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Post by lunauc on Feb 2, 2007 15:43:48 GMT -5
So you're saying that we should accept whatever the shows gives us, even if that isn't in accordance with what we want to see? Wouldn't that work both ways, you know, you accepting that it may in fact be the intent of the authors to turn kiddy relationships into epic ones, as much as we have to accept that this might not be the case and things could still go either way... ? ;D Exactly. ;D No matter how much we fans may dispute and question and bark, "This is meant to be!" or "That could never happen!" The fact is we don't write the show, and can't make those decisions in the end. That's what fanfiction is for.  Undying transcendal love....? Are you talking about Iroh and his lost son Lu Ten? Yes. That is a touching aspect that I don't think will change next season. I agree. |
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Post by spook on Feb 2, 2007 15:56:33 GMT -5
Undying transcendal love....? Are you talking about Iroh and his lost son Lu Ten? Yes. That is a touching aspect that I don't think will change next season. I agree. Heh, I totally agree... Seriously, I took the whole love reincarnating and love vs power symbolism as quite epic, but I guess that's just personal interpretation. |
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Post by Paraiba Ocean on Feb 2, 2007 16:02:25 GMT -5
I think you should clarify as you mean "seriously". The way it's conveyed sounds quite rude as "this ship is a joke". You should probably elaborate on it and say something like "I don't take this ship as a threat to Kataang".  Oh, I'm sorry! I really don't mean to be rude. I just don't think Zutara is really going anywhere. And I don't really like the ship, but I didn't mean to be rude. I just don't really think Zuko and Katara have anything they could really share in common. But, hey, you can ship what ever ya like, fine by me! You're fine. I didn't think you were.  That's where I believe they'll leave the show open. I think they'll leave it to the minds of the fans to come up with their own way for the ship to happen, resolving all ends and conflicts, but still leaving it open. |
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Post by lunauc on Feb 2, 2007 16:43:41 GMT -5
Seriously, I took the whole love reincarnating and love vs power symbolism as quite epic, but I guess that's just personal interpretation. The thing is, the show itself is an epic adventure. Unfortunately that often leads the people watching it to turn every aspect of the heroes' journey into an epic, including they're "romance". Just because the characters are going through intense and dramatic times doesn't mean everything about them has to be intense and dramatic. Sometimes friends just stay friends. People who like eachother today might be ticked at eachother tomorrow. Someone who has always gotten on your nerves might turn out to be a better friend than you ever though. And sometimes kids just have crushes. Keeping things in perspective these characters might be looking down the barrel of destiny, with an all out war fast approaching and death chasing at their heels, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still children; unsure, scared, wanton, worried, and sometimes angry and jealous. Just because they are heroes in an epic story, doesn't disqualify them from being fully emotional human beings. Though sometimes writers choose to glance over those "messy bits". I'll give Mike and Bryan some credit though, and watch for now, hoping for something interesting, regardless of any ships, or no ships coming about. |
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Post by spook on Feb 2, 2007 18:11:14 GMT -5
The thing is, the show itself is an epic adventure. Unfortunately that often leads the people watching it to turn every aspect of the heroes' journey into an epic, including they're "romance". Just because the characters are going through intense and dramatic times doesn't mean everything about them has to be intense and dramatic. Sometimes friends just stay friends. People who like eachother today might be ticked at eachother tomorrow. Someone who has always gotten on your nerves might turn out to be a better friend than you ever though. And sometimes kids just have crushes. Keeping things in perspective these characters might be looking down the barrel of destiny, with an all out war fast approaching and death chasing at their heels, but that doesn't change the fact that they are still children; unsure, scared, wanton, worried, and sometimes angry and jealous. Just because they are heroes in an