historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on May 4, 2008 15:13:22 GMT -5
It was brought up by Spirit Mage in the Race and Dating thread, and it has since been made. Please discuss whether the label is correct, the ideas are correct, and who engages in it. Many thanks.
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Post by Chibi Chan-o on May 4, 2008 19:47:13 GMT -5
I think political correctness is a stupid way to avoid starting a riot with a certain race, etc. You have to say "African American", for example, instead of black or else, "OMFG, you're racist!!!" And what about "physically handicapped" or "mentally challenged"? Back in the day, you could say crippled or r*etard. But now, unless you want your head cut off, you have to say the long version.
Hey people, stop being so overly sensitive about everything. It's just a friggin' word.
EDIT:
R*etard, without the *, is censored when you post it. Put it in and you'll get "dum dum" instead. See how fricking stupid that is?
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Post by username on May 4, 2008 20:02:07 GMT -5
We went over the "retarded" thing a while ago. Mods chose to have the filter stay, as the word itself is clearly the bad thing, rather than the intent.
Anywayz, political correctness is often criticized by stupid people who don't get why they can't call somebody a faggot or something. Then of course there is reasonable criticism of unnecessary political correctness. A lot of that has to do with some people being too sensitive or not having a sense of humor.
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Post by spiritmage234 on May 5, 2008 7:06:25 GMT -5
Well, first off, I know that political correctness was created as a force of good to prevent racist, homophobic and/or sexist people from using slurs to refer to people, such as refering to a Black or African person as a "n*gger" or a homosexual as a "f*g" and etc. But, political correctness as created more problems in itself.
I have a bit with racial political correctness the most. While the notion is good, it creates more identity problems. Like with the term "Hispanic". Now I know there are a lot of native Spanish-speakers who are for the term and a lot of Spanish-speakers who are equally against it. The thing with racial politcal correctness, is that in society - or at least American society since that's the society that I've come know best - a lot of people like to clump a group of people with sometimes one common trait together and base a "fact" (i.e. a stereotype) on that group in it's entirety. So if people see the term "hispanic", more than likely, the words that pop in their head are "Mexico", "tacos", "burritos", "illegal" and "Spanish". And I'm not saying that all people make this assumption. I'm talking about the ignorant people, not necessarily stupid, because hey, some people just don't know any better. And on the Census, anybody who is descended from a Spanish-speaking country is considered "hispanic", and I read a comment in the "race and dating" thread that people who came to the United States, say from, Columbia, don't call themselves "hispanic". I know they wouldn't, since that's a U.S. term. But another thing that irks me is the fact that people who come from the actual Spain - in all of it's magnificent glory - will be grouped with "hispanics" as well. Now, Spain is in Europe, and since on the census, all Europeans are concidered "White" (which is another political correct thing gone array), wouldn't that make them just as European as the country directly above them (in case some of you don't know your geography, that would be France)? So how come on any stadardized form where you are required to fill in your race, how is it that the "White/Caucasian" bubble as in parenthesis "non-hispanic"?
The thing that overall gets me about the "hispanic" term is that, I don't understand how speaking a langauge defines a race. I think the best analogy I can come up with to compete with this is like saying that all native English-speakers are one race. And the thing is, with both Spanish speaking and English speaking countries, is that, the customs and cultures vary from country to country. I know that Spanish-speaking countries have a lot in common, but, they don't all do the same thing. You can't rightfully compare Mexican culture with Spanish culture. That's like comparing culture from the United States with Australian culture. I mean, did you know that a thumbs-up in America is the equivalent to the middle finger in Australia? That's how different the two countries are.
And, you can be Chinese, Tanzanian, or Lakota and speak Spanish as a first language... Just like you could be either of the three and speak English as a first langauge, except if you speak English, you can put down Asian, Native American, or African on the bubble-form thing in stead of hispanic/latino/a.
That's just one political correct term out of three dozen. I think if people take this discussion maturely and don't call out "racist" or sexist" at every comment, this thread will be good to go and I will thoroughly enjoy debating/discussing it.
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Post by Victim ~*of *~Circumstances on May 5, 2008 7:43:11 GMT -5
^Speaking of Hispanic I've always wondered about the term Pacific Islander. I mean is there really a need to have that? It feels like they're trying to divide Asia up like puzzle pieces! Why can't we "Pacific Islanders" just call ourselves Asians like everyone else? Our region is still part of Asia after all. -__-
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Post by spiritmage234 on May 5, 2008 10:16:29 GMT -5
^I dunno, but apparently a White guy from Australia will be considered a Pacific Islander/Native Hawaiian according the U.S. Census and not White/Caucasian.
*shrugs*
The thing about Asia in my eyes, is that, well, it's the name of a continent - a land mass. And continents aren't ruled by a specific group of people. A country, on the other hand, is a society established by a group of people who have majority rule. And in the U.S. Census, Asia is divided like that. Like, even though Russia and the Iraq, Iran, Kuwait, etc. are geographically a part of Asia, the people aren't considered "Asian"; they're considered "White/Caucasian", even those who live in the Middle East (I have no idea why a person from Afghanistan will be considered "white" and a White guy from Australia will be considered "Pacific Islander". Beats me.). I think that's why even though the continent that I live on is called North America, and the continent below ours is Called South America, the people who live on that continent are not concidered "Americans" like how all people in Europe (excluding Spain) are concidered Europeans and all people in Africa are considered Africans. Unless, it's because the United States claimed the term "american" solely for its people.
