|
Post by ZamKenobi on Apr 21, 2008 19:53:57 GMT -5
well, post in the toko thread then. im compiling an updated list of fan fics (pg12 i think) and weve gotten Nandi involved. I do sometimes. I saw your fanfic list, and it's been very helpful. It's just that it's getting close to finals and I haven't had much time to read fanfiction at all. I'll probably be more active during the summer. but if your going to be apart of a bigger fandom to complement Toko, Kataang seems like the obvious choice IMO. I know the Trailer stirred up some zutara activity, but thats was what it was designed to do. kataang's still got that epic story line and everything. but even simpler then that, unlike Zutara, Kataang and Toko both exist at once... I don't really pick my pairings based on which ones go together, obviously from my choice of pairings. I always pick pairings based on several themes that I like best. Forgiveness, redemption, and especially the irony factor: falling in love with someone you would least expect yet is so similar to you if you go beneath the surface. Basically, I pick pairings based on which characters I think would go together best or I think would be most interesting together, regardless of whether they can coexist or have a chance in canon (actual romantic hints are so overrated ). Unfortunately, this means that I tend to like ships that have little chance of becoming canon, though I try to look on the bright side and think that this gives me more creative freedom to think of ways the relationship could go, and when they do get interaction, even if it's not romantic, and I can freaking fangirl all over the place. I'm not sitting there waiting for them to just kiss already, I'm just happy if they talk and maybe develop a relationship, even platonic. I've tried to like Kataang in the past because I like the idea of love growing from friendship, but I've failed. I've found that I'm incapable of liking Kataang. I won't deny that it's a good ship, but Katara's motherly nature really gets in the way for me. I'm constantly wavering between apathy and outright dislike of Kataang. Right now it's apathy just because I'm so freaking excited that platonic Zutara has been confirmed. Also, Aang is a character that I almost find unshippable, which I'll address later. also, that trailer sort of brought the AS aangst to light... I noticed this too, and I actually talked about this in the trailer discussion board. I'm not sure if this is what you're thinking of, but my post is here. Anyway, I'm putting this at the bottom because it's also a question I meant to ask to the board in general. Earlier I mentioned that sometimes I find Aang unshippable. There are certain characters in ever fandom I have that I find impossible to pick someone that I like them with, even if I absolutely love the character. I mentioned Aang, but I think Sokka is a better example for me, ironically enough. Sokka has so many romantic interests, and I love him to death, but I just don't have anyone that I like to put him with. I don't mind the ships. I love Toph, and I love Suki more and more with the trailer, but for some reason I can't find Tokka or Sukka interesting. Most of the time I feel that way with Aang, with the exception of Taang when I'm feeling into it. Does anyone else have unshippable characters, or am I just weird?
|
|
Shizuma
penguin
Can0n Wh0re
Posts: 17
|
Post by Shizuma on Apr 21, 2008 20:03:10 GMT -5
I'm normally not a huge fan of tragic Separated-By-Cruel-Circumstance ships, but Maiko is definitely an exception. It contains so many of my favorite romantic plotlines: childhood crushes, love through adversity, casual coupley downtime with outmaking, etc. And, ironically, Maiko has become the kind of relationship that many Zutarians always wanted their ship to become: star-crossed-lovers on opposing sides of a war, whose love is destined to overcome battle lines and affect positive change in the world.
Though I really like Sukka, and acknowledge its dominant status in canon, my preferred Sokka ship is Tokka by far. Mostly because I love Toph dearly and don't want to see her hurt, but also because I'm incredibly curious to see how all of the Tokka set-up gets resolved with Suki hanging around. Hopefully it will be more hilarious and heart warming than crushingly sad.
