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Post by bram on Nov 26, 2007 15:38:19 GMT -5
they're illegal because A: They can't speak english(doesn't apply to all illegal immigrants, I'm pretty sure some countries other than America speak English) B: They take jobs away from legal Americans C: They might be terrorists. They can't vote beause A: They might of came to spread the crazy morals of their countries and that's more then enough for me. A: Give them time to adapt, just because they don't speak your language doesn't mean they're bad citizens. B: I agree with CountessRachel when she says that sending money to their homeland will damage your economy, but I don't see how those people earning American money and spending it in American stores could hurt your economy? America is a huge country with an enormous amount of industry, you won't run out of jobs any time soon. C: Good friend, if you believe every immigrant or foreign person is a terrorist, you will lead a very shallow life in constant fear. Good luck with that.
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Nov 26, 2007 16:11:48 GMT -5
Seconded, Mora. Mike, do you even know *how* difficult it is to become a legal resident of the United States for some people of other countries? I met a 22 year old woman in the Dominican Republic who had a 4 year old son. She worked from 5 AM to 11:30 PM everyday and only got 3 days off every 12 days. In an entire month, she gained $200. To apply for residency at the United States, she would have to have $10,000 in her bank account. Could she complain? Sure, but she'd just lose her job to someone who would do it without complaining. Don't pretend that becoming a US citizen is as easy as reciting the ABCs. I still haven't found any sensical arguments why some people are illegal. In my opinion, the question isn't 'should illegal people vote?', the question is 'why are some people illegal and thus unable to vote in the country they live in, but that just does not accept them?'... To add onto what decoy says, here's a rhetorical question: why should we let people who haven't followed the rules make decisions that affect everyone else who has? I might seem to be contradicting myself, but I know coming to the US is a hard process, however, that doesn't mean I'm saying every immigrant should just hop over the gates when they please...
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Post by spiritmage234 on Nov 26, 2007 16:33:22 GMT -5
I still haven't found any sensical arguments why some people are illegal. In my opinion, the question isn't 'should illegal people vote?', the question is 'why are some people illegal and thus unable to vote in the country they live in, but that just does not accept them?'... You're illegal if you do not go through the proper procedures in order to become a naturalized citizen, and also when the government doesn't even have any record about you. And that's the thing: they aren't accepted because they aren't legal. They shouldn't have a say in a country's legislature if they disobeyed it in the first place. And speaking with Para, I do know that people in third world countries go through all kinds of $@!# and yes, most of them do deserve a better life. But like Para said, that doesn't just mean everybody can just jump the fence. That's like saying that it's legit for every homeless person or welfare mother to rob a party store.
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Post by notreal on Nov 27, 2007 2:26:20 GMT -5
I'm relatively certain there's a illegal immigrant thread, but this is a little bit more specialized. Do you, as an American (Who this discussion is obviously directed towards), think illegal immigrants deserve to vote for people in elections? Absolutely not. Simple. They come here ILLEGALLY, therefore should not have the same rights as LEGAL citizens of the United States. Those who are not a citizen of the country should not have a right to help decide who runs a country in which they don't belong to! And what about those immigrants who come here legally? What about the rights they have worked hard to obtain? Hah. All of their efforts to become a legal citizen are basically wasted if they could have just come right over the border and receive the same rights. -.-
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Post by casettejongen on Nov 27, 2007 10:34:37 GMT -5
Yes! You were all right! Now I see! These people are criminals because they don't have money and the chance for the 'legal' way! So, because our rich western country make it impossible for poor people to become a legal citizen, they should not have the right to vote in the country that they moved to many years ago! I have no idea how I could have missed that!
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Post by spiritmage234 on Nov 27, 2007 11:29:01 GMT -5
Yes! You were all right! Now I see! These people are criminals because they don't have money and the chance for the 'legal' way! So, because our rich western country make it impossible for poor people to become a legal citizen, they should not have the right to vote in the country that they moved to many years ago! I have no idea how I could have missed that! They're criminals because they're illegal. Not because they're poor. Tons of poor people from other countries immigrants here. They use up all their money in order to pass as legal immigrants, and then they start over. Only now that they are in America, they have all the privleges that will ensure that if they work hard, they have security and rights, etc.
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Post by CountessRachel on Nov 27, 2007 13:12:21 GMT -5
Well, it's not the money that gets spent in American stores, it's the labor that goes unrecorded. THAT is what hurts our economy.
I mean. At our rate of industry, you're right. We'll never run out of jobs.
But with all the bargain nuts looking for great deals and low prices at Wal-Mart and what not, it only comes back to haunt us. Competition gets brutal and employers cut labor costs. It's not that the industry has no jobs--its the fact that they don't even consider the lower class Americans who need the jobs in the first place. Period. And a high percentage of Americans that do get the lower wage jobs can't make enough and end up requiring gov't assistance anyway.
Think about it. Why pay $5.50 an hour to an American when a vulnerable Mexican/Cuban/Colombian will take $3.00 instead? People will flock to the store since lower prices can be charged. He won't be able to complain to a union or take legal action if he's hurt on the job...he's illegal after all. And the best part? He's completely disposable. If he disappears, there's 10 other guys right there to take his place! Not a problem so long as we can continue to happily purchase low quality goods at low prices.
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Post by Gran Gran on Nov 27, 2007 16:38:08 GMT -5
It's a vicious cycle: as long as the average customer does not want to pay more than a dollar for a dozen eggs, the production cost has to be kept down. Wages are the biggest chunk of that. Legally it's 5.50 minimum, but the people who work for that - I worked with them - are nothing to write home about and they don't help your production. So you hire those people who will not only do the job for less, they will work nearly anybody into the ground. I am a good worker, but they made me look like slow-mo!