epic story, doesn't disqualify them from being fully emotional human beings. Though sometimes writers choose to glance over those "messy bits". I'll give Mike and Bryan some credit though, and watch for now, hoping for something interesting, regardless of any ships, or no ships coming about. And I don't disagree. Like I said, a matter of personal interpretation. When I first saw the finale and observed Katara and Aang's interaction, I just got the feeling I was looking at something epic. Not just because they're a potential romantic couple, but just because of the interaction as a whole. Especially that last scene on Appa's back, with Aang waking up in Katara's arms a second time, really touched me. If you didn't feel the same about it, well, opinions differ. |
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Post by lunauc on Feb 2, 2007 19:07:45 GMT -5
And I don't disagree. Like I said, a matter of personal interpretation. When I first saw the finale and observed Katara and Aang's interaction, I just got the feeling I was looking at something epic. Not just because they're a potential romantic couple, but just because of the interaction as a whole. Especially that last scene on Appa's back, with Aang waking up in Katara's arms a second time, really touched me. If you didn't feel the same about it, well, opinions differ. I know. I just like to rant whenever an opportunity presents itself. ;D You do bring up an interesting point by accident though. Personal Perspectives vs. cold logic; it effects more than how we view the action, if a story is well written, it also effects how the characters interpret their own issues. For instance, outside viewers like us may be able to look at Zuko's actions and want to smack him upside the head, tell him, "You're supposed to be a good guy!" and expect it to easily fall in line because that's how these stories are supposed to go. But instead, he makes one selfish decision after another because of his own personal view that honor is nothing if you don't seize it with your own hands. The same can be said for most all of the characters on the show. Not that they all want to seize honor, but they are all guided by their own perception rather than being able to step back and look at the situation as a whole. There are exceptions, mostly in the elder characters, Iroh, Pathik, Roku, Bumi. Experience and wisdom teaches people to step back from a situation you are too close to and examine it carefully to make the right decision. The children on the show though, From Zuko down to Aang are all still percieving the world from their self-centered focus. However, perspectives change. The same way Zuko saw an opening to aid his sister in capturing Aang to get back onto their father's "good side" in the finale, come next season he may be faced with slaughtering innocent earth citizens or executing Uncle Iroh or something, and decide whatever he was planning is not worth it. Heck, even his deranged sister might find their mother still alive or something and have a life changing epiphany. Who knows? Perpectives can be changed though, and with it, your view of the world. Before anyone even starts to argue that Aang is above this because, he tried to open his chakras... no. The last step was to "let go"; step back away from your emotion driven views and see things as truths and falsehoods. Not only did he not make that step, he broke off from his training because his personal perception drifted back toward Katara. He did not hesitate a second in consideration of the situation, what he would do, or how he would make up for the resealing of his chakra. And when he tried to "let go" in the cave, it was not because he carefully examined the situation and decided it was the right thing to do. He was afraid that they would die, so he tried to call in his trump card. If anything he's lead by his self-centered obsessions only a little less than Zuko, which is why they make such a nice dichotomy. Aaahhh... I love a good rant. |
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yiceman
Bosco 
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 3, 2007 4:12:10 GMT -5
Quite the point I was trying to make in another topic. Aang went into the avatar state to save Katara's life, thus he attempted to open the chakra for the false reasons. He wasn't seeking internal enlightenment and freedom of thought and reason, he was seeking a way to save his worldy attachment's life.
I'd make a list of my own opinions on ships, but I pretty much already did that in the "Which ship will set sail?" topic.
And lunauc, great post. Only the second time I've ever felt compelled to karma someone.
