. It seemed as though Ursa loved BOTH of her children, and I don't think that Ursa treated Azula any different. I think that Azula was punnished for her wrong doings and that is whay SHE believes Ursa didn't love her like Zuko. Ozai praised her for her behavior and Ursa punished, see a problem here? It's easy for a child to take punishment and mistranslate it. Zuko did.
I'm sure Ursa did the best she could with the confines on the Fire Nation's expections all around her. And I'm sure that she was disappointed at the path her little girl was taking, but if Azula wasn't willing to try to understand Ursa's teaching, then no matter what Ursa did, Azula would still think mommie didn't love her.
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fuego
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Post by fuego on Jul 17, 2008 1:23:44 GMT -5
In overall parenting...some could argue that both Ozai and Ursa they were good parents and just that the way of there parenting skills were up to eleven. I mean most the arugments would be most direct at the father and yet he behave like most father...like don't talking back to them...I'm pretty sure we have seen the ideology of Ozai in some of our fathers....without the actions of course.
and have to agree with dragonfly...we don't have enough infomation to make the argument that Ursa had a favourte or if there kids were treaded differently. Azula in general may fall in the line know as "daddy little girl" were the girls attention might have been more focus on the father then mother. though Sigmund Freud say the same thing but in werid and extended away. Anyway, It seem like who ever was the dominative in the family and just that but dominative in your life is going to be influencial to them. Still that dosen't mean that it just Azula and Ozai but even Zuko and Ozai as well...I mean what was that honor chase for the avatar about...It was about seeking love from his father.
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asian malaysian
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Post by asian malaysian on Jul 17, 2008 3:25:34 GMT -5
Apparently, Ozai's response to the thought of having to kill his own son was "Good luck to him!" so that pretty much seals his Bill Cosby Father's Day award. Im letting Ursa cop a walk on Zuko's account.
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Post by azula1 on Jul 17, 2008 13:00:24 GMT -5
We can hardly mention Ozai and Ursa without mentioning Iroh and Lu Ten. Lu Ten is obviously someone we'll never meet, but Iroh was devastated at his loss. Not something you'd expect if Ozai lost Zuko. We can assume that Iroh was much more of a hands on father than Ozai ever was.
In "The Beach" flashbacks we see what looks to be Ozai, Ursa, what looks to be Iroh and two (or more) little children. One is definately Zuko but at different points it could be thought that one is Azula and the other Lu Ten. I would've thought though that Lu Ten would be much older than Azula and Zuko for him to be killed a few years later in the "Zuko Alone" flashbacks. But it all shows them together as a happy family. Even "The Storm" flashback of the two happy children playing (Zuko & Azula) and Ozai watching is supposedly set at that same beach. (Some people try to purge the idea of Zuko & Azula & Ozai ever having any happy times together by fan wanking that it's Zuko & Iroh & Lu Ten, but the purpose of "The Storm" flashback is to show Zuko's sadness at his lost relationship with his dad. If it's Iroh's hand on his back the flashback loses it's purpose. Plus if it was Iroh they'd have shown his face since hiding Ozai's looks was a big deal in the 1st and 2nd seasons.)
Iroh's relationship with Ozai is also interesting because in all these times he mentions "My brother", he never mentions him by first name and never says anything that isn't formal, distant, and polite. He doesn't speak of him fondly. I guess the dislike of each other is mutual.
Which of course leads me to thinking Azulon wasn't the best of dads either. We already know he's the Worst Grandfather Ever! Since he ordered Ozai to murder Zuko because Ozai was disrespectful to Iroh's loss. No wonder he burned Zuko in the face for speaking out of turn and not fighting the Agni Kai. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Ozai doesn't know any other way to parent. What does Azulon have against Zuko too? Could Ozai's disdain of Zuko stem from something Azulon said or did?
I was hoping that at some point in the series Zuko would break the cycle of family hatred they have and reach out to his sister. But that probably won't happen. It's truly a shame because with Azula's cracker jack military mind and wicked firebending skills and Zuko's heart and compassion they'd be an unstoppable team. But all the whole First Family of Fire is destined for is a broken home.
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Post by spiritmage234 on Jul 18, 2008 12:10:39 GMT -5
Well, on Ozai's part. Yeah. He is a pretty crappy dad to Zuko. And, during the conference in "Zuko Alone", Azulon, - even though he may seemed to be the current ruthless ruler of the Fire Nation - he does have great respect for Iroh, since he was his first son. I mean, he blantantly said, "I will not betray my first born, especially after he just lost his first born" when Ozai tried to coax a position as the next in line. If anything - in my opinion - I would think that Azulon never expected for Ozai to seriously consider killing Zuko. I would think that he was using that to teach Ozai about some family values, with the fact that you can't betray your own offspring, no matter how ruthless you may be. But, that method obviously didn't work for Ozai. For Ursa, I don't think she was a bad mother to Zuko or Azula. She spent a good deal of time with both of them (Like when they were reading Iroh's letter together), and she tried to get close to both of them. Of course, Azula from a long age had problems, and unfortunately for Ursa, she had to spend even more of her time scolding Azula rather than bonding with Azula.
