Sakura
FN Sokka
Sakura. Just Sakura.
Posts: 1,744
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Post by Sakura on Jan 30, 2008 20:11:18 GMT -5
YAY! 'Finally got 'round to making this thread! What is YOUR viewpoint on the miracles that happen all around us? I especially want to know the views of the Athieists, because they don't believe in God, y'know? ((Sorry if I'm offending you right there...)) Here's some miracles for the talkin': The Sun's Dance:As some may know, at Fatima in the 1900s ((?)) an extordinary event happened: The sun danced around in the sky, which was, by the word of three kids, a miracle form Jesus' mother Mary. From what I've heard, I think there were QUITE a lot of people there. Were all these hundreds of people lying? Your thoughts. ((Link: www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/scripts/fatima.html )) The Crying of Mary:Statues of the Virgin Mary, on occasion, have cried tears and even blood in front of witnesses. I find this kinda creepy, yet MAYBE it's a sign at how disappointed Mary is that her "children" are sinning against her God so much. Do you think it's a hoax? Your thoughts. ((Link: www.crystalinks.com/weepingstatues.html )) St. Juan's Cloak:What do you think of his cloak, so perfectly preserved, bearing a beautiful picture of Mary? Thoughts.
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o8jedi
Jet
Please, call me "o8"
Posts: 364
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Post by o8jedi on Jan 30, 2008 20:42:00 GMT -5
There are two types of miracles: That which the Divine defies all physics and logic to create an extraordinary event and that which the Divine guides one to a point in the universe through the laws of the universe. More often than not, the latter variety is the most common. As for the former, my position is the same as the Catholic Church: Present us with the evidence (testimony and physical data) and allow us to consider the possibility that it isn't one.
For Fatima, I can't say. There is a possibility that it could be a mass hallucination, however I find that unlikely. My impression is that it may very well be genuine.
For weeping statues and other phenomenon with religious icons, I'm more skeptical. I'm confident that they are either coincidences (condensation leaving reddish deposits as they run down the face of the statue) or hoaxes of some sort (either planting the streaks or having the icons contain some small plumbing. Unfortunately, the only way to prove or disprove this is to destroy the statues.
And then we come to the image of Our Lady of Guadalupe. It's a nice story, more than anything. However, it won't yield anything unless tests are conducted on it, not unlike the Shroud of Turin.
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Sakura
FN Sokka
Sakura. Just Sakura.
Posts: 1,744
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Post by Sakura on Jan 30, 2008 22:25:31 GMT -5
A mass hallucanation that appears to at LEAST a 100,000 people? It's like the probability of a million to one.
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Post by Grimmjow of the Funk on Jan 30, 2008 22:28:36 GMT -5
there is no god there is only me. jk if there is a god he certainly doesn't involve himself in this world in my opinion its a hallucination of the sky in fatima the other ones i do not believe until i see there are cameras around now so why no evidence, call me a cynic but that is my opninion.
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Post by Blind Bandit on Jan 31, 2008 8:52:17 GMT -5
This topic is rather subjective in nature and I don't think this fits in CT as CT is meant for debate and while I think this topic can be debated its a rather personal topic and one that has no wrong or right answer and is hard to back up objectively.
So I moving this to the OGB for now.
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Rogue-Angel
Avatar Yangchen
The guy nobody notices until he's gone.
Posts: 1,553
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Post by Rogue-Angel on Jan 31, 2008 9:19:37 GMT -5
Almost all BIBLICAL miracles have been waiylaid by means of science, tracking down natural events in those days. I can certainly imagine that our ancestors in those days found them miraculous, but I believe most of them were just circumstances coinciding. As for miracles on a biblical basis - such as mentioned above - I am sceptical. I don't rule out the possibility that they MAY be genuine, but quite often people just want to see stuff. As to personal miracles; I can certainly understand why people see them as such, but in the end they either just got lucky, or made the effort on their own. 'god's guidance' or somesuch is often filled in where sudden insights or coincidental results appear.
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Sakura
FN Sokka
Sakura. Just Sakura.
Posts: 1,744
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Post by Sakura on Feb 4, 2008 19:25:02 GMT -5
there is no god there is only me. jk if there is a god he certainly doesn't involve himself in this world in my opinion its a hallucination of the sky in fatima the other ones i do not believe until i see there are cameras around now so why no evidence, call me a cynic but that is my opninion. I repeat: AROUND 100,100 PEOPLE ALL HALLUCINATED AT THE SAME TIME?
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Post by Grimmjow of the Funk on Feb 4, 2008 21:04:26 GMT -5
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO YELL. i don't care if that many people saw it where is the evidence? nada so i do not care about silly miracles now the giants beating the patriots that is a mircale.
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Sakura
FN Sokka
Sakura. Just Sakura.
Posts: 1,744
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Post by Sakura on Feb 5, 2008 20:54:54 GMT -5
Um... we really shouldn't be fihting in this thread. I know I used the SHIFT key, but I was trying to get my point across.