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Post by spook on Feb 3, 2007 5:53:45 GMT -5
Before anyone even starts to argue that Aang is above this because, he tried to open his chakras... no. The last step was to "let go"; step back away from your emotion driven views and see things as truths and falsehoods. Not only did he not make that step, he broke off from his training because his personal perception drifted back toward Katara. He did not hesitate a second in consideration of the situation, what he would do, or how he would make up for the resealing of his chakra. And when he tried to "let go" in the cave, it was not because he carefully examined the situation and decided it was the right thing to do. He was afraid that they would die, so he tried to call in his trump card. If anything he's lead by his self-centered obsessions only a little less than Zuko, which is why they make such a nice dichotomy. Oh yes, I'm not denying Aang let's his obsessions cloud his mind, which was the case in the finale, but I don't think his final choice was yet another example of Aang's selfishness. Or perhaps it was, but I don't think it was the point the creators were trying to get across. The finale was all about decisions and dilemma's, and Aang's dilemma was the choice between love and power. At start he chooses love, a selfish choice, without thinking of the potential consequences. But after a little persuasion, he saw that giving into power was the only thing he could do, so he did it. I don't think "why" or "how" he did is important, the only thing that counts is that he did it and he would have mastered the Avatar State if it hadn't been for Azula's sneak attack. It was the dynamic between the different choices that was so interesting. First Aang chooses love, then power, then he ends up with love again. And I don't think this was because Aang did it wrong, or because the creators in a pretty lame attempt tried to stall his choice, but because he was never supposed to end up with power in the first place. Iroh has always been the mouthpiece for the creators to give the audience basic, yet important ethical lessons. All of the council he has given so far makes sense. Which is why I think that the very essence of the finale was to tell us that giving into raw power isn't going to magically make your problems disappear. If Iroh's monologue doesn't prove this, then the rather ironic scene where Aang gets killed in the Avatar State, after thinking it would magically solve all of his and Katara's problems, does. An opinion not backed by canonical evidence. You don't clear Chakras for reasons. This isn't the case in our world, nor has it been confirmed in any way in the Avatarverse, so I doubt this is true. He could be thinking about a turkey sandwich, as long as he's able to clear his Chakras this doesn't mean diddly doo. |
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Post by lunauc on Feb 3, 2007 12:27:02 GMT -5
Oh yes, I'm not denying Aang let's his obsessions cloud his mind, which was the case in the finale, but I don't think his final choice was yet another example of Aang's selfishness. Or perhaps it was, but I don't think it was the point the creators were trying to get across. The finale was all about decisions and dilemma's, and Aang's dilemma was the choice between love and power. At start he chooses love, a selfish choice, without thinking of the potential consequences. But after a little persuasion, he saw that giving into power was the only thing he could do, so he did it. I don't think "why" or "how" he did is important, the only thing that counts is that he did it and he would have mastered the Avatar State if it hadn't been for Azula's sneak attack. True, I don't know what the intentions of the writers are, so I can only examine this from an outsider's logic. If we're speaking of spiritual matters, which opening the chakras does seem to involve, then WHY you do something is just as, if not more, important than WHAT you do. Say an old man is dying, and he decides to leave his whole fortune to charity. It is a good thing to do. However... consider that he was doing it so that his wife, who he believed was having an affair, would not get get a dime of inheritance. He may be doing good by donating to charity, but spiritually speaking, he's acting out of spite. A man decides to turn in his friend, who trusted him, to collect the bounty on the man's head, placed on him for speaking out against the unfair goverment they live in. He has betrayed his friend for monetary gain. Yet, without that money, could never have paid for the operation his daughter needs to survive. And even if he had not turned his friend in, he would most likely have been tracked down and killed anyway, though not before several other people would have been tortured and perhaps killed as the amoral military police hunted him down. This way only one man dies, and the traitor's innocent daughter may live. He has perhaps done an evil thing in betraying his friend. But did he do it for the right reasons? Now consider Aang. He tried to force himself to let go of his earthly attachments. But he was only doing it to save his earthly attachments. Spiritually he nullifies his own effort. Even if Azula had not sneak attacked him, I doubt he would have succeeded in