historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Dec 23, 2006 14:26:35 GMT -5
Here's my tounge in check response of a few extreme leftists who spend all there time hating Bush, to an Iraq pullout: Oh my, *politically incorrect* bush! How could you pull the troops out of Iraq? Now they all died, for nothing! That was so foolish of you! Now the country could fall to terrorists We should have stayed!I know, not all of you are just Bush-Bashers but still... Oh, and guys: this is the issue with dividing Iraq into two states: the Kurds in the north will go: Hey, wer want a state too, and rebel. Then the Kurds in Turkey will join the fight for Kurdistan. The Sunnis will be fighting the Shiites and Kurds. The Iranians will attack Sunnistate, while Turkey joins in on fighting the Shiites and Iran due to the Kurd fight. Saudi Arabia jumps in for the Sunnis and try and kill Shiastate. Lebanon will hop on too and now all of the Middle East (except Israel) are killing each other. Israel is sitting back and takjing snapshots of the action.
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Post by demonofthewest on Dec 25, 2006 16:54:14 GMT -5
I fail to see how the troops are really going to accomplish anything if we keep them there. America isn't an invincible nation, and this war has taken a heavy toll on our morale and troop count. How many more years are we supposed to put up with this before we're allowed to call it quits?
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Dec 26, 2006 9:05:53 GMT -5
I fail to see how the troops are really going to accomplish anything if we keep them there. America isn't an invincible nation, and this war has taken a heavy toll on our morale and troop count. How many more years are we supposed to put up with this before we're allowed to call it quits? Comparitevely, the deaths aren't that high: Revolutionary War: 8,000 in action War of 1812: 7,800 Mexican American War: 13,000 Civil War: North 120,000 in action, south: 95,000 in action Spanish American War: 385 World War I: 126,000 World War II: 407,000 Korea: 34,000 Vietnam: 47,000 Gulf War: 150 Afghanistan: 453 (coalition TOTAL) Iraq: 2,975 DON'T bring in civilians. There were a bunch of civ. deaths that I can go into.
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Post by CountessRachel on Dec 26, 2006 17:19:51 GMT -5
What I really want to know is what exactly would mark the end of the war? What should Iraq look like in order for us to decide, "Okay, we're done here." ?
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Dec 26, 2006 18:00:03 GMT -5
No terrorists blowing themselves up every 12 and 1/2 seconds.
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Bleda
Kyoshi Mai
Wise Kataang/Soph Elite
Time defies logic thus it cannot exist.
Posts: 2,362
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Post by Bleda on Dec 28, 2006 11:37:32 GMT -5
THe things will go nasty if Kurds try to rebel and Turkey (my country) invades to stop it, as a Free Kurd nation would certainly harass our southern borders as well as increasing the terrorism in that area. Things will go even nastier when sunnis and shiites start a civil war thus leaving US troops under cross fire
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Dec 28, 2006 16:30:12 GMT -5
Well, you should be fine unless you live in the south or Kurdish
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Post by demonofthewest on Dec 28, 2006 16:46:31 GMT -5
I realize that the deaths are comparitively low to other wars, historyman. However, you should realize that the war we're fighting is on a much smaller scale with a much less competent enemy. There's no point in comparing it to those other wars, as we're not fighting any actual army.
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Post by Consonant*** on Dec 29, 2006 1:43:01 GMT -5
I realize that the deaths are comparitively low to other wars, historyman. However, you should realize that the war we're fighting is on a much smaller scale with a much less competent enemy. There's no point in comparing it to those other wars, as we're not fighting any actual army. It is an army, this is just the new face of this war. Urban Terrorism. This isn't a "war", per se. Think of it this way, Iraq is a house on an extremely steep hill/mountainside/what have you. Saddam's regime was the wood holding the house from imminent collapse. The wood was beginning to rot, and once it fell, it would take the whole house down with it. America came in, surrounding the wood with steel, and the wood disappeared. However, now, America needs cement (Placed in by the Iraqi people, the occupants of the house) to fill in the middle of the steel where the wood used to be (Not actually used in construction, but just bear with me). The cement isn't coming. It is trickling down, and now the contractors, the people who put in the steel, need the cement to fill up. But the cement just won't come. this wouldn't be a problem, except there is something else. Rain. Rain comes in and rusts some of the metal. The contractors cannot keep their metal in there forever (Or, that's what they think), and they tell the owners of the house this. The owners insist it is coming along as fast as it can, but, of course, it isn't. So, what do the contractors do? Do they remove their steel, causing the house to collapse? No, of course not, all the neighbors and family will see them as horrible people for that. Do they leave the steel under the house? No, the workers say, this is most of our steel! We cannot allow it to rust! It is too expensive, although we are the most wealthy company in the state! So, what do they do? Scare the owners of the house. Promise to remove the metal within a set amount of time. Tell them that, once they leave, s**t hits the fan. They will work to put more concrete in. They will work for their lives (quite literally). But of course, this won't work. Solution? Stay there, suck it up, wait till the concrete's full. There's nothing else we can do. We will have to sacrifice thousands of willing Americans, or millions of innocent men, women and children.