And, of course, my favorite ship of all time, my foreverotp, Kataang. I just... don't even know how to summarize my epic love of their epic love, so I will just flail and type some hearts. <3333333333
|
|
|
Post by taiyo *on limited hiatus* on Apr 21, 2008 20:46:46 GMT -5
I placed down Zutara, Taang, and other (to acknowledge Sisterly Katoph cuz I'm a sap like that. ) But I honestly like/ship practically all the Sokka and Zuko ships (minus the incest/slash ones) and Toph ships (minus femslash). I just need to venture more into....Tetoph and Older!Toko. Taang: I'm too lazy to repeat my thoughts for this pairing so here's last night's post I did at Kataangpool www.kataangpool.proboards56.com/index.cgi?board=shipping&action=display&thread=165&page=3Zutara: Even when I converted to Taang, I couldn't bring myself to ship this ship 'cause I didn't know what spark Zutarians could've possibly seen in it. Sure I wanted them to become friends but I didn't ship them. Then Clear showed me her livejournal for why she ships Zutara and that gave me insight on Zutara's potential. From there I grew to like it and then, oddly, fell in love with it watching The Waterbending Masters. XD Seeing Katara fight Pakku reminded me of Zuko. She was persistent, stubborn, and refused to give up. I was physically seeing how similar they could be for the first time and that view has heightened my love for Zutara ever since. Sisterly Katoph: I've always friendshipped Katoph but it heightened after The Desert and even so more after Tales of Ba Sing Se. I have nothing more to say except I squealed when Katara hugged her in The Runaway (That was on my Season 3 "wishlist" too <333) and it was SO good to hear Bryan and Mike say they act like sisters during The Chase commentary. <33
|
|
Escalus (Syn)
Avatar Kyoshi
Your Avatar title might impress some people, but not me.
Posts: 1,336
|
Post by Escalus (Syn) on Apr 21, 2008 21:20:35 GMT -5
I picked Kataang, Maiko, and Sukka.
Zuko is my favorite character in the show. I can tell you that right now. Its not that I don't give Zutara alot of credit, its more that I just dont like the akwardness of it all. Katara is not really one to become a star-crossed lover of the enemy. She is a character that has always had to be motherly. She's always had to be the responsible woman of the people, and most of all the gaang. That's why I like Kataang as much as I do. Aang has definatly matured from the kid Katara has always protected. Then in the start of Season Three, she starts to realize that she is just another kid like Aang, with the same feelings and problems.
Many people like to take the character of Mai down, but I enjoy a character that has deep emotional problems. She is caught between being a secluded girl, and opening up to the person she cares about. Zuko is out to prove something, wants to find his destiny. Its a classic opposites attract.
I would not mind Tokka, if Suki was not part of the picture. It is a great pairing in its own right, but I find I like Sukka better on the basis of Sokka's personality, and Suki's warrior attitude. Sokka may be a wisecracking meat-eater, but deep down he wants to prove something much the same way Zuko does. When something bothers him, he likes to get in the face of it. Suki holds a kind heart, but has a very outspoken warrior spirit. They eqach hold something the other longs for, but have the same mission.
I can honestly say that for Toph, I do feel shortchanged. I want to ship her, but I really havent clung to one as of yet. (I'm talking ones that do not deal with Sokka, Aang, or Zuko) I guess I would think she would travel the world, and find someone as hard-headed as she is.
On to the recent finale trailer.......... well, I'm not sure what I think of it. If it does go Zutara I will not be entirly happy about it.... its just I think that adding it now is just a bit low after most of the show building up to Kataang. The one thing I'm concerned about is that they will pull a "Aang is just a kid, I love him like a brother" sort of thing I have witnessed in some fanfictions.