opening the last chakra. Like I said though, I don't know the intention of the writers. I can only evaluate the situation from an outsider's view. Guru: "To open the earth Chakra, you must face your fears." Aang: "B-but... the turkey sandwich has... MUSTARD!!" Actually reasons are very important in the real world. After all, if you're trying to open you chakras because you think it will make you wise and compotent enough to make yourself rich and powerful, those self-centered views probably won't lead you to enlightenment. Though you may convince yourself that you are enlightened if you do feel "effects", like increased confidence, better focus, yada yada... but that's just basic believeing in yourself(there's no finer ability). I can only presume the same holds true in the Avatarverse. But if it doesn't than I's have to question the writers' grasp on spirituality, thus putting the whole show in question. |
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Post by Awapuhi on Feb 3, 2007 12:45:10 GMT -5
My turn, my turn! Kataang: I don't see it going anywhere. So far, it is pretty much one sided. And with Aang's strong sense of loyalty and his feelings of guilt for the rest of the world, he will open the chakras again which does mean letting go of Katara. *shrug* Zutara:I would love for it to happen. However, it would require several episodes to get it right, and I'm not really thinking the creators would dedicate a lot of airtime to a side romance. But who knows: curveballs happen. Especially in A:TLA Jetterbeeshot: I don't know what this ship is called, but it already happened. Nuff said Maiko: It all depends on Zuko. If he realizes that he was an idiot to run back to Azula and then leaves, leaving Mai there, this ship will tank. If she comes after him, it might not. If Zuko stays, then this ship probably won't tank. Like I said, it all depends on Zuko. Soko: I can't picture Song coming back and Zuko getting together with her just for kicks. Maybe if Zuko decides to live a life of peace with his Uncle in Ba Sing Se after all, then there is room for Soko. Jinko:<<Insert previous decription here>> Sukka: Erm, happened! And if Suki isn't completely dead, which I seriosuly doubt she is, then I have very high expectations for this ship. Ty Lokka: Cute, but Sokka has Suki. And Ty Lee has tried to maim him. (It's kind of like a warm, happy fuzzy version of Zutara) |
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Post by spook on Feb 3, 2007 13:42:49 GMT -5
True, I don't know what the intentions of the writers are, so I can only examine this from an outsider's logic. If we're speaking of spiritual matters, which opening the chakras does seem to involve, then WHY you do something is just as, if not more, important than WHAT you do. Well, then we disagree. Even though I hate using this argument, I still have to point at the fact that we are dealing with a show aimed at children, so it will not go beyond the grasp of the 8-year olds amongst us. Which is why the "why" questions are not going to be elaborated on too much, simply because "why" questions tend to have vague and ambiguous answers, just as philosophy is generally ambiguous and vague. And Avatar has so far been a blatantly direct show, so I can't really see tthem going in that direction. The philosophical and cultural references in Avatar are beautifully done, but there are limits to what they can do. "What" questions on the other hand are direct, simple and easy to understand. "What are you doing?", "I'm eating a banana". No ambiguity, just a simple answer. So that is what Avatar is going to focus on most, like it has done for two seasons already, they're going to focus primarily on what characters are doing, not why they're doing it. Well, unless the motivation is simple and basic, without too much philosophical mumbojumbo surrounding it of course. Kiddies like magic karate, not Buddhist/Hindu philosophy classes. So unless Mike and Bryan want to see their ratings plummit, I doubt we're going to see entire essays on the personal motivations of individual characters. That wasn't what I meant. To clear the seventh Chakra, Aang had to let Katara go. Which he did. It's as simple as that, he let her go (or at least tried to), end of story. If what he was doing was somehow wrong, we would have gotten hints of it. But what did we see? Aang tranquily standing next to his big cosmic buddy, purely focussing on the cosmic energy without distractions, basically doing what he had to do. That implies that Aang was doing exactly what Pathik told him to do. If what Aang was doing was somehow inherently wrong due to bad motivation, we would have seen Aang struggling, fighting against the thought of Katara etc etc. But this wasn't so, thus it seems pretty safe to me to conclude that it wasn't the intent of the authors to make it look wrong. And then of course I could go on a rant on the idea of Agate love, pure love, to love someone enough to give them up, which happens to be in line with what the Chakra doctrine in Hinduism teaches (thus making it possible this could be the way the creators'll go in season 3), but I'll spare you on that one... |
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Post by taiyo *on limited hiatus* on Feb 3, 2007 13:49:05 GMT -5
Ugh! I don't know what to think anymore.
