The Western Air Temple discussion

[Amira]

Yice, I do think I misunderstood what you are trying to say in some ways. I meant to go back and edit cause I re-read some things, but life kind of side-tracked me. Stupid life. But yes, initially I did feel that you were not taking my points seriously because honestly I consider nothing irrelevant when discussing characters and their roles and how they are shaped.

Perhaps that comes from being a childrens' librarian and dealing with small people who think everything about a character is important down to even where he goes to the bathroom.

But I do still think that you are boxing Aang into a mold, but let's agree to disagree for now and just see what happens.

Shake on it?

[pg15]

yiceman said:

PG--Well, you're question is phrased as if I'm the only person who has a problem with Aang's behavior. I'm not, other people see it too.

I had no problems with that. I specifically quoted the part where you said that only the role mattered, and nothing else. I felt like you were watching shows and ticking off whether the characters fit the roles or not, and then moving on, and not watching for the specific characters themselves. Like we've discussed many moons ago, I could care less what role each character fit; the only thing that interest me is that character itself, what qualities he/she has, and whether those interest me. Luckily, on Avatar, every character has traits that interest me, especially Aang. I really don't care what role he's supposed to fit in according to whatever official sources that state these things; all I know is that, as a character, I can relate to him and his rate of development is pretty much what I've seen in real life, and even with myself at times. Is he the "Hero"? Well, he's certainly one of the main characters, but past that, I wouldn't put any more labels on him. I feel no need to.

When I watch the show, I don't think in terms of story structure; I don't think in terms of character development; I don't think as a critic, basically (not saying you do). I immerse myself fully within the story world and think in terms of the events as actually occuring to these characters who I've followed since I discovered the show more than a year ago.

Anyway, that was just to explain myself. Let's move on...

But I'll answer you nonetheless...yes, every protagonistic character I like shares a similar trait...they leads events to the best of their abilities and can take charge.

Is this limiting? I don't see how. It's very, very open, in fact. I just like my hero's to be the most active.

That kind of negates any "hero" that is thrust into the position of hero by everyone else but himself, no? Like Aang? Sounds to me like the heroes you like are only those that are strong-willed and "gets it" right away. Whatever happens to those who are forced into the position and don't actually have the stuff? What happens to the "reluctant" heroes who learn during the journey and only "gets it" at the end, when it really mattered?

No, I'd say that isn't open at all, not that it's a bad thing per se, since I also have qualities of my own which I look for in characters, as I stated above. Obviously I won't fault you for having that specific opinion. I just don't agree with it.

Yet he's driven. He DOES things. He doesn't need anyone to guide him or tell him what to do. Sure, it makes him screw up, but he learns and adapts from his mistakes and actively faces them head on and defeats them the second time around.

See, that's what I mean. Is he that guy from Prison Break? Anyways, unlike you, I very much dislike these loner-type "heroes" who basically do everything on their own. Even when they use others, it's for his plans and his word is go. No, don't like that. I love it much better when a group of people are involved, and they're on equal grounds. No one is above any other, and they all depend on each other in accomplishing their goal.

But I put up with it BECAUSE I hoped that after Sokka's plan failed, Aang would seize his moment. He's worse than ever! He didn't DO anything in WAT! And The Firebending Masters? Soon as things got tough, he wanted to leave...Zuko made them stay.

You know what? I'm with Amira on this one. You ARE boxing Aang in. Perhaps you should try to let go of your definition of what a hero is supposed to be and watch Aang for Aang? If you're only watching him because he's the hero of the story, and not for the character itself, then I'm afraid disappointment is all you're going to get. Aang is following his own path towards salvation, and the fact that it seems to deviate from where you like him to go doesn't make it any less entertaining for the rest of us.

Hmm...that came off a lot more blunt than I thought...well, no offense meant.

So, yes...where's Aang's big moment? How much longer must we wait?