|
|
Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
|
Post by Zenjamin on Apr 22, 2008 16:58:48 GMT -5
when I have time, ill prob go back with some quoted responses, but in the meantime, Ill post a conversation I had with another member that shows that Toph would be the best person to help Zuko, and Zuko would be the best person to help Toph. Disclaimer: when we talk about Toko, it is only platonic at first, and romantic once they are older. Heya guys. Ive said before how Toph would be better for Zuko's personality then anybody else. About how she would encourage him to be the best of himself without ignoring his problems(mai) or telling him how to act(katara). "Snap out of it sunshine. you know what needs to be done. Just be who you are, not what others think you should be. you have the answer already" but I havent really given much thought as to how Zuko would benefit Toph in a relationship(or anybody for that matter:P) I know they could bond over being from noble blood whose parents just didnt understand who they were as individuals... but what else? what could Zuko bring to Toph, that nobody else could? This is a good point that I haven't really thought of. The sympathy factor on the parents thing is of course the first thing I thought of, but you already have that... Something else I thought of was that he might be able to give her the reality check that she gives the others when they're wrong. She doesn't baby Aang when it comes to earthbending, and she wasn't afraid to put the gaang in their place when she knew they were being childish. However, as often as I think Toph has these mature moments (defending Zuko, suggesting going to the source of firebending), I think she has just as many immature moments. The Runaway was a good indication of that. Sure, Toph can grow out of immaturity but I think a major issue with Toph is her pride, which isn't so easily gotten rid of. I think Zuko can understand this because this is something he's gotten past. Toph's pride however isn't so completely and obviously detrimental to her physical and mental health, so I don't think it's something that she'll get over as much as Zuko. This might lead to a problem when she needs those reality checks that I was talking about, when she's wrong and her partner knows it. It's extremely hard to fight against Toph even if only with words because of her pride. So far, the only person who has really been able to do this is Katara as a mother figure, and even she didn't do it well until Sokka explained his and Katara's circumstances. I don't really see Sokka or Aang confronting Toph like that. Sokka might, but honestly I can only think of in TWAT when Toph was missing, he was like, "Let her play with her rocks, I'm not in a hurry to have her yelling at us again." To me, that seems like an indication of what they be like. I honestly think Sokka might fight a little while but would probably overall give up and just let her have it her way unless it was extremely important that she know that she's wrong. In Aang's case, Toph had to actually teach Aang to fight back during the series, so I honestly think he would avoid the argument even more than Sokka. Zuko on the other hand I think wouldn't back down. Sure, he doesn't have as much pride as he used to, but I don't think that means he'll let Toph push him around like she does the others. I think he would let her vent we she needed to without saying anything (he's already shown that he could do this with Katara before they were even on the same side), but if she's doing something stupid, I think he would try to put her in her place. Try being the key word, but I definitely think he would try more and succeed more than Sokka and Aang. I don't mean that I think Toph and Zuko would fight and bicker constantly, but I think that Zuko would be able to fight more successfully against Toph when he needed to. Finally, I think that Zuko could help Toph get over some of her insecurities. Toph seems so strong and doesn't really seem to care that she's blind most of time, but there are times when she's shown that being blind affects her emotionally. Usually when we think of Zuko's scar in relationship to Toph, we think that it would be advantageous on Zuko's side because she won't judge him based on looks, but I think it would also work to Toph's advantage knowing that he has some sort of physical deformity, especially over his eye (parallel omg!). For the few times when Toph feels affected by her blindness, like when she was in the water and when she became slightly insecure over her lack of girliness and her looks, I think that knowing that Zuko also has some sort of glaring, obvious weakness, even if only making him physically less appealing, would help her connect to him more. It's part of the reason why I think the scar-touching scenario seems so intimate to me, because it's a connection on both side, not just Zuko. I'll try to think of other reasons when I have a chance, since right now I need to study and this post is long enough already. On a completely random note, does anyone else think that "Sparky" is kind of a weak nickname for Toph to give to Zuko? I just don't think it fits him that well, mainly because when I think of spark I think of electricity, even though I realize it could work for a flame.... Verry karma worthy. The parent issues will parallel, along with the deformity. Also, it seems that zuko has finally learned the lesson of humility that Iroh was trying to teach him, and he could pass that on to Toph. “pride is not the opposite of shame, but rather its source. True humility is the only antidote to shame.” Toph is kind of inwardly insecure. and Zuko is outwardly insecure, thinking he needs to maintain appearances for others. Obviously, zuko has no problem with his initial internal weakness. "Ive always had to struggle and fight. and that's made me strong." And Toph has no problem with her public image "I dont care what other