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Post by Elisabeth Blanctorche on Nov 24, 2007 14:37:09 GMT -5
Forget it! It just isn't worth it, since you're always going to discount everything Azula has done in her fights. When you say Azula can only overwhelm her opponets with power, you're flat-out ignoring her ability to manipulate her opponets, such as Zuko, into making mistakes! She's doing exactly what you said she couldn't ― adapting and playing towards the weakness of her opponent! Also, there's another thing I'd like to point out: during that fight against Zuko, Azula was able beat Zuko using minimal force as possible. According to you this is Azula being rigid; however, when it's Iroh doing the exact same thing, it's magicly all of a sudden because he's the supreme master of Fire. Why does this not show that Azula isn't rigid, but it does with Iroh?
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SpiritBender
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Post by SpiritBender on Nov 24, 2007 18:05:46 GMT -5
Lol...No really dude, you need to read my posts more carefully. Many-a-time I have praised Azula's ability to psyche people out and find people's weaknesses. She is a master of strategery , and notoriously finds people's "buttons" and psychological hangups. Tormenting "Zuzu" and making him lose his temper is rather second nature to her, as she's been doing it her whole life. However, what I've really been talking about is her actual firebending style. Yes she did make Zuko lose control, but all that fight really showed is that at the beginning of season 2, Azula could move much quicker and knew more advanced techniques than Zuko, which had never been a point of contention. That whole fight served to illustrate how Azula was a "firebending prodigy" and how she had learned much quicker than him. However, that fight still ultimately came down to Azula using her speed and power to beat Zuko. She didn't really use a minimum of force. She kind of danced around him just to tease him, then shot him right in the face with fire and was about to blast him with lightning before Iroh stepped in and smacked her down. Hardly a minimal use of force, and her ability to psyche people out was rather useless against Iroh. That entire episode, she was able to play on Zuko's insecurities, but Iroh never believed her for a moment. That episode didn't show Azula adapting. It just set up the tricks and tactics that she continued to use throughout season 2. It also pointed out Azula's other great weakness -- her arrogance. During that entire episode, Azula focused on Zuko and messing with his mind, never even stopping to pay her "quitter, loser Uncle Fatso" any mind and notice that he wasn't buying her story for even a moment. Not to mention that Azula never even dreamed Iroh would have knowledge of firebending that renders Azula's most advanced techniques useless, and completely ignored his presence while she toyed with Zuko. Azula would have been taken down right then and there if her presence in season 2 hadn't been critical to the story. Anyways, this thread has gotten way off topic and has turned into yet another round of this same (rather pointless, yet entertaining) debate we've been having for like 6 or 7 months already. But I think the question has pretty much been answered. There seem to be two camps of people regarding the original question -- those who recognize Katara's outstanding abilities and talent, and those who want to downplay her just because they find her annoying or favor other characters. Whether or not she's a "prodigy" or a waterbending genius or whatever is rather a matter of semantics and splitting verbal hairs. One thing's for sure though -- she's definitely in a higher class than Azula, and no amount of fandom or wishful thinking is going to change that. -- SpiritBender
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Post by dragonflly on Nov 25, 2007 0:32:51 GMT -5
Wow, that last sentence really says about all of it! Karma to you spiritbender!
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Post by Elisabeth Blanctorche on Nov 25, 2007 3:15:24 GMT -5
As shocking as it may be, I actually agree with you, SpiritBender. Even I can't make an argument supporting Azula>Katara. That was actually a good catch, so I'll give you credit for that. Never in a millon years would I have thought Katara could be better than Azula. However, I think she's powerful for different reasons than you.
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SpiritBender
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Post by SpiritBender on Nov 25, 2007 10:32:49 GMT -5
What, no argument?!? Awwwww, how disappointing...
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truwaterbender
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Post by truwaterbender on Nov 25, 2007 12:14:38 GMT -5
hmmfh Yeah what a good point you brought up SpiritBender also here's my opinion "To be a prodigy you are talented and gifted from the start like Azula a firebending prodigy, Katara realized her gift but needed a master wheras azula pretty much did it heself althoguht trainning herself made her a rigid and unadaptable fighter. Wheras Katara learned to be flexible in battle." What i'm tring to say is,"Katara isn't a prodogy just very gifted and talented in her art. Azula is a prodigy just not as leanient in battle which may be her downfall. Katara's downfall may be having a little too much compassion for others espsicially (sp) is battle. Whew I hope I got my point across...
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Post by WyrmKing on Nov 25, 2007 12:42:05 GMT -5
Azula didn't do it herself. She still had teachers. She's royalty, she's going to have teachers. I'm sure her father taught her some. And Li and Lo seem to be overseeing her training in Season 2.
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SpiritBender
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Post by SpiritBender on Nov 25, 2007 12:55:24 GMT -5
^^Yeah. I would say that Azula's rigidity comes from her obsession with perfection. Think of the scene in The Avatar State where she has one hair out of place, and she says with fury, "Almost isn't good enough!" There's no joy in her bending or love of her bending art for its own sake -- in other words, no passion. For Azula, firebending is just a means to have power over people and the world around her. Remember Iroh's words in CoD -- "Perfection and power are over-rated." Focusing on obsessively perfecting all of her moves does bring Azula a much higher level of skill than most benders, but she doesn't really feel her element the way that a bender who feels true passion about their element does like Toph or Katara. It's a very subtle thing, but it effects everything about the way she bends. As I said before, The Beach pointedly demonstrated how incapable Azula is of thinking outside the terms of power and perfection. That is why Azula will never fully understand fire, let alone the other elements' perspectives the way Iroh and Jeong-Jeong do, and that is truly why she will never progress to the highest levels of bending mastery.