Actually, once I got through writing that, that in itself is a little, screwy.
But more on the Asian thing, I don't know why people from the Middle East will be considered "White" in my opinion. It's the clumping effect if you ask me. They see that most people in those countries practice a monotheistic religion, so maybe they're clumping people according to religion instead of inhabitating a certain area. So everyone in the Middle East and Russia are White and the rest are Asian. But then they further break up Asia by Southeast Asians and Far East Asians, which in that fact, they are clumping them according the phenotypes. The bad thing about this whole thing, is that people are gonna categorize them by stereotypes: any person with a Southeastern phenotype will automatically be "Indian" to a casual American, anybody with Far East phenotypes will be "Chinese", and anybody with Middle Eastern will be a "terrorist" (A lot of people don't want to accept this, but what can I say? There are a lot of stupid and racist people in America). And with personal identification, a lot of people who inhabit that continent, hate each other, and don't want to be associated with each other, let alone grouped together. Like, a lot of Chinese people, HATE Japanese people. And a lot of Palestinians hate Israelis, etc.
So yeah, naming a people after a continent, eh. I'd rather go with country or ethnic group.
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Post by Victim ~*of *~Circumstances on May 5, 2008 10:40:29 GMT -5
Woah, ok kinda got confused for a bit but I see your point. I've never heard of an Australian being called a Pacific Islander though. Anyway, the goal(s) of political correctness seem to be the following:
-The rights, opportunities, and freedoms of certain people are restricted because they are reduced to a stereotype.
-Stereotyping largely is implicit, unconscious, and facilitated by the availability of pejorative labels and terms.
-Rendering the labels and terms socially unacceptable, people then must consciously think about how they describe someone unlike themselves.
-When labelling is a conscious activity, the described person's individual merits become apparent, rather than his or her stereotype.
But it gets even more crazy when terms chosen by an identity group, as acceptable descriptors of themselves, then pass into common usage, including usage by the very people whose racism and sexism, et cetera, the new terms replace what was used before. The new terms are thus devalued, and then people have to think up new words for "political correctness". It's like a never ending thing pretty much.
Which is just dumb, I mean in my honest opinion we really don't need political correctness all that much. But I guess that would be apathetic considering there always seems to be someone who takes things seriously and gets offended. It's like how the older generation thinks the new one is full of wusses (am I allowed to say that? can't think of a better term) cause everyone is so sensitive! Like that thing about violent cartoons. You don't see Tom & Jerry or Looney Tunes violence alot in cartoons these days cause it's supposed to be bad for young children.
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Post by spiritmage234 on May 5, 2008 11:13:33 GMT -5
^I think, this can be solved in two simple ways: 1) Instead of other people telling you what YOU are, how about you tell THEM what YOU are? If you feel more proud/comfortable of being called "Taiwanese" instead of "Asian", then go ahead and do it! And I'm not saying that we should all just go around wearing name tags that bear the name of our ethnic group on it. Instead of assuming what one is, just politely ask a person what their ethnicity is, and if they are polite back, they'll tell you. or 2) Since I think people should be called by country instead of continent, how bout we call all people who are born in the U.S. "Americans"(or "Unitians" how I like to put it), without the name of race behind or in front of the word "American"? Or even better, instead of determining things based on race and ethnicity, how about we base all this crap on intelligence instead? That's what it all comes down to. Face it (And I will be honest): there are a lot of stupidand lazy Black in the country. But (But, but, BUT), there are a lot of Black people who AREN'T lazy, nor dumb, and they sure as hell do not need a program such as "affirmitive action" to get anywhere in life. And you simple-minded people: don't even think about calling me a "racist".
Characteristics such as sloth, greed, stupidity, and love, lust, friendly, and etc. are present in all races, ethnicities, genders, species, religions, etc. Remember that.
Look, you don't have to a be a minority to be on welfare. There are a lot more whites on welfare than there are blacks FYI. If you dropped out of school - which, anyone can - and if you suck at financial management because of that - which, anyone can - and if you don't have the effort of trying to find a job - which, ANYONE CAN - then, OF COURSE YOU'RE GOING TO BE ON WELFARE.
Dammit. Going off track again SM....
Okay, okay. Affirmitive action will have to wait for another time. But yeah. Your race or ethnicity shouldn't play a role in getting a job or whatever. Political correctness, in my opinion, is a form of racism, because, political correctness was established to not make people get offended by squishing people who share one - maybe two - common traits with each other into five or six little boxes, but in so doing so, is keeping America more, "organized", which, calls for separation, and, a separation of races is called "segregation" and often leads to racism...
We are all part of possibly the lowest race in the universe: the human race.
And, if we need to separate anything, it should be logical people, from stupid people.
