Your Point of View on Miracles

[Victim ~*of *~Circumstances]

o8jedi said:

There is one hypothesis that may rationally explain stigmata. Psychologists speculate that the wounds are psychosomatic, or caused by the sheer power of the mind. It's similar to how one can worry themselves sick or cause themselves to vomit by thinking about a disgusting food. Christian stigmata, they say, are so prevalent in Catholocism because of the powerful and, in many ways, disturbing iconography that is present in many cathedrals. Several stained glass windows will depict Christ's last days and the intense suffering He went through. Then, there's the giant crucifix on the wall behind the altar, ever present and almost demanding the attention of the parishioners. Because of the great desire to be like Christ that many stigmatic followers have and the painful iconography that surrounds them, the mind begins to associate these wounds with being like Christ. Eventually, just because of the mind's power, blood vessels burst in strategic locations and blood begins to ooze from the skin. Stigmata. Due to the lack of olfactory sensory references, the smell may not be as overpowering as long-bleeding wounds normally have. This may or may not be the explanation, but it is a somewhat plausible one.

Ah, I've seen a National Geographic documentary that has this exact explanation. I must say it is quite plausible. More so there was a chemical however I can't remember the name that they dabbed onto the locations like their palms that wasn't toxic but looked like alcohol. They thought about the iconography and Jesus suffering and after a minute or so their hands started to bleed.

The only problem with Stigmata is that nobody has ever taped/shot a video of someone's hand going from perfectly normal to slowly becoming am open wound. Then there's the location of the wounds themselves. Nobody seems to be completely sure where the wounds are located. That right there is fishy considering if they appear in so many places I would begin to doubt it was God sent.

God is supposed to be all knowing right? I doubt he would forget where the location of those wounds are.

On the note about the rain. If that's the case I'll just have to say: Wow, that's so cool! I wish i could've seen that!

Skeptic that I am I have never witnessed a miracle first hand.

[harmonyhorsegrl]

Yeah. I prayed to God for the ability to play this part in a really important concert that I wasn't quite ready for, and all the sudden, my fingers were flying! I was doning it perfect! It was so cool! @.@

And recent studies have shown that if the nails were driven in the palms of the hand, the hand would tear. It had to be in the wrist.

[Sheogorath]

I know I've already sounded off, and pretty much made final about what I wanted to say on the subject, but I have something else I want to say. I feel that a "miracle" need not be of divine or diabolical origin. Consider this: Life. Your life, my life, animals, plants. Life. Wouldn't you agree that one planet out of eight or nine we know of and possibly millions more besides, that only that one is capable of supporting life is pretty miraculous? And wouldn't you also agree that in the entire multiverse, that fact life exists at all is pretty miraculous? Personally, though I'm a non-practicing Christian, I buy into evolution over creation, and even with intelligent beings evolving from single celled organisms over the course of millions of years, the fact that we're even here to discuss it is pretty miraculous if you ask me.

[That Kid Neo]

I agree with harmonyhorsegrl, because like her, I am also a Christian. I believe there are miracles within the world, but I also believe that the majority of the "miracles" we see today are more long the lines of signs. The sad thing is, alot of what I consider miracles are overshadowed.

For example, conjoined twins seperated at birth, still able to live normal, healthy lives. Or the story of a man trapped 6 feet under a avalanche, is found and rescued. Miracles like these are mentioned, but are not usually considered miracles, because they aren't as "flashy". As for the "science" explains everything argument, I ACTUALLY agree with it, and it makes the most sense. But, in my opinion, to say that things are the way they are, because they just ARE the way they are is a really empty way of thinking. I know it's in human nature to be skeptical, and I know we wouldn't have made it this far (as the human race) without being a little skeptical as well. But to say that God himself isn't involved with EVERYTHING that happens on this globe and universe is amazing. The world we live in is much too delicate, and perfect, and symetrical, and vast to have only been the result of some ultimate science.

No, there was way too much energy, love, detail, and passion put into it all. And while we all stew, and complain; we seem to dismiss God as a factor all together. This universe, and all of us living within it, are just a giant miracle, with all the flash and shine added in for good measure. And God was nice enough to seperate us humans from the animals, and the cheap imitations (Apes) .

The fact that the majority of us here on this forum are untouched by any kind of poverty, or famine is a miracle. The fact that we live in a country that actually votes it's leaders into office is a miracle. Did you ever stop, and just thank God for allowing you to be raised in a safe and loving environment? I wince everytime I think about the large amount of countries that cannot enjoy HALF of the luxieries that we do here. All of the things we had, have, or will have are blessings (little miracles), but we seem to thank "luck" and "good fortune". Not giving God the credit for how the Sun shines, or how the Moon and the sea collabrate, is like not giving a puppeeter credit for the puppet show he displayed. I believe this world could use a dose of blind faith, and belief in the unseen. All religions pratice blind faith, and believe in the unknown or unproven. Call us idiots if you like, I was skeptical a few years back too, but to put it as simple as I can, we need our blind faith. Because wondering through life, only relying on what you can see just reflects a depressing, unrealistic outlook on life. We have faith that we'll wake up tommorrow morning, so why can't we believe that that there is a God? By the way, OUR next hour is not promised. My heart could give out two minutes from now and you would never get this message. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a super optimistic guy, I also take the good and the bad of life. But just like you, I'm a realist, only I have a "glass half full" outlook on realism. Once again, I am entitled to my opinion, and I do apologized to anyone I may have offended.