-- SpiritBender
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Post by Gran Gran on Nov 25, 2007 12:56:09 GMT -5
I guess the question is how do you define protigy. A kid with talent who is trained and primed from day one - or the kid with talent who has to has to work on everything herself, without teachers. Once Katara has the access to the teachers (I am sure the Royal Princess had nothing less than masters to teach her) she advanced within a couple of weeks (couple - relative, however long they got to stay at the north pole) making up for lost time rather quickly. So while she is not a child star, she is definetly gifted beyond the ordinary - plus she works hard. And since this is a nick show, however advanced for the station, being caring is a good thing and good prevailes over evil. But also since this is a modern day fairy tale, Azula won't burn on the stake, like the bad witch in the grimm stories always does...
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truwaterbender
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Post by truwaterbender on Nov 25, 2007 20:23:50 GMT -5
Okay yes I realize Azula had teachers but she was a prodigy since she was a kid mastery thats why she is a prodigy
Not that I don't love Katara but I have gone to the extent of doing my hair like her for all 3 seasons but no she is not a prodigy if she was Katara would've pretty much been a half master by the time she freed Aang which should answer the question is katara a prodigy? No but she is skilled and talented
azula she just tries to overpower any oppenent and is too focussed on perfection to be the warrior of katara's status
My definition of PRODIGY in the world of Avatar:
To be a prodigy you master your art in a very small time at a very young age with not alot of help from teachers
Azula fits that definition
Katara took 14 years to be a master...
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Post by Elisabeth Blanctorche on Nov 25, 2007 23:21:15 GMT -5
Okay yes I realize Azula had teachers but she was a prodigy since she was a kid mastery thats why she is a prodigy Not that I don't love Katara but I have gone to the extent of doing my hair like her for all 3 seasons but no she is not a prodigy if she was Katara would've pretty much been a half master by the time she freed Aang which should answer the question is katara a prodigy? No but she is skilled and talented azula she just tries to overpower any oppenent and is too focussed on perfection to be the warrior of katara's status My definition of PRODIGY in the world of Avatar: To be a prodigy you master your art in a very small time at a very young age with not alot of help from teachers Azula fits that definition Katara took 14 years to be a master... I don't what you're trying to say... You just said pretty much copied SpiritBender, and put that as your reason for Katara not being a prodigy.
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truwaterbender
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What? I'm supposed to put something witty here?
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Post by truwaterbender on Nov 26, 2007 18:38:36 GMT -5
I didn't and if I did I'm sorry what I'm was tring to say was
Katara is not a prodigy just skilled and talented Azula is a prodigy but is rigid and unadaptable in battle
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Post by dragonflly on Nov 26, 2007 22:48:12 GMT -5
To me a prodigy is a person born with a gift from the start, and advances quickly in thier art. Katara and Azula BOTH were born with a gift. Azula had the best trainers and teachers probably from the time she could walk, giving her what she needed to become what she is now. Katara, even though she had a gift, wasn't privey to the best trainers and teachers, and had to go it alone for awhile. Once she got a teacher, she advanced quickly, right to Azula's level. What would Katara have been if she had the same advantages that Azula had? Just imagine. She learned just as quickly as Azula did, she just didn't do it from an early age. In my eyes, Katara is every bit as much a prodigy as Azula is. And so is Toph for that matter, and I'll go so far as to say Aang was of air as well.
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truwaterbender
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What? I'm supposed to put something witty here?
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Post by truwaterbender on Dec 30, 2007 22:22:23 GMT -5
Oaky one think is how the world do we know that Azula had the best rainers I mean Zuko had to have had the same masters as Azula and he still..okay I won't say it so I don't bash anyone.......but Katara had OVER the same time as Azula and was still barely a begginer. Azula was already mastering. I only have to say this....We don't know a lot about Azula's history so we can't make judgements..yet..once we know for sure I'll buy it untill then I will be strongly enforcing my opinion here.
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SpiritBender
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Post by SpiritBender on Dec 30, 2007 22:48:11 GMT -5
^^Basically we're inferring that Azula had teachers because she is a member of the royal family, and she went to the "Royal Fire Academy for Girls". Also, Lo and Li seemed to be teachers to Azula, since they were critiquing her practice of lightning-bending. In the flashback during Zuko alone, there were references to the lessons that both Azula and Zuko were having, as well as a demonstration of how much more quickly Azula was progressing in those lessons. It's not too much of a stretch to conclude that members of the royal family would have access to some of the greatest firebending teachers from a very young age. But anyways, as I said before, the question of whether or not Katara is a "prodigy" seems to be a matter of splitting of verbal hairs. Whether or not one chooses to give her that label, it's quite clear that Katara is both extraordinarily talented, and she works incredibly hard to reach her potential. When she reaches her full potential, she will be among the greatest benders in the world, and at a level that Azula could never hope to match.
-- SpiritBender
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