The problem is that to come to America legally, you have to jump through hoops, and the last 6 years didn't help matters (regardless that for those who wish us ill the loopholes are still big enough to fly a plane through - awful pun, I know, but true)
So, we are left with a) Illegals hurt the economy b) but at the same time large part of the agricultural sector would colabs without them c) government is not seeing the issue and making it possible for those folks to be here legally without becoming residents or jumping through hoops, I am thinking restricted work visas that can only be renewed at the home town, for a lot less than a trip with a smuggler would cost, including air fair.
It's not like they are not known in the communities for being illegal, their kids go to school and all...but again, there is a gap between the base and the execution of legislation...but to be able to vote, you really need to prove your loyalty to the country you ant to vote in: Become a citizen!
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Nov 27, 2007 17:23:40 GMT -5
Think about it. Why pay $5.50 an hour to an American when a vulnerable Mexican/Cuban/Colombian will take $3.00 instead? People will flock to the store since lower prices can be charged. He won't be able to complain to a union or take legal action if he's hurt on the job...he's illegal after all. And the best part? He's completely disposable. If he disappears, there's 10 other guys right there to take his place! Not a problem so long as we can continue to happily purchase low quality goods at low prices. Did you ever stop to think for a half second that maybe, just MAYBE, Americans would work here if it weren't for illegals flooding in daily? And on a somewhat separate note, you could get the same effect of 5.50/3.00 an hour thing by lowering the minimum wage. and Casey, poor people can't enter the country? right. which explains why Andrew Carnegie, one of the 4 "Robber Barons" came here as a poor Scot immigrant. as did a whole truckload of other people in the past. and a lot of present immigrants come here due to poverty too. If the people would take their time, they'd get in. patience people, patience
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Post by CountessRachel on Nov 28, 2007 0:16:50 GMT -5
Think about it. Why pay $5.50 an hour to an American when a vulnerable Mexican/Cuban/Colombian will take $3.00 instead? People will flock to the store since lower prices can be charged. He won't be able to complain to a union or take legal action if he's hurt on the job...he's illegal after all. And the best part? He's completely disposable. If he disappears, there's 10 other guys right there to take his place! Not a problem so long as we can continue to happily purchase low quality goods at low prices. Did you ever stop to think for a half second that maybe, just MAYBE, Americans would work here if it weren't for illegals flooding in daily? And on a somewhat separate note, you could get the same effect of 5.50/3.00 an hour thing by lowering the minimum wage. ...What? Americans ARE trying to work here. Lemme repeat myself-- It's the employers that do not hire Americans. To them, illegal workers are the greatest thing since sliced bread. And as sound as lowering minimum wage looks at a glance, it actually has shown to be a downfall. Why? Because of standard of living and inflation. Lowering minimum wage will only decrease the price of labor--not the price of goods and services to the household consumer (if you factor in the elevating price of raw materials, legal necessities, taxes, and shipping costs etc). Keep in mind what I mentioned earlier about an illegal immigrant not being able to file complaints against the employer for any form of discrimination, work-injury, vacation, payment discrepancies etc. The employer doesn't have to pay FICA taxes on an illegal immigrant. He can understate his labor to income ratio and get better tax benefits. Essentially, he's a three-dollar slave. (And in several cases, they go unpaid altogether). Plus, it's already been proven that a family of four (an average-sized American family) cannot live on two parents making minimum wage without some sort of government assistance. What good would lowering it would do??
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Post by Gran Gran on Nov 28, 2007 0:33:34 GMT -5
one single person with no family can't live off of minimum wage...
but also, consider, a 4 % unemployment rate is considered full employment. and where I lived it held steady around there for a long time. The problem is, the jobs that don't pay you have to have no greater qualification except print your name, and that is not proven.
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Post by Karatelover on Dec 5, 2007 18:56:55 GMT -5
Sorry but in America, you have to be a citizen of the country to be even in office. So I don't see how any Illegal Alien would become president. But just in case it does happen! I have an idea! How about they tell the Mexican president to quit sitting on his butt and help ever single Mexican out! Yah there's a thought!
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Post by mikael on Dec 5, 2007 20:06:41 GMT -5
The Constitution and its amendments only apply to American citizens.
So no, they can't vote.
EDIT: I feel I should add that they shouldn't be able to, ever. Yes, citizenship is very difficult to get - A friend of mine and her family are trying, but it's not easy - but trying doesn't make you a citizen. I don't know when this was learned, but the 'A for effort' stuff doesn't apply in the real world, and seeing as their effort, whether or not it's all they can do, doesn't qualify them for the position, they don't reap the benefits of having actually qualified.
An illegal immigrant or legal alien or otherwise being given the right to vote is like me being allowed to vote in a session of Congress directly - I never won an election, did I?
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Post by Gran Gran on Dec 7, 2007 2:56:28 GMT -5
Sorry but in America, you have to be a citizen of the country to be even in office. So I don't see how any Illegal Alien would become president. But just in case it does happen! I have an idea! How about they tell the Mexican president to quit sitting on his butt and help ever single Mexican out! Yah there's a thought! Actually you have to be born in the United states.....so The Governator from Cali isn't gonna be Prez...
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Post by mike1921 on Dec 7, 2007 6:56:33 GMT -5
That sucks. What?? I didn't even give you a reason to have the impression that I believe every immigrant or foreign person is a terrorist.
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