Considering that this whole series is building up to Aang's big moment, I think it's coming in the finale. After all, it is a coming-of-age story, in a sense. Even then, I doubt we'll see a complete transformation. The playful and "childish" Aang we saw the past 2.5 seasons will never disappear, and that's just the way I like it.

[kaibasgirl]

pg15, I'm logging in just to give you karma

[pg15]

Why, thank you very much! ;D

[yiceman]

Amira, sure I'll shake. And I appreciate the sentiments. Cheers.

PG- Oh yes, I remember our previous discussion now.

Here's the thing about me. You're not far off actually in your first statement. I do note roles and structure right away. I actually can't help it. It's not a conscious thing, so much as me thinking "And now this will happen...yeah there it is."

It comes with the territory. The very first thing the instructor of my first screenwriting class told us was "My goal for the end of this class is to ruin all of your movie-watching experiences."

He basically was telling us that, by the time he was finished with us, we wouldn't be able to just sit and watch anymore.

Now, it seems to me that you are speaking as a viewer, not so much a writer, yeah? That's why roles don't much concern you.

Well, hey, they concern me. That's why I started the topic a while back. So I guess you could either respond with an argument about why having the protagonist be the least active of the main characters is a good thing, or you can say "So what?"

Well, so what if the beginning of this great book seems a little rushed, so what if the user interface of this program is slightly off, so what if there's a small stain on this nice coat?

So what if a lot of the recent episodes of Avatar have too many silly sound effects? So what if there's been a bit too many fillers? So what if Zuko's decision to join Aang sort of came out of nowhere?

Details, my friend, details. It goes without saying that I like this show. I talk about it because I like it. But is it without things that bother me? No.

So I, like anyone else, mention what's bothersome.

So, say we get all the way to the finale, and you complain that Aang and Katara have still not once even mentioned that kiss from DoBS.

If I disagreed with you (and I wouldn't...they need to mention it and soon), I could either
A) Offer a narrative reason as to why it's better for the story that they don't mention it.
B) Say it doesn't matter, who cares about the romance.

One offers room for discussion, the other not so much ;p

If your position is "I don't care about character roles" I can't very well make you care.

If your position is "Why do character roles matter" maybe I could shed some light on my thinking.

Ever hear of archetypes? Those are pretty easy ways of identifying character types. They aren't limiting restrictions, don't think that. But when I look at Iroh and immediately recognize him as a Mentor or Spiritual Father figure, then I have a better understanding of what kind of role he'll fulfill.

But, say Iroh started doing more villainous actions. Could he change roles? Sure thing. But then he's no longer a Mentor archetype, is he? He's reached the point where he stops displaying the qualities that people attribute to that archetype.

Now, say we have a hero. As such, he earns that title by displaying the qualities that make up that character archetype. They are driven, active, selfless, and above all, make sacrifices. Could this character change? Absolutely.

Oftentimes, you have a minor character becoming the temporary hero of a particular point in the story. Sometimes you switch perspectives around, and your current hero could be the last chapter's villain.

Those are usually traits of more advanced stories, though. Most TV shows and movies these days are pretty straightforward.

Avatar? REALLY straightforward. Believe it or not, Avatar is not breaking any boundaries or reaching uncharted waters of storytelling. Don't believe me?

Did anyone NOT know beforehand that Zuko would be redeemed? (except grandmaster...he doesn't count -_- )

Is the end of this series really under a lot of question? Are we seriously doubting whether Ozai will be beaten and the comet stopped? No, I'd say we can all pretty much guess the basic end.

As for Aang specifically, and the reason for my griping... Aang is constantly called the hero of this story. He's the main character, the protagonist, and a hero. I don't think we can deny that much, right?

The way he's introduced, the title of the show, the things he does...they all indicate him as the protagonist, and more, a classic Hero.

And he is...he's everything we could expect in a hero...except this one thing. And for me, it's the most important thing. That's why I'm bothered.

This doesn't require a lot of foreknowledge on archetypes really...everyone can recognize the hero of a story like this. And we hold certain expectations of this character above all the others.