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Post by Victim ~*of *~Circumstances on May 5, 2008 12:07:36 GMT -5
You know, you're exactly right. I second those suggestions with two of my own.
1.) Common Sense is a wonderful thing to have in cases such as this 2.) People have to stop being so sensitive about things like race
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Post by CountessRachel on May 5, 2008 12:20:38 GMT -5
Well, to deviate from PC intent, one of the main reasons why standardized tests ask for "ethnicity" is because of studies to show what groups do well over others. It supposedly shows where our educational system needs improving...not that much improving actually happens.
As far as PC goes...I don't care if people say "black" or "African-American." I've heard arguments for and against both. There really is no such thing as a "white" or "black" person since "white people" are actually shades of peach and tan and "black people" actually have varying shades of beige, tan, and brown skin colors.
The only issue there is surrounding the term "black," imo, is that in American society, "black" has more of a negative connotation than the word "white." When some people hear the the phrase, "a black guy" as opposed to an "African American guy," I would imagine both terms evoke different mental images. And then for some people they imagine the same type of person--be it a good or bad image, that's up to them.
I do agree with kaneda in that people who gripe excessively about PCness are stupid and secretly desire to fling racial/gender/sexual preference slurs about.
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Post by spiritmage234 on May 6, 2008 7:48:26 GMT -5
^I get what you mean CR, and I would like to add a part on the "standardized test and race"/image discussion.
You said that the term "black" does somewhat reinforce a stereotypical image of those who claim that ethnicity (you notice that anything with the word "black" in it usually bad and "white" is pure and clean like tidy whites. e.g. blackmarket; white lie). And, since I do admit that there are a lot of impoverished blacks in the country, when they fill out the Census whatever, and bubble in what low income they have, and their race - bam. For years America has that assumption - the stereotype - that most black people are on a fixed income and on welfare. This is the also the same with the whole "racial profiling" deal. Statistics show that blacks males are more than likely going to hit up a party store, so what kind of people do you think the cops are going to be investigating first? (And let's remember, that stupidity in this situation isn't just limited to blacks. I've seen a fair amount of Mexican and White people on the serveilence cameras too.)
I'd also like to go into "Asian" individuals (according to the U.S. census). So it's pretty clear by now that according to test score and other standardized tests, Asians score the highest on test. Whoopdie doo. So, America has the "good" assumption toward Asians that they are megasmart and they're all good at Math. But, you never hear about the "bad" marks about Asians do you? The funny thing about American society is, is that they focus on the bad stereotypes for some groups and only on the good stereotypes for others. Because of this, a lot of Americans don't know that according to income tax statistics and etc. that most Asians live in impoverished conditions, are on welfare, and a lot, LOT more Asians aren't in college than the ones that are.
So, America focuses on the small amount of Asians who succeed in this country and, well, practically forget the others who "don't suceed". That's why Asians are still known as the "model minority" in America.
And, everybody knows that society can do the exact same thing for any other ethnic group. Why not focus on the blacks males that aren't in the slammer, or how about putting a little more attention on the Native Americans who aren't stuck on "the rez"?
Crap. I don't even know what I'm trying to prove. :P
I think what I'm trying to say is that statistics based on race and ethnicity tend to reinforce stereotypes, and in so doing, overshadow some information that could push some races forward and pull some races beind.
Oh yeah. Yeah if you're black, you prolly have gangren. If you're white, Vitamin D/Calcium deficiancy.
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Post by Victim ~*of *~Circumstances on May 6, 2008 7:52:45 GMT -5
^I agree with that assumption about Asians is total BS. I'm Asian and Math is my worst subject! I BARELY EVEN PASS MATH! Literature on the other hand...
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on May 6, 2008 14:36:52 GMT -5
Well, black and white comes from the idea that dirt and the like is brown, and heavily worn clothing is blackened from dirt and the like, so it isn't racist. Cultures such as middle eastern ones still consider white pure despite their darker skin color. And Asians are really over-praised.
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Post by spiritmage234 on May 6, 2008 15:00:35 GMT -5
^Well, I read that in China (and probably another country in that continent) that white is a symbol of death, or, in a less morbid interpretation, silence. Like the 'white rose of silence'.
Ya, it depends on where you go.
Etiquette. : P
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Post by Chibi Chan-o on May 6, 2008 21:06:26 GMT -5
Well, black and white comes from the idea that dirt and the like is brown, and heavily worn clothing is blackened from dirt and the like, so it isn't racist. Cultures such as middle eastern ones still consider white pure despite their darker skin color. And Asians are really over-praised. You obviously haven't been to my school. The only guy going to Harvard from our graduating class is an Asian guy who scored a perfect on his ACT and only missed one question on his SAT. Even the stupid Asians do pretty well. And the black and Hispanic crowd don't even care about their education. They're only there because they have to be. I think these stereotypes arise from the parenting. Asians from the last generation really value education because most of them were immigrants from poor countries where you can't get a decent education. However, other last generation minorities were already here in America so they don't know how good they've got it. I think those with immigrant parents tend to do better in school because their parents force them to do so.
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