WEEKLY DISCUSSION -- 2/18 - 2/24

[Amira]

Another discussion topic by our own Catalyst!

I expect everyone to behave themselves and remember that this is a discussion. People have opinions and whether you agree or disagree, your fellow DHers deserve respect.

Do not flame or attack. You all are articulate and intelligent enough to discuss topics like these with maturity and respect.

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Here's the next installment of the series of weekly discussions based on the readiness and capability of some of the characters to have a [romantic] relationship with another character.

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The next character in this series of characters to think about is Zuko.

We have seen glimpses of his past and we have seen the affects of his past, most especially his father's treatment of him (the Agni Kai and banishment), his sister's treatment of him (horrible, door mat, ect.) as well as his mother and uncle's treatment of him. (As a true son, kindness, caring for him always) There is also the Gaang's treatment of Zuko, most of which is affected by Zuko's initial treatment of all of them; their first impressions of him.

Most people feel he is too immature to have a relationship with any girl, others even say Aang is more mature than him, even with Aang's situation. (Meaning that they say that even with Aang being the Avatar; losing all of the air nomads to the fire nation (or so we know); even with everything that happened to Aang in the past and during the journey we have seen, Aang is still more mature than Zuko)

But we cannot compare the twos' pasts, because they are two completely different situations. So now we are just going to look at Zuko.

So what are your initial thoughts on the readiness of him to have a relationship? Why do you feel this way and are you taking his past into consideration without comparing it to Aang's [past/situation]?

Everyone reacts differently to bad situations; no one can really truly say that Zuko is so immature and needs to get over it already. *is shot* (I know; plenty of people feel that way; but try to do as you did with the stepping into the opposing ship's position and try to think differently here)

It is part of his character, how he reacts, how he deals with things. (Yes, you may say he deals very badly; but the effects of his past affected him quite differently than you or I want him to be affected by it; and not taking that (and his past) into consideration or enough consideration will seriously bias your opinion)


Or are we being too soft? Is Zuko just a whiny brat who does need to get over it already; a guy that we are giving too much credit to?

Also, while you're thinking about all this; take into consideration what happened with Song. With Jin. Whether they were just put in there for Zuko's character development or for a real relationship with Zuko is yet to be seen; but we do know the writers and creators put them in the show for a reason, and the actions between the two and Zuko are not to be forgotten.

And I haven't forgotten about Mai; how do you think Zuko will react to Mai? Will it be friendly; will there feelings on Zuko's part? How will things that we have just discussed here affect Zuko's relationship (FRIENDLY or more) with Mai?

Last but not least (not being biased or anything; I just wrote her in last and that's always what you say not to be mean to any characters; I'm neutral with these discussions ) there is Katara. We have been discussing this since December 1st; but what exactly happened in the cave? Will she forgive him [for his actions afterward]? (Don't be biased here; please) And how did she effect him and vice versa? Has anything changed [with Zuko] since Mai, Song and Jin (in order of actions with him)?



Is Zuko ready to be in a relationship---now or eventually? Should Zuko be in a relationship; can he be in a relationship?


Hope those questions and points to think about are enough to get this discussion going. (Let's see some more of all your awesome discussion skills; the stuff I saw going in last week's discussion! )

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[inuyatta]

This could get messy.

Zuko, oddly enough, probably shouldn't be in a relationship now for the same reasons I pegged Azula, but to a lesser extent perhaps. Zuko is still very much focused on himself because he does not appear to have true confidence in his own self worth. Until he can come to terms with this and stop letting it hold him back, I'm afraid there is little room in his life for romance. Another big issue is his mother--he has no closure as far as she is concerned and that is definitely going to be damaging since they were so close.

As it is, it seems Zuko is still on his journey of discovering himself, and I think everyone he has met so far contributes to that--even Azula. Azula made a good point during the finale when she was telling Zuko that he needed no one to give him honor because he had already reclaimed it (in their mindset). Zuko is still having trouble and will have to continue to work towards the lesson that honor, self worth, trust and love are all things that are earned, not given.

Breaking it down to individual females of the show:

Mai - I do not know yet what she has to offer Zuko, but for some reason I doubt he remembers much of her. Perhaps she will learn something from him? It would be nice and give a little more depth to her character.

Song - Song is pretty much the starting point of Zuko feeling sympathy for someone other than himself. He was in a very rough spot at the beginning of book 2 and he made sure to be VERY vocal about it--but once someone was kind to him and he couldn't complain in front of her at the time, he had to listen. I don't know about you, but that's rather incredible to me, considering he hasn't been very good at it. Granted, he did steal from her later out of desperation--but it does not change the fact that she got him to stop and realize others had been hurt just as he had. This is further exemplified by his encounters with Lee and his family, Tahn and Ying, etc.