people think, I know who I am" Each could strengthen that within the other, and it is exactly what they need. I would be verry surprised if Toph doesnt remind Zuko that his father doesnt define who he is, he does. And I can so see Zuko telling Toph her blindness makes her strong. And that enduring strength makes her noble and beautiful. EDIT: Zutara! They'd have one heck of a relationship, think of all the fireworks! After Katara puts aside her petty resentments (Okay so he DID try to have them all killed) they will look like the best couple. I think look wise they work well together (plus maybe she can heal him). I'll root for Aang when he grows some hair (and keeps it) and grows a little taller (deeper voice couldn't hurt). Plusss Zuko looks pretty kickin' with his current do. actually, I think (older)Toko would be the best looking couple out of every ship. (including kataang, though aang is looking to have a more manly build each episode.) I know thats a strongly opinionated thing. but just read This. (excellent, but short one-shot)
|
|
|
Post by Lavabender on Apr 23, 2008 6:27:29 GMT -5
Now, I’m not a hardcore shipper- heck, this is the first time I’ve shipped anything at all, but I’ve heard that from a lot of people- so I’m not going to be able to pick out the best reasons or read between the lines and see the foreshadowing that most shippers pick out on sight. So, bare with my sub-par shipping reasons, ‘kay? XD Listed from least to greatest on my ‘shipper-scale’: KATAANG: In all actuality, I’m not passionate about Kataang. Heck, I dislike Katara, so that could be it. But it truly is epic and cute, and Aang seems to be so in love with her that it amuses me to no end. Would I be disappointed if Zutara happened? No, not if it was well done, and I wouldn’t expect any less of Bryke. SUKKA: Yet again, not so much that I ship it but that I prefer it to the alternatives. Not a fan of Tokka, didn’t like Tylokka, and Yue is dead, so… But really, Sukka is indeed a beautiful ship, and Sokka’s expression in DotBS made me appreciate it so much more. TOKO: Ah, yes- the only ship that I actually and truly enjoy to hear about. Toko is just perfect for me- even if it didn’t become Canon, I’d love it. I get tingly thinking about it, because it’s just that awesome. Others have said it much better than I could ever say why I love Toko so much. The first thing that drew me in, however, was Iroh. Hearing him say how similar they were made me see their parallels and opposites- parents who care too much and a parent who cares too little (parent s? Ursa did leave Zuko with Ozai… <.<), both come from the higher ends of society and willingly chose to leave for something much larger than themselves (and because being there forced them to be people they weren’t), and both adore Iroh. Anyone else think that Iroh would ship Toko? Anything that Iroh approves is definitely awesome in my book, and Iroh approves of Toph, so… Honorable mention: Foamzula, Tyzula, and Jetko. What can I say? I guess I’m a crackshipper.
|
|
Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
|
Post by Zenjamin on Apr 25, 2008 15:33:15 GMT -5
as a kataang shipper, Ive always felt secure with my ships probibility, and so never felt the need to ship Maiko alongside it. so while some kataangers might be further encouraged by this the Toko side of me is sad... though not as much as I expected.
|
|
|
Post by superdoglac on Apr 25, 2008 16:46:20 GMT -5
My favs are Zutara, Sukka and Taang. Zutara: Why? Because Kataang is too easy and boring. I mean the protagonist getting the girl he wants. Yay. Woo. Happens all the time. Maiko is even more boring then Kataang. Zuko and Mai are way to similar. Seriously all they did together was kiss and complain to each other XD. Zutara is less likely to happen but its a lot more exciting. If Zuko was the same as he was in Season 1 I wouldn't support Zutara since he was a maaaajor jerk but now I think they'd be such a cute couple X3 Sukka: I supported it half-heartedly for the longest time but after seeing the NYCC video of them on youtube I became obsessed (I've basically stripped ff.net and DA of all the Sukka stuff they've got XD). They really seem to love each other so passionately. Who the heck would wanna break those lovebirds apart? Taang: To be perfectly honest I don't know why I love Taang so much. I guess they just seem perfect together somehow
|
|
melloyello
Appa
Beware the Chittering Monkey
Posts: 229
|
Post by melloyello on Apr 26, 2008 21:20:44 GMT -5
Well, I really don't ship/support anything, but I do like some ships better than others. If I had to pick favourites, I would probably go with:
Zutara - It's really different, and rather unexpected. The dark, unhappy, physically disfigured guy gets the girl? That never happens! (I realize a lot of people see Zuko as hugely attractive, but I've always thought of him as that morose, bitter guy that nobody talks to in high school, and I love the idea of that guy getting the girl.) Katara's personality also becomes darker as this season progresses, and that's something that Zuko can identify with. Of course the enemies to friends to lovers transistion is one that's been done in fiction before, but it happens often in life too. I have a friend who bitterly fought & hated a guy that she has now been happily married to for 5 years. Oddly enough, he was the sullen, morose type and she was the outspoken, empowered type. He's learning to be more vocal, (and less broody) and she's becoming a little more subdued. I like them both far more together than I ever liked them when they were apart. Part of me likes Zutara as fanon more than canon, not because I like Kataang, but because it shows that romance can pop up where you least expect it. Whether the writers intended it or not, the characters really would be great together. Life is like that. More often than not, the thing you never planned for will be the thing that sweeps you off your feet.