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Post by azula1 on Jul 19, 2008 10:17:31 GMT -5
Heh... one of the things I really liked about "Zuko Alone" was how much Zuko took away from his mom's love. In a world where he had a disapproving dad I agree, Zuko & Mommy are very sweet. I'm critical of both parents, because I think everyone wants to write off Ursa as being the perfect mom when I don't think she did nearly enough with Azula as she could've. Well, on Ozai's part. Yeah. He is a pretty crappy dad to Zuko. And, during the conference in "Zuko Alone", Azulon, - even though he may seemed to be the current ruthless ruler of the Fire Nation - he does have great respect for Iroh, since he was his first son. I mean, he blantantly said, "I will not betray my first born, especially after he just lost his first born" when Ozai tried to coax a position as the next in line. If anything - in my opinion - I would think that Azulon never expected for Ozai to seriously consider killing Zuko. I would think that he was using that to teach Ozai about some family values, with the fact that you can't betray your own offspring, no matter how ruthless you may be. But, that method obviously didn't work for Ozai.
Thats an interesting idea, but both Ozai and Ursa took his ultimatium VERY seriously. Ozai was going to assassinate Zuko without blinking an eye. And Ursa had to ACTUALLY assassinate Azulon to save Zuko's life (too bad we'll never see how it happened. Since Azulon's a firebender and Ursa probably isn't I'll bet it was poison). I forgot to mention this before but Ozai had a point in saying Iroh shouldn't be Fire Lord afterall with Lu Ten dead that means he had no heir and Iroh's much older than Ozai to begin with. This is why royal families usual have an heir and a spare (like Prince William and Harry) and Zuko and Azula. The only way Iroh could've gotten around it was to be FL and then skip Ozai all together and when he dies leave the throne to Zuko. Of course Ozai wouldn't stand for that. He'd either: A. Kill Zuko and put himself on the throne B. Kill Iroh and put himself on the throne (but no way could he do that) C. Kill Zuko and put Azula on the throne D. Kill Iroh and control the throne through Zuko The royalty thing might play a role again in why Zuko didn't have any other male friends his age. It was probably expected that royalty should only associate with other royalty, and so it would've been weird for Zuko to be making friends with "commoners". On the other hand, it made perfect sense for him to make friends with Ty Lee (Royal Fire Nation Academy for Girls) and with Mai (daughter of a high-ranking official). That theory doesn't work too well. If Azula can go to the Royal FN School for Girls then doesn't that mean there's a boys counterpoint? And don't high ranking officials have sons too? My guess is that Zuko doesn't have any friends his own age is because he totally sucks at making them. Things only go 2 ways for him: A. He gets run out of town like in "Zuko Alone" or B. His friends get killed like poor Jet or C. He acts like an emo jerk like at "The Beach" party But I suspect the real reason he doesn't have any friends prior to the last 7 episodes of the series is because the creators wanted to show that only the GAang can be Zuko's true friends. Sucks to be you Ty Lee and Mai.
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Maylene
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Post by Maylene on Jul 19, 2008 16:23:30 GMT -5
You know the same thing goes for Iroh and Azula. Iroh at least acknowledges that Ozai is his brother, but with Azula, he never calls her his niece. He says, "Princess Azula," or "Azula," but never his relation to her.
As for Ursa and Azula. I believe that Azula really does think that Ursa didn't love her as much as Zuko; but whether Ursa played favorites--I would say yes, but I'm gonna wait until tonight to see if anything is revealed to us about their relationship.
Although Azula1 has brought to my attention that Zuko didn't have friends his age, which is true. He went to the Fire Nation Academy, so there must've been nobles there and yet he didn't have friends in Zuko Alone.
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Azula's Flames
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Post by Azula's Flames on Jul 19, 2008 16:57:04 GMT -5
I'd say Ozai mostly the cause of his messed up kids. Of course we all know about his relationship with Zuko but with Azula is a little more of a mystery. I think that Ozai doesnt really love her either shes more like a prize possession which he can show off to everyone and would make a good heir. She was probably born a bit crazy but when her father takes her under his wing and teaches her his ways it just makes it worse, he also spoiled her rotten so to a little, slightly off, child Ursa's treatment of her as a normal child made her think she wasnt loved becuase she was used to being worshiped and having her ego stroaked. Maybe Ursa should have done more to protect Azula from Ozai's influance but she was forced to leave for Zuko. Ozai's influance probably got much worse once he was made firelord and he needed an adequate heir mean while Zuko was neglegted.
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Maylene
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Post by Maylene on Jul 19, 2008 20:02:43 GMT -5
What gets me is that from what we know of, Ursa didn't even say farewell to her daughter. That bugs me.
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Post by dragonflly on Jul 19, 2008 21:44:54 GMT -5
^^Well, we did only see it through Zuko's memory, so we wouldn't have seen her say goodbye to Azula. But Azula knew of her mother's disappearance before Zuko woke up, so maybe she did. Or she spied on the whole banishment or death meeting between Ursa and Ozai.