Also, the reason alot of us Christians seem to completely persuaded by the bible, inspite alot of it's writings being "impossible"; is because of blind faith. If you haven't figured it out yet, nothing is impossible with God, just take a look around.

[Victim ~*of *~Circumstances]

^That right there was very well said and beautiful! Though I disagree with you I'm not going to go on a rant trying to prove you're wrong because I might be wrong as well. We'll never know the truth anyway until we die. *ok that sounded rather morbid but you know what I mean*

(gives you a karma)

But can someone tell me why nobody ever talks about dinosaurs in discussions like this? I mean I see people prove their point all the time with apes but nobody ever mentions dinosaurs. ^_^;

[That Kid Neo]

^Thanks. I'm not trying to baptise anyone, I just felt like I was obligated to back up a fellow christian. At the very least, I hope that non-Christians can better understand where we are coming from. I wouldn't wish it on anybody, but you seem like the type that have to experience something so awful, before you believe.

As for the dinosaurs, maybe the fact that they lived way before the humans did has something to do with us not really including them in these discussions. I use to think God got bored with dinosaurs and decided to start from scratch with us humans. I was young, don't hold it against me.

[Victim ~*of *~Circumstances]

legendn said:

I use to think God got bored with dinosaurs and decided to start from scratch with us humans.

Haha! That made me laugh so hard! I had an idea like that too! Don't even get me started on apes though. When I was little I used to think that if there was a God he got tired of trying to make apes look right so just kept them the way we see now. Then he got like inspiration during his free time and finally got a good design and made people.

[username]

legendn said:

For example, conjoined twins seperated at birth, still able to live normal, healthy lives. Or the story of a man trapped 6 feet under a avalanche, is found and rescued. Miracles like these are mentioned, but are not usually considered miracles, because they aren't as "flashy".

That's because they aren't miracles. It's a guy who survives an avalanche. Some people die in avalanches, a few people survive. That's just the way it works. If I have a hat with 6 red balls and 1 green ball, it's not a miracle when i pluck out the green ball. It's just lucky.

But for whatever reason people always seem to think luck + lives saved = OMG A MIRACLE ITZ GOD

legendn said:

But, in my opinion, to say that things are the way they are, because they just ARE the way they are is a really empty way of thinking.

Empty or not, that's what life is. You can't just make up aspects of the universe because it makes it seem "nicer."

Besides, atheists can cope with the "emptiness" of the universe, and find beauty in it without the aid of some supernatural crap.

[That Kid Neo]

^Although your comparing surviving an avalanche to picking a marble out of a pile is a poor one at best, I see your point. I still don't see your reasoning. How is someone surviving overwhleming odds not a miracle? Yes, avalanches happen all the time, and yes, people do survive them all the time. But Is there some rule about how there isn't allowed to be more than one miracle? Is your value of human life really so low? I really hope it isn't.

Finally, life is a tough going. But, excuse me for saying, who are you to tell me what I can or cannot do? You have the right to believe in a world without God or purpose, why can't I believe in a God that runs the Universe like a well-oiled machine? No offense, like I said, but I'd appreciate it if you'd at LEAST respect my oppinion.

[username]

legendn said:

^Although your comparing surviving an avalanche to picking a marble out of a pile is a poor one at best, I see your point. I still don't see your reasoning. How is someone surviving overwhleming odds not a miracle? Yes, avalanches happen all the time, and yes, people do survive them all the time. But Is there some rule about how there isn't allowed to be more than one miracle? Is your value of human life really so low? I really hope it isn't.

No it isn't. People always seem to clump together atheism and stupid nihilist philosophies.

Pulling a marble out of a hat is not a poor analogy.
The point I'm making is that in this avalanche, even if it is unlikely that the person might survive, that doesn't make it a miracle. Just like how it's unlikely that I would pick the green marble from the hat.

Would you consider pulling the unlikely marble from a hat a miracle? I doubt it. You would consider that lucky.
But when luck saves lives, people consider it a miracle, when really it's no different.

legendn said:

Finally, life is a tough going. But, excuse me for saying, who are you to tell me what I can or cannot do? You have the right to believe in a world without God or purpose, why can't I believe in a God that runs the Universe like a well-oiled machine? No offense, like I said, but I'd appreciate it if you'd at LEAST respect my oppinion.

I never said you couldn't believe what you do, nor did I claim to not respect those beliefs. Besides, your the one who called my beliefs empty.