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historyman12
Fugitive Iroh
IS IT JULY 14TH YET?
Posts: 4,822
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Post by historyman12 on Dec 29, 2006 11:43:05 GMT -5
nice post.
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Bleda
Kyoshi Mai
Wise Kataang/Soph Elite
Time defies logic thus it cannot exist.
Posts: 2,362
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Post by Bleda on Dec 29, 2006 11:44:46 GMT -5
Well, you should be fine unless you live in the south or Kurdish if it happens US his lose it's only support in middle east, i am not counting they will lose 20 years of "Anti-Urban Terrorism" experience. On my countries hand, we have already gave them about 50.000 civilians and soldiers we do not need to give anot her 50.000 to make them understand they cannot terrorize or invade our land.
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Post by demonofthewest on Dec 29, 2006 23:16:54 GMT -5
What a touching metaphor. Unfortunately, you seem to be missing the point. We can't stay in Iraq forever. We can't sacrifice thousands and thousands and thousands of troops because of one man's mistake. You can call it cutting and running. I call it cutting our losses so that we have enough resources for REAL threats. Tell me, Captain Klepto, how many more years must we stay in Iraq before we realize we aren't going to get anything accomplished? Because, while it's quite generous of you to risk your own life in this war, I think it's inconsiderate of you to sacrifice the lives of others, especially if they don't believe in the war.
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Post by Kylie on Dec 30, 2006 2:02:43 GMT -5
The Iraqi's just hung Saddam. I knew it was coming, but it's still shocking that it's over, and he's really gone.
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Post by Consonant*** on Dec 30, 2006 2:06:19 GMT -5
What a touching metaphor. Unfortunately, you seem to be missing the point. We can't stay in Iraq forever. We can't sacrifice thousands and thousands and thousands of troops because of one man's mistake. You can call it cutting and running. I call it cutting our losses so that we have enough resources for REAL threats. Tell me, Captain Klepto, how many more years must we stay in Iraq before we realize we aren't going to get anything accomplished? Because, while it's quite generous of you to risk your own life in this war, I think it's inconsiderate of you to sacrifice the lives of others, especially if they don't believe in the war. That's what I'm saying, at the rate we are at now, it will take decades, and while that is STILL preferable to leaving, there is a better solution. Getting the Iraqis to step up and make their own decisions. They want us to baby them, they want us to sit there and do everything for them. We can't. We have to get them to do things for themselves. As for that, I see three options. 1. The ONLY Nonviolent approach, paying them. Giving them LOADS to get good programs running. 2. Scaring them. Causing disturbances. Not rape, murder, things like that, but busting into houses in the middle of the night, stuff like that. Make them WANT us to leave. Then, pull out of an area of importance. Maybe the area a few parliament members live in. One/some get killed, they realizine they need troops, they step up. Not my favorite choice, either. 3. Threatening them. Give a withdrawal date, but with no intentions of leaving. Scare them nationally. The terrorists will also fall back and plan for an offensive that won't come. Probably most viable option. Btw, DotW, you say "cutting our losses so that we have enough resources for REAL threats" as if Iraq has no significance, isn't a threat. This IS a real threat. We leave, they come with us. There is no turning back now, we either win, or we lose.
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Post by demonofthewest on Dec 30, 2006 20:09:32 GMT -5
Who's coming with us? The terrorists? The terrorists were around long before we ever invaded Iraq. In fact, the terrorists that bombed us had nothing to do with Iraq. And btw, the majority of Iraqis want us out of the country. So if we threaten them by saying, "Hey, step up, or we're leaving," exactly how are we going to make them want us to stay?
I love how you talk about "babying" the Iraqis. "Hey man, just because we bombed the living crap out of you, destroyed billions in infrastructure, sparked a civil war, and plunged your entire country into chaos doesn't mean we have to baby you!" Right. Go over to Iraq and tell all the Iraqis that after what we've done to their country, that we're sick of babying them. I'm sure they'll just love that.
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