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Post by spiderswing432 on Mar 7, 2008 16:40:35 GMT -5
If people don't want to say the pledge, then they don't have to. I don't think a teacher can force a kid to say it, can they?
And really, I don't see the big deal with the "under God" part. If you don't believe in God, fine. Don't say it. Nobody is forcing anyone to do anything, it's just a few words. Like somone before me said, just don't say anything during that part.
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Post by darkblood_alchemist on Mar 7, 2008 17:00:11 GMT -5
I personally believe that the phrase "under God" should be removed from the Pledge. America is based on the concept of equality for all, the minority as well as the majority. Removing the phrase from the Pledge would make it neutral to all religions (or non-religion), as it should be. Many of you have mentioned that the majority would never allow it. Who is to say that some of the majority does not support the minority? Yes, there would still be a substantial difference in size between the two opinion groups, but it may be enough to make a difference.
As for why do people even care? First of all, it violates the Constitution by having the state endorse religion. It doesn't matter that most people believe in a monotheistic faith; it is not everyone, and it makes it seem as if the government is trying to tell people what to believe.
Secondly, the main issue is not the Pledge itself, but that it is said in public schools and heard by young people, who are easily influenced by what they hear. There was a Supreme Court case about a father who was opposed to the phrase being used because he was an atheist and didn't want his daughter learning about religion (the case was eventually dropped due to a technicality; the father was divorced and didn't have legal custody of his daughter; so the issue never reached the Court).
Saying "under God" may not seem like a big deal to those who believe in a monotheistic faith, but to someone who doesn't believe in God, or believes in more than one God, it is as if they are forced to deny their faith. Yes, they don't have to say those two words, but they have the right to be able to say the entire Pledge without being made uncomfortable by the profession of faith.
As for many of those who posted and stated that kids are forced to say the Pledge; they are not. No one can be legally forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance, especially not in a public school. The only rule is that others should (I'm not sure if that should be "must") remain silent while the pledge is recited. They don't even have to stand if they don't want to.
(sorry it's so long...we debated this in school, so I have a lot to say)
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Post by Sir Tukkun on Mar 7, 2008 18:11:04 GMT -5
I dont care about the government but religion is supposed to be seperated from government. It should be removed, also from the court system where you swear in gods name. It should defenitly be removed.
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Post by Grimmjow of the Funk on Mar 7, 2008 21:01:37 GMT -5
I believe it needs to remain in the pledge. Regardless of whether or not you believe in a high being, the founding fathers of this country did. The Pledge was a solemn oath that our forefather swore upon prior to building the foundation in which we still base our everyday lives as Americans- The Constitution. Although it might sound a bit nostalgic, I think some of our earlier roots need to be preserved, such as the pledge, in its original wording. When people lose hope in things, it is best said to go back to the beginning of when things started... our pledge is the beginning. It needs to be left alone. Just as people expect others to be tolerant of their lives/lifestyles, everyone needs to be equally tolerant to the very roots of this country. thats bs if everything was left alone we would still have slavery and the founding fathers believed in that
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ilovetaang03
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Post by ilovetaang03 on Mar 7, 2008 21:27:27 GMT -5
I dont care about the government but religion is supposed to be seperated from government. It should be removed, also from the court system where you swear in gods name. It should defenitly be removed. yes! the goverment is sperate from religon. so they should not say it. in the pledge ur pledging to america. not "god"
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Post by CountessRachel on Mar 9, 2008 23:29:31 GMT -5
As for many of those who posted and stated that kids are forced to say the Pledge; they are not. No one can be legally forced to say the Pledge of Allegiance, especially not in a public school. The only rule is that others should (I'm not sure if that should be "must") remain silent while the pledge is recited. They don't even have to stand if they don't want to. Actually, there are many instances where kids who don't even stand up to acknowledge the morning pledge are punished. I know at my school some kids tried to not stand up and they got detention for refusing to say the pledge. Yeah, I agree with you, it's illegal to force someone to say the pledge. But that doesn't stop people from doing it anyway. =/
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girlunderglass
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Post by girlunderglass on Mar 13, 2008 14:06:15 GMT -5
For those that feel my reasoning was weak about keeping it in the pledge, I'll offer you yet a second reason why it should stay.
Next time you're out and around your town, take a look at how many churches, temples and mosques there are. Any place of worship.
Those establishments are there because there are people within your community that support it. So, with so many people in this country that have a belief in a higher being, why should they get rid of it?
No matter what anybody does to make something right by another, it's always going the tick the next guy off.