Taang - IRL, I know someone just like Aang, 'cept he's quite a bit older. He's cute, and fun and never settles down. Without his wife to ground him, he'd never get anywhere in life. It's not that he doesn't have drive, he just needs direction. I don't think Aang is ever really going to grow up the way some people expect. He's always going to be the show off at parties, the first one to goof off at work, and the last one to show up for a meeting. I love that kind of person because they remind the rest of us when to take a break, but at times they need somebody to remind them of thier goals and the realities of thier situation. For Aang, Toph would be that person. And she's confident enough to let Aang take center stage without it bothering her.
I like most, if not all the crackships, but my absolute favourites have to be Ursa/Iroh (mostly because it would mean that Iroh was Zuko's father after all), and Azuki (because Azula wouldn't be involved with someone she didn't feel she could completely control - so a prisoner would be just perfect).
|
|
Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
|
Post by Zenjamin on Apr 26, 2008 21:45:58 GMT -5
Well, I really don't ship/support anything, but I do like some ships better than others. If I had to pick favourites, I would probably go with: Zutara - It's really different, and rather unexpected. The dark, unhappy, physically disfigured guy gets the girl? That never happens! Another way to say it would be "the tall dark and handsom anti-hero gets the girl? That never happens! *suppresses an eye roll.* we must have verry different experences in media, but that alwas happens. the writer always wants to "surprise" you. so they use the same formula over and over. honestly, I was alittle sick of it, and the direction that avatar is going is a plesant suprise for me. writers dont need to mold charcters/events around a romance to make it surprise us, they should just go with what makes sense, IMO. have you ever seen them together? this is another common theme in some fannon relationships(not really a bad thing), imo. People a charcters(s) but something bugs them about them. so, without ever seeing them react as a couple, they just make assumptions that if they were to get together, they would stretghen the good, and erase the bad. when in fact, the Maternal/fiery and proud/fiery personalities would not have the beneficial effect people would be hoping for... all IMO of coarse. Im sorry, but to me, you just described exactly what katara has been doing all series. (when it mattered at least, I can think of some exceptions when she just wanted to see him happy. both katara's and Toph's personalities can get aang to focus in... only, Bitter Work showed us which personality would make him happy, and which would not. And even there, Toph had to take Katara's advice of "positive reinforcement"... albeit abit altered. PS. nobody wants to argue against Toko? Ill give karmas to somebody who gives a well thought out response to that post above.
|
|
melloyello
Appa
Beware the Chittering Monkey
Posts: 229
|
Post by melloyello on Apr 26, 2008 22:30:00 GMT -5
Zen, seriously, READ THE ENTIRE POST! or just don't bother to respond at all. Two of the three quotes you made were completely out of context. The second one in particular really annoyed me. Yes, I knew my real life friends both before & after they were married! I wasn't talking about Aang & Katara or Katara & Zuko or any character in Avatar. I was trying to illustrate how those two personality types (Katara/Zuko) interact in a long term relationship in real life. As for your first comment, if you actually had read one sentence beyond the portion you quoted, you would notice that I had already stated that I knew I saw things differently than most of the fandom. So your little blurb on how typical Zutara isn't at all relevant to my post. Bottom line: We see things differently. Instead of constantly challenging what people think, try to realize that people have different perspectives, and that it's ok that people like different things. Even if they're not *gasp* canon! Debating isn't always about winning. Sometimes it's about seeing the other side of an issue. One of the reasons I like Zutara is because I took the time when I came here to find out about the ship, even though it was pretty unpopular at the time. I rewatched some episodes from a 'zutarian' perspective, and I got to see things totally differently. It was great - fun, but broadening as well. Zen, sometimes in these threads you can come off as a little combative. I've enjoyed debating with you in the past, but I do want to give you just a tiny bit of advice. When you debate with someone, don't make it about winning or losing. Make it about learning more about the other person's position. See where they're coming from. This way, you gain wisdom not just from your own experience, but from every person that you connect with.