There is evidence... it wasn't like 10,000 years ago...There may still be some people alive who saw it...Plus there are many newspaper clippings
I don't really care about football. Like, AT ALL. I probably wouldn't care that much if the Patriots win every single game ever.
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Post by mikael on Feb 5, 2008 22:23:55 GMT -5
Step One: Move this to debate forum. Step Two: Show that there is no way of proving miracles. Step Three: Show that, because they cannot be proven, they by definition do not exist. Step Four: Leave thread.
I shouldn't be able to sum it up this easily, but in all of human history, there is always a logical explanation for everything. Just because we can't explain it doesn't make it a miracle.
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Post by harmonyhorsegrl on Mar 14, 2008 21:55:48 GMT -5
okay, i havent read all the posts, but i will still say something
GOD is the source of all miracles. The way I am positive of this is that the Bible says that Jesus/God/Holy Spirit has power over Death, Disease, Nature, and Evil & Satan. The Bible is the complete and utter truth. It has to be the only thing in this corrupted world that is complete and entirely true. Jesus performed many miracles, and if you open a Bible, you can see that the miracles He performed are unexplainable by mortals. He even performed the greatest miracle of all. He raised himself from the dead; He paid with His own life for us. In my opinion, that is pretty freakin miraculous.
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Sheogorath
Kyoshi Azula
Lord of the Never-There
Yeah, an Avatard and a brony. Got a problem with that?
Posts: 2,223
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Post by Sheogorath on Mar 15, 2008 2:33:19 GMT -5
I dunno, but I feel the word "miracle", much like "chronicle", is thrown out there way too much. Just because the sun appears to move erratically about the sky one day or statues are known to periodically shed tears or blood, does that make it a miracle?
I say no. I say that a miracle is that which the Bible claims Jesus did, for example, turning the water to wine, or having two loaves of bread and one fish, and suddenly having enough to feed everybody in the group (and a large group it was, the Bible says there were more than 40 people) and still be able to fill multiple baskets with the ends of many loaves of bread at the end of the meal, or, best example period, raising the dead just by standing outside their crypt and telling them to get up. That is a miracle, in my opinion.
I can't prove that the sun moving erratically is a naturally occurring phenomenon, but at the same time, I can't prove it's not, either, but without video, like the crying statues, there's no way to prove that the sun did, indeed, move as the spectators claimed. Maybe it was just a mass delusion, or maybe the sun really did move as they claimed. It's likely that everyone who saw it is either dead or senile by now, so there's practically no way of knowing for sure.
As for the statues of Mary, there might be something to this one. I reiterate, I feel the word "miracle" is used too readily, but I watched on TV some years ago that a crew went to a church and recorded a statue begin to cry what appeared to be blood. A sample was taken and sent for analysis, and the results came back that it was, indeed, human blood. Now, the significance of this, I may never know, but who am I to say to true believers that it's happening but it's not a sign from God? For all I know, it is a sign from God, but at the same time, for all I know, while it appears to happen frequently, it's just an anomaly.
And to cover the last piece of presented alleged evidence, I've never heard of that one, so I can't say anything about it other than unless said cloak was tailored in a certain way and the image was intentional, then it's just like the grilled cheese sandwich that wound up bearing the image of the Virgin Mary, or the heart shaped potato, or Abraham Lincoln showing up in the way a dirty sock fell on the floor, or the continental United States showing up in the way leftover macaroni and cheese is spooned onto a plate. It's just a coincidence.
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Post by harmonyhorsegrl on Mar 15, 2008 11:55:37 GMT -5
yes. i agree with NErull halfway. the Virgin Mary crying tears of blood is definetly not of Earthly cause. But, I don't think that "miracle" is quite the word I would use. I suppose I would use, "GOdly Phenomenon". Perhaps God is tryign to tell us something. PErhaps a woman who has gone to heaven, and has numerous statues of her, is crying because this world is so corrupt. Perhaps it's like a symbol of God weeping for his lost children. Yes, maybe that's it. But there really is no way of knowing unless you ask Him personally. He may not answer, but we must trust that waht He did had a reason.
Now, the sun moving erractically. I don't know much about this, but I would guess that it wasn't somehting sent from God. Now, I know that God controls everything in the universe for His purpose, but I'm not quite sure of my opinion of this.
My teacher toldd us about htis church that they went to where they were singing praise and worship about living water flowing down. It beganto rain inside the church! Immediately they sent a janitor to see if it was raining outside. It wasn't. He climbed atop the roof, and found no hole. He went back inside to report his finding of nothing, and found that it was still raining. GOd had made it rain inside a church!! How cool is that?! He literally let living water flow down amoung his children!
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girlunderglass
Metalbending Cop
Runs With Scissors
Just STFU Already.
Posts: 5,014
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Post by girlunderglass on Mar 15, 2008 18:14:52 GMT -5
I feel this does belong in CT, where it'll get more replies.
The moving van is boarding...
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Post by harmonyhorsegrl on Mar 16, 2008 16:44:32 GMT -5
*looks around* whoooooa duude...like, where are weh?? *hippie voice*
This is considered Spam. Please do not post in this thread unless you have something meaningful to contribute to the debate.
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