[That Kid Neo]

Your still comparing marbles to human lives, no matter how you look at it. One results in either the preserving or loss of life. I dunno if you've lost something dear to you, such as a brother or sister, but I guaruantee those families of soldiers in Iraq probably choose to believe in something besides luck. And know, I wouldn't call pulling the marble from the hat lucky. That's more along the lines of probability, because there STILL is a chance you could pull the green marble. Anyway, that's where blind faith comes in. And blind faith is SO strong, even in a failing cause. Even if there turns out to be no God, and I die thinking there is, what harm is there in that. Pain and suffering cannot always be overlooked as "just life" or "simply how it is", that sort of thinking is emotionless, and you know this.
And I recant my previous statement, calling your beliefs empty. But only because I'm not entirely sure what it is you believe in. You come off as this emotionless robot. Tell me this my friend, what do you have faith in? Miracles are happening all around you, yet you leave it all to luck?
(BTW, nice little disscussion with you)

And what do you call a newborn? Is that child not a miracle? You seem to take alot in life for granted.

[Atmos]

"Miracle" is a word of perspective.

You can't say as fact that "The object is red" as "The event is a miracle."

From my understanding people view a miracle as a spontaneous outcome of low probability associated with the supernatural.

More specifically a miracle is a spontaneous outcome of low probability associated with the supernatural that benefits that specific individual or group.

For example one person a miracle is surviving a terrible car accident, which is an outcome of low probability benefiting the individual. What about someone that passes a test that they didn't study for? Is that a miracle? Are they suppose to serve as gifts?...second chances?...lessons?

If the miracle benefits one, should it benefit all, in other words is it supposed to be positive for everyone that it effects. For example what if the sole survivor of the terrible car accident was the drunk driver who caused it? Is it still a miracle. Would it be considered a miracle for him that he just ends up in jail? Even if he manages to learn from his mistakes (considering that as the miracle) did it really "have to" happen at the cost of innocent lives. Do miracles come with a cost? These are all just questions throwing at the concpet of miracles.

BTW - even using the word luck brings up the existence of some type of force out there randomly bringing people good fortune.

The idea of miracles is no more solid than a philosophy, whether one associates it with religion or secular luck. It's all based on a point of view - in other words it's not exactly the most debatable topic. >_>

As for my point of view - I conservatively stick with the definition of a miracle as a wonder or marvel (whether positive or negative). So that means that I just consider "everything existing and happening" as just one big miracle. But miracles, as in "spontaneous outcomes of low probability that have benefited me" were never really the source or fuel of my personal religious faith.

[username]

legendn said:

Your still comparing marbles to human lives, no matter how you look at it. One results in either the preserving or loss of life. I dunno if you've lost something dear to you, such as a brother or sister, but I guaruantee those families of soldiers in Iraq probably choose to believe in something besides luck. And know, I wouldn't call pulling the marble from the hat lucky. That's more along the lines of probability, because there STILL is a chance you could pull the green marble.

I'm not talking about the value of human life. I'm just talking about how annoying it is that people chalk up plain old probability to God whenever it's favorable.

legendn said:

And what do you call a newborn? Is that child not a miracle? You seem to take alot in life for granted.

Maybe not a baby, but more developed human being is one of the closer things there are to "miracles" (for a lack of a better word)

Babies are all so similar, but once a person has accomplished things and developed into their own unique and individual self, one can appreciate the improbability of their existence. The fact that you or I exist in the manner we do is incredibly unlikely. I wouldn't call it an act of God, but it is something of a secular miracle.

On the other hand, the way people view babies as miracles is little more than a way of saying "awwwwwww."

[That Kid Neo]

While I disagree with your worldly views, I respect them. But I was always taught that everything and everyone has a purpose. In my religion, our lives have been pre-determined. So every action, thought, notion, or idea that we think or act on is what God had intended all along. The fact that you still seem to take things for granted is evident, I'm tired of stressing my concern. I believe the entire birthing process is a miracle, and it would be crazy to assume everytime a proud mother and father utter "miracle", their looking to expand on how cute it is. Please take into consideration the deaths that occur as a result of births.


While I see how the preception of a miracle can be different, belief in luck would almost take more blind faith from me then the belief in miracles. But again, we were all brought up different, and there will always be differences among friends and colleagues.

[Victim ~*of *~Circumstances]

legendn said:

While I disagree with your worldly views, I respect them. But I was always taught that everything and everyone has a purpose. In my religion, our lives have been pre-determined. So every action, thought, notion, or idea that we think or act on is what God had intended all along.

^That's a pretty double edged sword right there. At this moment and time I actually feel sorry for Hitler if our life was pre-determined like that. Anyway, on the topic of miracles I'll point to Littlewood's Law:

Littlewood's Law states that individuals can expect a miracle to happen to them at the rate of about one per month.

Littlewood's law, making certain suppositions, is explained as follows: a miracle is defined as an exceptional event of special significance occurring at a frequency of one in a million; during the hours in which a human is awake and alert, a human will experience one thing per second (for instance, seeing the computer screen, the keyboard, the mouse, the article, etc.);

additionally, a human is alert for about eight hours per day; and as a result, a human will, in 35 days, have experienced, under these suppositions, 1,008,000 things. Accepting this definition of a miracle, one can be expected to observe one miraculous occurrence within the passing of every 35 consecutive days -- and therefore, according to this reasoning, seemingly miraculous events are actually commonplace.

In this case as well as from personal experience I would consider passing a test a miracle if I didn't study for it. As well as actually waking up early enough to have breakfast.