For example...another hypothetical situation.

It's the end of this show. Aang goes to fight Ozai. Ozai is too strong and beats him. Someone else walks in and single handedly beats Ozai without Aang's help. A classic deus ex machina.

Now, be honest. Would this not bother you at all? Aang didn't defeat the Fire Lord. Heck, say he didn't really contribute to the final battle at all.

Let's make this extreme. Aang sat out of the battle altogether. Toph, Zuko, Katara and Sokka win the day.

Would this bother you? (I'm assuming it will)

Why?
Aang should have beaten Ozai.
Why?
Because he's supposed to, he's the hero!
But wait a minute...I thought roles did not matter?

Were this true...we wouldn't be able to theorize at all.

Heck, imagine that no one ever had any say on roles and structure in stories at all. Who's to say what makes a good story then?

How do we know what is a good story? Structure.

Here's what I gathered from your tone. You question me as if these are my own, original ideas, when it's in fact what I've been taught. You ask me about the importance of roles as if someone out there said "THIS is what makes a story good." and they expected all stories to adapt to it.

Not so. The people who determined this studied stories throughout the generations, and determined the common factors that make stories enjoyable and functionable.

These structures, these roles, that's what they came up with.

Aang has to beat the Fire Lord not just because he's been assigned a label. He has to beat the Fire Lord because just about every single human who appreciates these kinds of tales derives the most pleasure and fulfillment out of that end.

So...you can either bare with me and talk about character roles, or you can say they don't matter. If you say they don't matter, then by your argument...well, basically the sky's the limit. Congratulations, you've created much more freedom. Just don't assume all of those opened options are good.

Basically, if you think that Aang will defeat the Fire Lord at the end of this season, you DO believe in roles.



As for reluctant heroes (Nope I'm not done yet!) they're the same. Being "driven" doesn't mean they want any of what's going on to happen. It doesn't mean they're always ready with an answer or don't succumb to despair not and then.

What's a good example... the movie Hotel Rwanda. I know it's based on real events, but the story still represents my point.

The hero of this story is a regular old Hotel owner in Rwanda. He's no super hero. But this is when massive fighting breaks out between two enemy tribes. Massive riots and massacres...people getting hacked by machetes...terrible stuff.

So the hero, Paul, offers the people on his street of one tribe to stay in his hotel after they've been chased out of their homes. His he happy about it? Not really...he's not happy about any of this. Doubtless he just wants to run his hotel in peace.

But he is not passive. That is the thing. While he isn't visibly gun-ho and fighting the people who are doing the killing, he is being active and taking charge.

It's just small things that add up to a whole lot, really. Take this scene from the movie...this is where the UN is rounding up all of the people of European or American descent to escort them out of the country. But they're leaving all of the Rwandans behind.

Does Paul try to force them to take his people? No. Does he steal a bus to drive them all out? Or hold a gun to the generals head until he lets the Rwandans go too? No.

All he does in this scene is tell the people "It's ok, just go inside the hotel, please." And that is it. That is him taking charge. That is him being ACTIVE. These people have lost their homes, are fearing for their lives, and they need someone to tell them what to do. And he does that.

Just watch the clip...even if I hadn't pointed out who the hero is, I'm certain you could pick him out.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9i6NiAqUrnM

So my point is, don't mistake "driven" with willing. So what makes the difference between being unwilling and being passive? Still, it's all in the ACTION.

Characters ARE action. The hero may say that they don't want to do any of this...yet in acting...in saving those people...they reveal their inner self. They reveal why they are the hero.

Since you asked, no, the guy from Prison Break wasn't who I was talking about there. My favorite character of all time is Jaime Lannister from the Song of Ice and Fire series. Lot of people might not like him...and they've got good reason too. I can see why it's hard to like someone who pushes a seven year old out of a window during the first 100 pages of the story. Not to mention the whole...incest thing...not a fan of that part, I admit. But despite the bad things he's done, he's not an evil person. He's just not a decent person either.