It appeared that Ursa loved both of her children, it was just that she spent most of her time with Azula punishing her for wrong-doing, which was probably praised by Ozai. Zuko didn't seem to need to be punished alot, so looking at it from a 6/7 yr olds point of view it probably seemed as though Ursa loved Zuko more. I don't think Ursa would have done any different if it were Azula's life that was threatened. The words she spoke by the pond with Zuko tells me this. She said "mess with their babies:......I stress the babies, plural, she had two children. That's the way I see it anyway.
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Azula's Flames
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Post by Azula's Flames on Jul 20, 2008 1:26:20 GMT -5
Ursa certainly loved Azula its just the type of person Azula is she doesnt understand what real love is she just wanted to be worshiped and praised not scolded which is what she got from Ursa
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Post by azula1 on Jul 20, 2008 12:02:44 GMT -5
I'm ready to now nominate Iroh as the Worst Uncle Ever For Azula! He might be the best for Zuko, but he just kicked Azula to the curb without any consideration.
Taking the entire series as a whole into account we see Iroh repeatedly try to live his life through Zuko. Let me explain:
Iroh is a complete and total coward when it comes to dealing with Ozai several times during the series he has opportunities to step up and put Ozai down once and for all and at every opportunity he wimps out. Yup, the Dragon of the West (another sham title) is a WIMP! Here are the examples:
1. If Iroh had stood up to Ozai ten years ago and kept him from becoming FL half the crap in the series wouldn't have happened.
2. He didn't stand up for Zuko during the Agni Kai when Ozai burned off half his face. He certainly stepped in when Zhao tried to burn Zuko behind his back. But try to stop Ozai? Zuko was on his own. Tough luck about the eye kid, might want put some burn cream on that.
3. In the finale, with the end of his beloved Earth Kingdom at stake the GAang beg him to fight Ozai and he finally admits that he can't beat Ozai and that he doesn't want history to judge him as a power grubbing traitor fighting brother vs brother. He fears that they'll have to kill each other. In actuallity I believe Iroh is scared poopless of Ozai and doesn't want to get schooled.
Yet, his reasoning is flawed because as soon as he said it he turns right around and encourages Zuko to fight Azula (how is brother vs sister less bad than brother vs sister?) Or does he truly believe that Zuko vs Azula won't be a battle to the death? (I'm of 2 minds on this- Zuko said over and over again that Aang would have to kill the Father Lord, but he barely brings up Azula and doesn't ever mention wanting/needing to kill her. Afterall when she asked him straight up in "The Beach" if he had a probably with her he said no. I hope they both take some comfort in that. And curiously we don't see her in prison at the end of the series. Did Zuko banish her? Did Azula get away? Is she in the tower of the FN palace locked up but being cared for by Li & Lo & Ty Lee (I bet Ty Lee wouldn't hold a grudge) in better accomadations than Ozai?)
And he continually tries to pit Zuko vs Azula throughout the show. He did it in "Bitter Work" by saying that she was crazy and needed to go down. And in the 2nd season premiere, Iroh in saving Zuko redirects Azula's lightning, belly bumps her, and tosses her overboard. Way to stand up to a little 14 year old girl Dragon of the West, bet that makes you feel like a man! I wish that once in the entire series we'd have seen him stand up to Ozai like that.
For all of Iroh's wisdom, he didn't even acknowledge or try any of that for his neice. Maylene is right he never acknoweldges Azula as family either. I think Iroh is secretly a little jealous of Azula for conquering Bai Sing Sei in a week when it took him years just to break through the outer wall.
And calling out the entire White Lotus society to save Bai Sing Sai (or really just his precious tea shop) strikes me as kind of selfish.
So like I said Iroh does nothing but try to prop Zuko up and make him into someone who won't let his younger sibling walk all over like Ozai does him. Cause Iroh doesn't have the balls to do it himself. Worst Uncle for Azula EVER!
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Maylene
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Post by Maylene on Jul 20, 2008 12:19:10 GMT -5
^^Well, we did only see it through Zuko's memory, so we wouldn't have seen her say goodbye to Azula. But Azula knew of her mother's disappearance before Zuko woke up, so maybe she did. Or she spied on the whole banishment or death meeting between Ursa and Ozai. Or it could simply be because she woke up earlier than Zuko. Besides, in the finale we saw how honestly thought that her mother didn't love her. Children don't just go thinking that for no reason. Like she said in the beach, she was well aware of Ursa favoring Zuko over her...and despite her quick reaction to say that she was right, like she also said: it bothered her. It really bothered her. So yeah, I think Ursa could have done better for Azula. And Iroh was pretty quick to judge in the Chase...odd since he believes in 2nd chances. It's just that Azula wanted what Zuko had and took for granted: love. Let's face it, Ozai can't love. He banished his own wife who helped him become Fire Lord for goodness sake.
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