Kataang: Aang loves Katara and he's obsessed with her. He needs to learn he can still love somebody without being attached to them. Aang, think about saving the world man. If you save do it for the world, you'll be doing it for Katara too. Just tryin to help the kid cuz I love him like that.
Taang: My OTP. I'm also one of those Taangians who know that this ship is unlikely to happen. Aang likes Katara and Toph possibly likes Sokka (I got more of a sibling vibe between those two but that's just me). The only thing that could make this happen is the Swamp vision. Really, in my opinion, it already came true on the love part. No, I'm not in denial just hear me out. I think Aang loves Toph but only as a friend/sister/partner in earthbending crime. The Earth King made two proofs of that. He included her in the family and, along with Katara, hugged her towards the end saying he'll miss her too. Back on topic, they might bond and become more sibling like but I doubt romance.
Sukka: I don't ship this ship but that doesn't mean I want Suki dead. I HOPE she's alive. Sokka obviously has feelings for her and vice versa.
Tokka: As I said before I felt more of a brotherly/sisterly vibe from them two but that's just me. If she does have a crush on him, it's cute on her part. If their relationship is only platonic I think it's cute all together. They might get closer than they already are. If it's not Katara interacting with her, it's Sokka. Aang interacts with her sometimes but Sokka is the head ringer.
Zutara: I don't ship this shipping either, but it would be cool if they became friends. I don't know if it's still there but in the Spoilers section, they claim Toph gets in danger and either Aang or Zuko is going to save her. If Zuko saves, that might spark a friendship between Zuko and the Gaang, including Katara.
Maiko: Well, the creators said they'll meet. Who knows?
Ty Lokka: I doubt it's going to happen.
My longest post so far.
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Post by lunauc on Feb 3, 2007 15:14:24 GMT -5
Well, then we disagree. Even though I hate using this argument, I still have to point at the fact that we are dealing with a show aimed at children, so it will not go beyond the grasp of the 8-year olds amongst us. Which is why the "why" questions are not going to be elaborated on too much, simply because "why" questions tend to have vague and ambiguous answers, just as philosophy is generally ambiguous and vague. And Avatar has so far been a blatantly direct show, so I can't really see tthem going in that direction. The philosophical and cultural references in Avatar are beautifully done, but there are limits to what they can do. "What" questions on the other hand are direct, simple and easy to understand. "What are you doing?", "I'm eating a banana". No ambiguity, just a simple answer. So that is what Avatar is going to focus on most, like it has done for two seasons already, they're going to focus primarily on what characters are doing, not why they're doing it. Well, unless the motivation is simple and basic, without too much philosophical mumbojumbo surrounding it of course. Kiddies like magic karate, not Buddhist/Hindu philosophy classes. So unless Mike and Bryan want to see their ratings plummit, I doubt we're going to see entire essays on the personal motivations of individual characters.[\quote] Yeah... I hate the kiddie show defense too. Mostly because, while the show is directed at a young audience it faces many mature themes. Death, duty, pride, prejudice, inner turmoil; they aren't things you'd usually see in a show directed toward children. Form Jet's plans of justified mass murder to Zuko's mad quest for honor, to Zaoh's insane desire to gain glory by killing the moon, these are not they kind of things you tend to see in western animation, which is generally directed at children. Eastern animation, which this show is greatly based off of, on the other hand creates shows which appeal to children with magic and action as well as teens and young adults with drama and detailed emotion. Anime quite often has mature and thought out schemes, and I believe Avatar is no different. Simply the amout of work put into developing the characters and exhibiting their psyches is far beyond traditional american cartoons, which just have the one-dimensional heroes bouncing from adventure to adventure with little rhyme or reason. So, I can only hope that this show will follow along the higher ground, rather than succumbing to frivolous commercialized storytelling. Though You may well be right. |