Yet seeing the world from his perspective fascinates me.

As for your final statement. Don't worry, I'm the king of bluntness. And I'll use it now. You're wrong. If I expect certain things about Aang as the hero based on his role, I will be right 90% of the time. It's very easy in these kinds of stories, really.

So, no, I won't be disappointed. I think that Aang will personally defeat Ozai. I think this because of his role as the hero. Pretty sure I'll be right about that.

As for "boxing in..." I dunno about that. I make no suggestions on how his personality should be, did I?

What exactly is so restraining about expecting Aang to be the one to drive the group forward in most situations?

[mahatista]

That was great Yice. I particularly like your examples of how all of us have expectations of Aang's character based on the archetype of that character and how fluid the specifics can actually be. It might be hilarious if Aang just decided to sit the comet battle out. 'Sorry guys, I'm challenging stereotypes here. Don't box me in.' But it would also be very, very disappointing, yeah?

That's a saveable dissertation on the hero's role in story structure.

I wonder how the structure will go in the live-action films. If they'll work a little faster because you're not having to wait a week (or a year!) from one event to the next.

I was kind of hoping Aang would take the lead in The Boiling Rock but the game implies Zuko will. Maybe Aang takes the lead in the second episode when it comes time to save Zuko after he gets himself captured in episode 1 (I've just decided that's what's going to happen ) .

But in WAT he didn't really make any decisions for himself. Not until Zuko apologized to Toph and Aang connected with the words. So yeah, I want my dashing season 1 Aang back.

[nandireya]

I think we're going to have to see Zuko take the lead at some point, even if it's just fir an episode. It's pretty much a given he's going to be the guy to lead the Fire Nation into its era of peace and kindness and in order to do that he's got to be able to inspire people to follow him.

[pg15]

Yikes man, that's a loooong post. ;D

But I don't think you'll get as much of an arguments as you'd think from me...

yiceman said:

Here's the thing about me. You're not far off actually in your first statement. I do note roles and structure right away. I actually can't help it. It's not a conscious thing, so much as me thinking "And now this will happen...yeah there it is."

It comes with the territory. The very first thing the instructor of my first screenwriting class told us was "My goal for the end of this class is to ruin all of your movie-watching experiences."

He basically was telling us that, by the time he was finished with us, we wouldn't be able to just sit and watch anymore.

Now, it seems to me that you are speaking as a viewer, not so much a writer, yeah? That's why roles don't much concern you.

Well, hey, they concern me. That's why I started the topic a while back. So I guess you could either respond with an argument about why having the protagonist be the least active of the main characters is a good thing, or you can say "So what?"

Note to self: never take screenwriting classes. Hehe.

Seriously though, I offer a third response: agree to disagree. Now that I know where you're coming from, and indeed how different it is from where I'm coming from (as a viewer, as you say), I've come to a conclusion: we watch the show on fundamentally different levels, and I don't think we can really continue this enlightening discussion much further as I don't think we have a common ground to stand on.

That is not a bad thing, of course. I've really enjoyed this discussion, as well as learning about your point of view which is so different from mine.

Now let me betray my own words with yet more discussion!

Ever hear of archetypes? Those are pretty easy ways of identifying character types. They aren't limiting restrictions, don't think that. But when I look at Iroh and immediately recognize him as a Mentor or Spiritual Father figure, then I have a better understanding of what kind of role he'll fulfill.

No worries, I've heard of that term a-plenty, and I see exactly where you're coming from.

Avatar? REALLY straightforward. Believe it or not, Avatar is not breaking any boundaries or reaching uncharted waters of storytelling. Don't believe me?

Hell yes I believe you! I've pointed out somewhere around here that Avatar is just another retread of the old "kid grows up while saving the world" storyline, but done in an extremely entertaining fashion.

For example...another hypothetical situation.