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Chevalier Vi Liberté
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Post by Chevalier Vi Liberté on Mar 13, 2008 19:27:47 GMT -5
^ GUG, I am replying to your earlier post. It true that the founding fathers of the country belived in God but the pledge was made after the country was created and the under God "part" was not added until about 50 years ago. I personally believe it should be taken out from the pledge but I don't consider it a major issue seeing as our country has more imporant things to deal with.
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Post by psylum on Mar 14, 2008 21:37:04 GMT -5
Interestingly enough, even though I am an Athiest, there is an answer to this debate right there in the bible.
During the serman on the mound, Jesus(you know, the son of God, the Messiah, etc etc.) actually tells those listening to not prey in Public and to keep your faith personal. It's right there in the Bible, Jesus doesn't want you to prey in public, and I'm fairly certain that pledging alligience to God counts and preying in public.
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Post by writer on Mar 14, 2008 22:53:16 GMT -5
FAIL
If you are Atheist why are misquoting religious text and badly at all? You don't know what it means I find it offensive that you spiting of verses without understanding the context.
So let me clairfy.
Here is the verse from the NIV Bible
That is the correct verse. What he is saying is, don't be a hypocrite and pray loudly in public just to garder attention. He's says if you are truely serious pray in private to the one you want. Not the public but Him. And is suppose to answer your prayer (5 years of Catheteism and Bible Study and this is what I got)
Pledge of Allegience isn't a prayer. It's might be invocation, but not a prayer. It was used as way to find Atheistic Commies during the Red Scare. After all a god-less commie wouldn't invoke the name of God in pledge to US. AmIrite?
Also what Jesus means it not to make drama over god. Praying in public isn't a sin, we do it all the time. Say grace at means, worship god in church. I've seen christain sports teams pray during a huddle. It's not wrong at all.
*takes off preist robes and white collar*
BTW I'm agnostic
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Post by psylum on Mar 14, 2008 23:14:45 GMT -5
Being Athiest doesn't mean you can't read religious texts and try to understand the mindset of a religions' followers.
On top of that, I've felt the way I feel about the pledge of aligience from the time I was about nine. I've always interpreted that passage the way I'm interpreting it now. Your religion is personal and should not be imposed on others.
Being an Athiest doesn't mean I'm not getting it, but I'll go with what your saying for a moment and run with that. So Jesus didn't want people making drama over God, and the Pledge isn't a preyer, it's an invocation. However it's still a public reference to God, a god that not only Athiest's don't think exists, but a god that Buddists and Hindu's don't belive in as well. A patriotic Buddist of Hindu who want to announce their aliegence to America also have to recignuise a god they don't believe in. This very fact is going to cause drama.
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Post by writer on Mar 14, 2008 23:22:54 GMT -5
See thats all well in good if you were studing christanty but your not. So it seems offenseive to me
Also I am not shoving anything on one
I am correcting you. I told you I am agnostic.
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Post by psylum on Mar 14, 2008 23:40:59 GMT -5
See thats all well in good if you were studing christanty but your not. So it seems offenseive to me Also I am not shoving anything on one I am correcting you. I told you I am agnostic. Well it's sad to say but I might just end up offending you a lot. I've always found the bible, and indeed all religions full of Hypocrocy, though you might be right and I'm misinterpreting every single contradiction and/or taking everything out of context. Anyway, the Pledge of Aliegence should not include mention of invocation of any god for no other reason that the people that make up America worship many different Gods, and thirty million worship no god at all. Adding an invocation to the Jewish/Christian god to the pledge of aligience is just the same as saying you have have to invoke something you believe does not exist. And really, you can prey to whatever you want in whatever way you see fit, as covered by the First Amendment, just don't force me or anyone else to ackowledge it as a requirement for pledging aligience to my country.
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Power
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Post by Power on Mar 15, 2008 0:00:07 GMT -5
Like GUG was saying, there will always be a group of people that will be not be pleased. Drama always occur in any select group. Unless one is going to gain a serious benefit over that being removed from the pledge, I just dont feel it's worth breaking your neck over something so miniscule as this.
People will always make public references to God, there is no stopping that. If it bothers those that simply don't believe in God, move on, its as simple as that.
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Post by psylum on Mar 15, 2008 0:17:19 GMT -5
While I dissagre with the an idea like "under god" being in the Pledge just because a majority think's it's ok, you are right in the sense that a person needs to pick their battles.
This is something that while wrong, bigger fish need to be delt with.
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