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Post by spook on Feb 3, 2007 19:29:52 GMT -5
Yeah... I hate the kiddie show defense too. Mostly because, while the show is directed at a young audience it faces many mature themes. Death, duty, pride, prejudice, inner turmoil; they aren't things you'd usually see in a show directed toward children. Form Jet's plans of justified mass murder to Zuko's mad quest for honor, to Zaoh's insane desire to gain glory by killing the moon, these are not they kind of things you tend to see in western animation, which is generally directed at children. Eastern animation, which this show is greatly based off of, on the other hand creates shows which appeal to children with magic and action as well as teens and young adults with drama and detailed emotion. Anime quite often has mature and thought out schemes, and I believe Avatar is no different. Simply the amout of work put into developing the characters and exhibiting their psyches is far beyond traditional american cartoons, which just have the one-dimensional heroes bouncing from adventure to adventure with little rhyme or reason. So, I can only hope that this show will follow along the higher ground, rather than succumbing to frivolous commercialized storytelling. Though You may well be right. Oh yes, the show deals with very mature subjects, but in such a way that it is still acceptable for kids to see it. The genocide of an entire race/culture is the first that springs to mind, I'm still mystified on how they could integrate something so horrible into their story and still get Nick to air it. It's a thin line their treading on, but they seem to be doing it just right. But, then again, none of these issues have been too complicated, have they? Zuko's obsession and Zhao's arrogance were the very things defining their characters, which they had plenty of time to show to us, since both of them had lots of screentime in season 1. Jet's plan of massmurder was also explained to us in such detail that there was almost no room left for us to use our own minds. Complex subjects, but handled in such a way that it's very easy to understand, even for little children. Very remarkable if you ask me. I personally believe Avatar has been a victim of the commercial and materialistic hollywood-vibe since the day it aired. It's been a pretty formulaic show since day one. Not that that's a bad thing though, I never really cared whether concepts are cliche or unoriginal, what is important is the way the writers manage to implement said concepts into their shows. And Avatar has managed to do that in a very refreshing way. Think about it, what's so original about the "Chosen One has to save the world" idea, or the "bad guy slowly turning good"? Both have been used to death, but I still love Aang and Zuko very much, despite the lack of originality of their characters' roles in the story. So conclusively, Avatar is a show with a formula, which isn't going to deviate too much from the usual storyline. Doesn't mean it's a bad show though, I still love it very much. Simplicity doesn't always mean that the show is poor, I've seen too many shows and movies which tried to take a different route for originality's sake, only to come crashing down in a mix of bizarre story-ruining plottwists. Heh, unless you start talking about my mother, I doubt you'll be capable of offending me. Let me guess, you want to mock my idea of "true love" with the notion that they're still kids and incapable of having such kinds of feelings? Am I close...? Seriously, I know you don't like Kataang, so you disagreeing with my statements won't be that much of a shock to me. So, to quote the almighty Al Bundy: "Let's rock...!" |
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Post by lunauc on Feb 3, 2007 20:16:18 GMT -5
Seriously, I know you don't like Kataang, so you disagreeing with my statements won't be that much of a shock to me. So, to quote the almighty Al Bundy: "Let's rock...!" Let's not. While I wasn't expecting to offend you, some people really explode on me when I question kataang.  As for everything else, I do agree that the show is formulaic and cliche, I've said it often enough. But the themes and psychological conflicts of the characters are deeply developed and well crafted. So, while I accept that this may end in a linear fairy tale resolution ending with no twists or deviation, I'm just hoping the show will stick to its guns and offer us something more. That's all. And as always, it's fun debating with you, Spook. |
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