It's the end of this show. Aang goes to fight Ozai. Ozai is too strong and beats him. Someone else walks in and single handedly beats Ozai without Aang's help. A classic deus ex machina.

Now, be honest. Would this not bother you at all? Aang didn't defeat the Fire Lord. Heck, say he didn't really contribute to the final battle at all.

Let's make this extreme. Aang sat out of the battle altogether. Toph, Zuko, Katara and Sokka win the day.

Would this bother you? (I'm assuming it will)

Why?
Aang should have beaten Ozai.
Why?
Because he's supposed to, he's the hero!
But wait a minute...I thought roles did not matter?

Hmmm...well, in our discussions I've always sensed that your definition of a "role" was a lot more restrictive. In this case then, yes, roles are important. I, too, have no worries that Aang will defeat Ozai, but there's a difference beween beating the Big Bad at the end and leading the troop throughout the series, which, based on your comment about Aang's behavior in season 1 already bothering you a little, seems to be what you've wanted. Actually, I'd say this was the whole point of contention I've been trying to extract from my head with all this clumsy language.

As I said in my previous post, this story will end with Aang owning up to the name and reputation of the Avatar with him PWNING Ozai, I have no doubts to that. But I do believe that this will only be realized in the finale since the whole series is about Aang getting there. So, seeing him not take charge right now doesn't bother me, since, as far as I can see, this is to be expected of the type of story we're watching. Once Aang gets to that point, his growth is virtually finished in the scope of the series, and thus the series is finished as well.

So my point is, don't mistake "driven" with willing. So what makes the difference between being unwilling and being passive? Still, it's all in the ACTION.

Characters ARE action. The hero may say that they don't want to do any of this...yet in acting...in saving those people...they reveal their inner self. They reveal why they are the hero.

And I think Aang's actions are more heroic than you may think. I will always come back to the fact that he is still a kid (a kid entering puberty, in fact), and I know how turbulent, emotionally, that can be. Has he shown moments of weakness? Hell yes. However, he has always worked through them. Not once has he stubbornly refused to do something, as far as I can remember. Even with the Guru's 7th chakra advice, he eventually realized what he must do, and did it (even if it didn't go so well). Firebending? He hates it, but at the end, he knew it had to be done, and did it/is doing it. Of course, you have pointed out that most of these times he had help, or needed convincing from his friends, well, considering that Iroh expressed the same sentiment in Bitter Work, I don't see that as a bad thing. In fact, I'd say that that's one of this series' messages: no matter how powerful you are, if you are without support and love from others, you are nothing. Heck, even Azula has Ty Lee and Mai.

Lastly, he is still growing up. As I said above, he will, IMHO, truly own up to his Avatar duties in the finale, and so before that there will still be a waffling period, which for me is expected.

As for "boxing in..." I dunno about that. I make no suggestions on how his personality should be, did I?

What exactly is so restraining about expecting Aang to be the one to drive the group forward in most situations?

Isn't being driven a personality trait? Or did I just fail Psych 101?

If not, then the Air Nomads are pretty much NOT driven. They're comfortable living their lives having a good time. I know you've said that character history is kind of not important, and that the character is basically this packaged deal created by the creators, but obviously they did it for a reason. I have no doubt Aang will defeat Ozai, and that he will rise to the occasion at the end of the show, as I've talked about up above.

[yiceman]

Sorry again for taking so long to reply ;p

Maha, thank you for the praise, means a lot.

Pg--Always a pleasure to debate with you sir. And yeah, screenwriting is no walk in the park. The very first lesson you learn is basically "Your story isn't original, you're not that great, and if you make a single mistake you will fail horribly."

Now as for your points. I agree that Aang is a great hero...except for this one thing. I know everything he's overcome and the position he's in. But, hey, as I said, this is the most important thing for me...hence why I'm a little peeved.

As for the end. Honestly, beating Ozai...not what I'm talking about right now. I know Aang can fight. I know he can see something clearly labled as "bad" and go fight it, no prob. What he's not exceptionally great at is making those REALLY tough choices and dealing with the consequences.