|
|
|
Post by cybertron log on Apr 26, 2008 23:53:23 GMT -5
Well it was quite entertaining everybody's views on why they ship certain people. It's always insightful, learning why some ships are so supported/disliked right from the primary sources.
I used to be a super shipper but over the years I took a step back and mellowed out a bit; one, my friend kept making fun of me, and two, it lets me see things from other people's PoVs without getting riled up. Let's me see all the pros and cons of their ships and my own.
That said...
If Aang is to be shipped, I'd rather have it Taang than anything else. Truth is, I like it better with him being alone. He's the kind of character who doesn't need to be paired with anyone romantically to finish defining his character; his deep friendships with everyone should account for it. His "all over the place; bouncy, bouncy" outlook is endearing and I personally thinks it works better when he's not paired with any one person. I like to think his love for Katara is still a phase, and that eventually he'll grow out of it. Also because he's an Air Nomad, it's hard for me to see him in a relationship with anyone. It seems more reasonable for him to have brother/sister relationships instead.
But if he's being shipped, I'd go with Taang. People have suggested that Toph is something of an anchor for Aang, and I find that an appealing aspect of it. They are two characters (personalities/types) who can balance each other out on various levels. He's more childlike, she's more mature (of course they're still very young, so Toph's maturity is suspect; probably she's just more serious on every level). He's extremely adaptable to change (and perhaps a mite indecisive?); she's stubborn as all hell - talk about all the colorful arguments that could come out of that! At least they're great with pranks and jokes.
I really adore Sukka. Princess Yue is one thing, but I find these two characters to be the most stable out of the whole lot; they have the most realistic relationship. They are both very capable warriors, they're nonbenders (not that important, but I like that aspect because it makes them very innovative people), and they sincerely care for each other. Their relationship's always changing and developing and adapting to any given situation, which is what all good relationships should be - they shouldn't be stagnant fairytales.
I also like the fact that Bryke actually gives them screentime. I like that they care about their enormous cast; not a lot of people do that, so this is something like a breath of fresh air. (And a reason why I like Avatar)
You can reasonably assume that the mere mention of my previous preferences suggest that I support Zutara...and I do. I'll be honest - I actually started paying attention to ATLA because of the previews for Season 2's CoD. Before that I dismissed ATLA as a wannabe anime for kids, but this cartoon quite pleasantly surprised me on all fronts and all levels.
I won't reject Kataang/Maiko because of all the evidence in support of them, but I support Zutara more. Kataang has too many iffy variables from me, from the not-so-important age difference to the more important personality and role-to-play issues. Apparently the Boiling Rock episode's given us a glimpse into who Mai really is, but I'm not sold on the relationship. The personalities just seem to clash; there's nothing particularly dynamic about it.
Besides, who said that a character's first love should be his/her only love?
Excluding the fact it's not canon, there's a multitude of reasons why Zutara works, from the cliched and mundane "opposites attract" to the more unusual aspects - melloyello hit it spot on by saying that disfigured characters normally don't get any love. Of course Zuko can't be supremely ugly (think of the kidies who watch the show), but his disfiguring scar does partially separate him from the brooding antihero archetype. It helps that his disfiguration is visible, out there for the world to see.
I find Zutara most appealing because of the dynamics involved - I'd rather have personalities that work well with each other than anything else. They come from similar backgrounds and have similar personalities - stubborn, fierce, temperamental - but with enough differences to make them true individuals. Sometimes Katara looks like a militant humanitarian, which is intriguing and sets her apart from the typical archetype of the female healer and mother figure. In the case of Zuko, he reflects what people are like when raised in a particular society - his culture's what instilled in him honor and dignity (with a healthy dose of arrogance and bigotry) but he gets his sense of humanity and fairness from his mother and uncle, which sets him apart from Ozai and Azula, and makes him an atypical antihero.