Sacrifice...that word is the primary factor behind most classic definitions of a Hero.

That is exactly why I would rather Aang "let go" of Katara. Because I think it would further his role as a hero. I think it would serve his character better than the romance could.

As for season 1 Aang, I was fine for the most part with it. But the season finale had me scratching my head a little. It just seemed more like the Avatar State by itself saved the day, not Aang controlling it.

The difference being that, if Aang MASTERED the AS, then he would be in control of himself and using a tool, rather than basically going into a coma and accidentally defeating the FN navy.

As for "driven" being a personality trait, I dunno. I would call every member of the gAang but Aang driven in their own way, and we all know they're different. Basically, by driven I mean that they are ACTIVE, and make lots of choices and pursue the solutions, without needing to be guided into it.

And the Air Nomads were a group of peaceful people, not the major characters of an epic fantasy.

[pg15]

yiceman said:

Pg--Always a pleasure to debate with you sir. And yeah, screenwriting is no walk in the park. The very first lesson you learn is basically "Your story isn't original, you're not that great, and if you make a single mistake you will fail horribly."

Oh goody. I think I'll just stick to Physics then. ;D

(though I do write non-Avatar scripted fanfiction in my off time /shameless plug).

And it has been wonderful debating with you as well! Have a karma.

As for the end. Honestly, beating Ozai...not what I'm talking about right now. I know Aang can fight. I know he can see something clearly labled as "bad" and go fight it, no prob. What he's not exceptionally great at is making those REALLY tough choices and dealing with the consequences.

I think I get what you mean. You're talking about those choices in those "no win situations", right? Like those morally questionable cases? Kill a man to save a few thousand? I mean, that's what I get out of the "REALLY" part of what I quoted. If you meant something less severe, then feel free to correct me.

If not, then I can see why they haven't touched upon it, since this show is made for kids, for the most part. You may cite other characters doing that, but all I see are decisions that move forward the plot, and they aren't that difficult of choices.

And I do cite Aang's decision to leave the Guru to be one of those choices. He definitely delt with the consequences, since he died and all. Then he emoed about it for a while, made more choices (bad ones) to face the Fire lord alone and to not let other people get hurt, but then really had to take a step back since they were fully within Sokka's plan at that time, and it was a good one. Aang really had no need to take over for Sokka since Sokka was doing a good enough job as it is.

Of course, you can say that it should've been Aang's plan in the first place. Well then, Sokka wouldn't have any screentime now, would he. Even if he's not the "main hero", he is still important enough to get something like this. Like Aang, he's also coming of age, though for him it's a lot more personal, and he only have to prove it to himself and his father. As I said before, I'm much more comfortable with teams working together than a lone hero, so this didn't bother me...though I can see why it would bother you.

Thinking about it now, I'd say Aang has been fairly take-charge except for the Sokka plan thing (which I just explained) and the slight backtracking after DOBS due to personal issues with Fire Bending, which IMHO should be excused simply because...well, the personal issues. It's call backtracking; everyone does it (especially Zuko ;D).

Before, in The Avatar State, for example, he alone made the choices of whether to go for the AS or not. Then, he chose to try to find Bumi despite the Fire Nation swarming the entire city in Return to Omashu. Then, he came up with all the plans of getting to Toph in The Blind Bandit. Then, he chose to face Azula in The Chase. He then led everyone across the Serpent's Pass. While The Drill had Sokka coming up with the initial idea, it was Aang was came through with the "don't cut all the way through" plan that saved BSS.

As for season 1 Aang, I was fine for the most part with it. But the season finale had me scratching my head a little. It just seemed more like the Avatar State by itself saved the day, not Aang controlling it.

I think Aang's true heroic moment was going to face Koh, and I do agree that the Koizilla is pretty much all Avatar State + Ocean Spirit. But then, I had no problems with that since it was 1). awesome and 2). I knew Aang's true moment will come much later, in the finale.

And the Air Nomads were a group of peaceful people, not the major characters of an epic fantasy.

But as part of that group, Aang has inherited their weakness, which makes him an unique "heroic" figure, IMHO. I have no doubt that this was planned by the creators. They wanted a hero who only owned up to that name at the end, as it's his journey to make, and it's what the show's about. It's a lot more satisfying for someone like Aang, who is far from beng a typical hero, to reach that level of development, than someone who's already fairly heroic to make the very short jump to "true hero", whatever that may mean. It's the underdog story, basically.

[yiceman]

A karma to you as well.

And yeah I think you got the just of what I mean by hard decisions. See, when you have someone who is clearly doing wrong, it's easy to oppose them. But when there is good and ill in both choices, it's harder. Now I don't expect Aang to choose between lives on a Nick show, but those choices do exist.

Like the chakra/Avatar State thing. That seemed like it would be Aang's big moment, for me. I was not upset at his choice in the Guru, because it made for a better story to have him make the wrong choice, fail, and learn from it first.

But Aang hasn't spared 2 seconds of thought on his decision this season so far...that irritates me some.

So no I don't consider his choice in the Guru to be what I'm looking for because it is not yet complete. In my opinion, he made the wrong choice. Should he choose otherwise, THAT would be the big thing I'm looking for. Icing on the cake, actually, since I sure hope that we don't have to wait for the very very end to see Aang at the top of his game.

As for Aang running off to face the Fire Lord alone...that was again him revealing his tendency of running away. The way it seemed to me is that he was so ashamed of losing that he ran off from everyone he knows and who knows him, intending to do it alone.

He didn't really make a logical, calculated plan. He had a hissy fit and made a bad decision that almost killed him.

All the same, I was vocally disappointed that his journey alone was cut short. I really, really...REALLY wanted to see Aang acting on his own and fending for himself for at least a while.

We've had 2 full seasons of the group dynamic thing...this was such a great opportunity.

Honestly, it pains me. It truly pains me for the lost opportunity. I mean, they didn't exactly have anything as far as plot points until the eclipse. We could have had the first 9 episodes of this season with Aang experiencing the world for himself, growing even stronger and maturing. Meanwhile the rest of the gAang is hunting him down.

Heck, it could have even made kataang interesting for me...if Katara and Aang together bores me maybe seeing them apart and worried about each other could spice it up.

And then reunite them in 309...make the episode worth-watching. Oh man I would have LOVED that.

Why? Because Aang is the main character. If the show was pitched as a "team of fighters" with none being the clear main, then yeah I could understand keeping the dynamic. But honestly, I still would have split them up frequently.

The gAang is a bit TOO together, if you ask me. Many opportunities for individual storylines if they had mixed things up a bit. Heck, after DOBS I was hoping they would all get split up.

And yes...I would sacrifice Sokka's position as the plan guy to have Aang do some more leading. Even though Sokka is my favorite character. He happens to be my favorite because he's more of what I think Aang should be like...Aang seems more like a sidekick sometimes.

Those are some good examples, but none of them stand out overly much for me. The Avatar State was General Fong's idea, he's never had a problem fighting the clearly defined enemy that is the Fire Nation, and as for "plans" to get Toph to teach him, all he did was keep pestering her until she agreed...Choosing to fight Azula? No problem. She was a obvious and clear foe. Leading people across the Serpent's Pass? He didn't really lead...he was a downer the whole episode. Don't cut all the way through? Every member of the gAang has had those little moments of insight, yet still Sokka leads in the major decisions.

I'll tell you the biggest moment I saw of Aang taking charge...it was in everyone's favorite episode, the Great Divide. He took command of the two groups, and, to stop their bickering, came up with a creative white lie on the spur of the moment.

As for Aang's journey into the spirit world, that was based on the fact that he had no idea what to do, so went begging Avatar Roku for answers, who directed him to Koh.