Two atypical characters with tempers to match? To me, that reads "irresistable".
The finale trailer gives me some hope, at least for a platonic relationship. At least they're starting to get along really well, which is a step forward for both characters. Actually, that's what I do like about them - they're constantly learning and adapting to what they find out about themselves and the world around them.
That's what I really like about the three ships I support - they all have room for change, for better or worse.
Ha ha, look at the rambling...
|
|
Zenjamin
Ba Sing Se Zuko
Toko supporter
Posts: 2,617
|
Post by Zenjamin on Apr 27, 2008 0:18:58 GMT -5
Zen, seriously, READ THE ENTIRE POST! or just don't bother to respond at all. I did read the entire post, but I was in a hurry, lets see what I missed. Ah, but I was talking about Katara and Zuko. and they are what really matter. I understand that there are situations where relationships with similar personalities to zuko's and katara's work out just peachy... but with a minor in phycology, I can tell you that this is usuially not the case. So yes, I completely concede that it can work, and I wish your friends a happy life together. however, it is also likely that the maternal/pushy person would try to exert their influence on the other, while the proud/conservitive one would resist that influence so as to not lose face. Rather then ramble on any longer, I will just say that; Your experience shows that it can work, the collective experience of phycology shows that it is unlikely to work, and (romantic)zutaran experience does not exist and is not yet a factor in the equation. However, im gonna play devil's advocate here against myself, rather then have you bring up this point later. (though I dont think I can stop it) the point you should have brought up is that, we already know that zuko and katara are going to at least be friends. So we know their personalities must have some sort of beneficial relationship. So would not that be able to affect romance just as it does friendship? And to that question, I would try to side-step it by saying that, romance puts those personalities in a different unkonwn context. Then I would move on to katara and zuko already being in love with other people/personalities, so we already know what works for them, and I would branch off from there. Ah, but I did read that in your post... I was just further exposing it. and stating it in less watered down terms. In a debate If someone supports you, they might requote you and further expand on it in their own context. same thing if they are against you. ... I suppose I should have let that one fly. OK, now your just putting words in my mouth without any context. Never did I argue that cannonicity makes something superior, or that different points of view is a bad thing. Jesus, just look at my avatar title! I support Toko more then I do Kataang. So dont pretend that im some sort of self-righteous Equus asinus, who thinks that everyone should bow to the establishment... on second thought, its best not to take that position with anyone. It is belittling to everybody involved. True. Sometimes I get a little too into the debate... But personally, it is through debate that I learn. In This thread inparticular, I learn about the strengths of other ships, and the weaknesses of my own. you cant construct a sound arguement without knowing that. debate is, by definition, verbal combat ;D ... but im sorry if I come off as too strong. Ill try to tone it down a bit and concede abit more. *looks at Iroh quote in sig* again, I learn much from debate, but some times I get so caught up in the game of it that I do not reveal what I have learned of the opponent, unless it benifits my posistion. ya, I gotta stop that. Be more outwardly "chill". *Is still looking for someone to challenge Toko.*
|
|
pg15
Avatar Roku
"Since beginningless time, darkness thrives in the void, but always yields to purifying light."
Posts: 1,248
|
Post by pg15 on Apr 27, 2008 0:59:31 GMT -5
Ok, that's it. I'm retracting my vote for Kataang.
...and revoting for BOTH Kataang AND Maiko. They've got me. I'm in.
I won't explain myself for obvious reasons.
|
|
|
Post by textbender on Apr 27, 2008 10:38:07 GMT -5
I "ship" Zutara, Taang, and Sukka. But really, I just ship what I think will happen. I don't hold onto my "own" desires. If the show/book/film suggests it, then I feel it. I discovered Avatar recently, and I have seen enough to suggest to me that Kataang is not as Cannon as people think, and Zutara is not as delusional, either. In fact, after discovering this forum, I was a bit shocked that Zutara wasn't the major ship, and that Zutarians were treated with "no respect"!!!