Air Nomads...they're peaceful and detached. Aang fights all the time and has problems with attachment. Seems like he inherited odd qualities. I don't think we can base Aang's personality on restrictions of his culture. The writers are in full control to determine what culture he's from and what that culture believes. Aang's character traits and basic behavior came before the culture of the four nations, I guarantee you that.

[pg15]

It feels like we're going around in circles.

I respect your opinion and appreciate your insights into matters that have been foreign to me, but the bottom line is, as we covered earlier, I see the series in a different light from you. I have different expectations and attitudes towards Aang's character. All those instances I cited, to me, seemed to represent Aang's slow journey towards owning the Avatar title at the end, while they don't to you. That's fine, though I don't think we can get any further at this point.

It was fun while it lasted, but I guess we'll have to go back to agree to disagree.

[Silent_E]

Another fashionable end to pointless debate!

[pg15]

And an equally pointless capper on said pointless debate.

[melloyello]

Sorry to interrupt... Maha & Yice thanks for the kind words, and the karma. It's great when someone gets what you're trying to say!

Anyway, both pg15 and Yiceman have discussed Aang beating Ozai as part of his role as the hero. It seems most people are agreed that Aang needs to beat Ozai in the finale, and this will demonstrate that he is capable of fulfilling his personal destiny.

This is where the overall theme of the story comes in. For example, if the overriding theme of the story is an emphasis of teamwork over individual power, then we would see the Gaang beat Ozai, and not Aang. (Most people, I think, would agree this is unlikely.)

From what I've seen, and what few interviews I've read, I have assumed that the Ying/Yang relationship that Aang & Zuko share is one of the main themes of the story. (Opposites completing one another.) Given this, I have presumed that Aang's lack of drive will not be resolved until Zuko points him in the right direction. (Especially given that Aang's lack of drive, or more laid-back style, has contrasted clearly with Zuko's nearly obsessive drive throughout most of the series.)

The problem with this is that Zuko has only recently joined the gaang, and therefore the pivotal moment (wherein Aang clearly understands and embraces his destiny), can only occur in the last few episodes of the series. Again, I come back to the idea that Zuko should've left the FN to join the gaang before DOBS, but the writers kept him there needlessly to add additional drama to DOBS.

Considering that this whole series is building up to Aang's big moment, I think it's coming in the finale. After all, it is a coming-of-age story, in a sense.

Actually pg15, a few pages ago, I essentially said the same thing. But I am now questioning that position. If the story is actually a simple coming of age tale focusing on Aang then he doesn't need to fulfill the classic role of a hero until the very end of the series. But Aang isn't really coming of age, or growing up. He'll still only be 12 or 13 when the series finishes.

Coming of age stories typically have a rite of passage, some event that the protagonist must experience as part of growing up. They're made so that young viewers can identify with the protagonist, and also with the rite of passage.

An example of this genre is Judy Blume's 'Are you there God, it's me Margaret'. (I am NOT reccommending this book in any way. It is merely a good example of the coming of age formula.) It has a protagonist, and a rite of passage that young girls can identify with. If ATLA is essentially a coming of age story, what is Aang's rite of passage? Defeating Ozai? How does that make him identifiable with the target audience? As a viewer, I am willing to suspend disbelief enough to accept Aang as a leader & a protagonist, but if the entire story is about him growing up, then the series should have covered a much longer period of time. I just can't see Aang's story as a coming of age tale.

As I see it, Aang's reluctance to take charge is ultimately the result of one of two things. One: The delay is intentional on the part of the writers to heighten the drama of the finale. Two: it is a complete oversight on the part of the writers, and they threw in Aang on his glider in WAT to fill in time, to delay discussion of the new battle plan, ect. Three: The writers want to have Aang take control before the finale, but before he does this, some other as yet unresolved plot point must take place. (i.e. Zuko joining the gaang.)

EDIT: Whoa, I wrote this referring to the previous page! Looks like I'm a tad late on this one...