In the Harry Potter universe, whoever was pairing Draco and Hermione was way off in fanfic land. But we know enough about Zukko to see that he is not the Draco type. He is much more complex. I was also a Ron and Hermione person, not because I loved the ship, but because there were moments of romantic tension that only those two ever pulled off, in particular by the end of the 4th book. But I kept my mind open to Harry and Hermione arguments. In the end, I think Zutara is more interesting than and Harry Potter pairing.
Zukko was a good kid when he was young. He had an evil sister, and he was struggling to understand her evil through partial imitation. That is why he threw the big piece of bread on the little turtleduck's head. He knew instinctively it was wrong, but he was also struggling to understand that mindset. And he showed his mother as well, in order to get an adult's feedback. That foreshadowed, I believe, his bad choice in The Crossroads of Destiny. He had to make the wrong choice first, before his gut told him that was not where he wanted to be. That is just the kind of person he is. He had to have the thing he was going to reject.
I think it is important to understand what kind of hero Zukko is in order to see that psychology allows for his pairing with Katara just fine. Zukko is a good person, who has a messed up family past, and has had a lot of issues to struggle with. In the end, he has made the right choice. The whole reason he was banished is that he spoke up in defense of the troops. That is something Katara would have done as well.
But mostly there have been moments throughout that have given a sense of what is to come. To return to Zukko's character again, the fact that we saw how cool his uncle can be from the beginning makes him look less evil, and we learn eventually that he is good. His finding of Katara's necklace was the first symbol that made me wonder what its purpose was. There was just intense feeling associated for me with that moment. "Evil" Zukko placing the necklace around Katara's neck... "saving" her from the pirates... I did not ship them then, but I wondered why those details were there. And the question of whether Zukko will truly be evil is planted in our heads from the beginning, so that those interactions don't look quite as evil with that in mind. We know he is being bad, but there is foreshadowing of some sort.
I think Katara wants an intense guy. And yet, although she is also intense, those two together somehow lighten up just a bit around each other. Katara's former anger with him turns into teasing and joking. There is more tension between those two. And I have no problems with the so called "cliche." There is nothing new under the sun. Cliche is not what really happens, but its rendition. I don't think Avatar will make Zutara cliche.
The Kataang ship from what I have seen in Cannon is a tease of the fans. I think it is a very cute puppy crush on Aang's part that will continue to develop into a beautiful friendship, but nothing romantic. I know this will seem like a completely inappropriate analogy, but Aang's feelings for Katara remind me of Scarlet O'Hara's feelings for Ashley. She did not know herself well enough to choose a matching love interest. Of course, that's about it for the parallel. I don't think Aang has matured enough to know what he wants.
The age difference is important, I think. It is not a matter of 2 years, (which obviously is derisory, although not at that age!) but a matter of two different age groups: teen and pre-teen. Aang is this goofy kid, and Katara is this matron. I enjoy seeing the whole crush thing, the "ship" interaction between them in various episodes, but in the end I think it truly is all just Aang's "daydream" underneath. To Katara, he'll always be... Momo...
On the other hand, I love Toph and Aang. They are both still too young and immature to develop romance by summer's end though... But I hope we'll see something. Toph does not treat Aang like her child, but like an equal. She shows none of the protectiveness and concern that Katara does. She doesn't mind roughing him up a bit. She also has immaturity issues just like Aang does. But I just know that if ever he opens his eyes to notice her (and same with her, to notice him) it will be one nice romantic moment. I will feel Aang will have truly matured then.
And the last ship is Sukka. I don't "ship" it in the sense of feeling the romance deeply, waiting with "baited breath" for the first sign of mutual recognition between the characters. It is so Cannon that it is inevitable. But things could heat up a bit for us the spectators after a certain play and a bit of jealousy. It's hard to ship Sokka, because he is so silly most of the time. Someone like Zukko is easier to imagine in a romance...
I just wonder who will end up with Ty Lee and Mai. Maybe the special episode of school time shipping will come true and Ty Lee will get the earth bender (I forgot his name). But Mai alone breaks my heart. I hope she is not going to die...
|
|