Jin - She offered him a chance at normalcy, which is a lifesaver considering what he's been through up til that point. However, she was just so normal that Zuko couldn't possibly embrace the ideal of it all. He gave her up because he is still in need of closure to his own story.

Katara --ahh yes, our lady Katara. Within their limited interaction, there is a change in their relationship as well. He went from thinking of her as a mere peasant to a formidable foe, and even someone he could sympathize with. She kept his visage in her mind as the face of evil--and then eventually discovered that he, too, was human. And then it all fell to pieces, just as they were forming a fragile bond. Zuko knows now why exactly she detests everything he represented to her, and just as they were starting to iron things out, he threw it all back in her face and aided the person who nearly cost her the life of her most precious friend. It seems the only thing saving Katara from thinking the entire Fire Nation is evil is Iroh, who stepped in just in time to allow her to escape with Aang.

I've said it before and I'll say it again--looking at how Katara reacted to Jet when they reunited, Zuko is going to have to say or do something miraculous before Katara can harpoon him. Judging by her skill level currently, he's going to have to be faster than Jet Li (XD). Good luck with that.

To wrap this up, I don't think Zuko will be ready for a true romantic relationship until sometime after the final battle--he has many, many loose ends to tie up and debts to repay.

[Sokkaroksya]

I will say that Zuko has a lot on his plate right now. I personally don't think that he isn't mature enough for a relationship, rather that he has been put through more in his ~17 years than most go through in a lifetime, certainly more than all of us on here who are that age (at least, I hope so). That being said, I don't know if Zuko has enough room in his psyche to take on another pressure like that. Of course, the other side of it is, it could be that a relationship is exactly what Zuko needs to relieve some of that pressure, having a person who likes and supports you does wonders, and I know I take that for granted a lot. Clearly Zuko's only supporter for much of the series is Iroh, but having a significant other fills a niche that the loving mentor/father figure simply can't. Time will tell where Zuko takes this.

Now, as for the individual ladies Zuko has met...

Song: I think Song was there for character development, and not a whole lot more. She was there to let Zuko take a walk in the shoes of those he had been taught to spit on for so long, to see that they had feelings and losses too.

Jin: Jin was the glimpse into the life Zuko might have had had he not been so tortured thus far. She gave him the relationship that borders on fairy tale perfect, but I think at that point, Zuko went to Defcon One and backed out without considering whether it would benefit him or not. I think given a second chance, this could work out.

Mai: I think this is the messiest of them all, given that character interaction has been minimal, and while it's clear Mai had feelings for Zuko once, and may like him still, just the fact that both have been through so much may make it hard to reconnect. If they can, though, Mai may (no pun intended) offer Zuko the most in a relationship, given that he has known her the longest out of all of them, and she's FN, like him, which, although it might sound silly, could be the degree of familiarity that Zuko needs.

Katara: Hoo boy, do I want to go here...? Ah what the heck...the possibility of a relationship with Katara hinges on Zuko's ability to realize the differences between them, and be willing to meet Katara halfway. They are both very different people, and that will end up being the deciding factor, assuming they can get over the immediate problem of Zuko having given the whole Gaang a Very Bad first impression, one that would take nothing short of a miracle to overcome. But, the scene in the cave proved that civilized reconciliation is certainly possible, even probable, given the right circunstances. Overall, I think this one could happen as easily as the others.

[Isaac]

Wow...ok I'm new here and I've been dieing to discuss this topic since...forever. Seems like fate to me haha.

Zuko is my absolute favorite character in the series, and in my opinion, he has developed and changed the most throughout the story. I first started to like Zuko in "The Storm" when he decided to, at last, make a selfless decision for the safety of his crew, and even saved the life of one of them. (where did they go anyway?? I always liked the crew...)

Book 2 was great beyond my highest expectations as far as Zuko goes, because in this season he really began to become an integral part of the Avatar story. I think the person who had the greatest effect on Zuko was Lee, the little boy whose name he even used after their encounter. He was very much like Zuko, energetic and a bit rebellious, but mostly eager to take his place in the world. Lee was the first person Zuko ever had the chance to be a positive example too, and though he would end up failing, I think he never forgot how he can help others.

I'm going out on a big limb here, but I think Zuko has changed much more than Aang. Zuko grew up always trying to compensate for being less than his sister, and ultimately always failing. I believe he became aggressive and angry because he was always behind, and once his mother was gone this only became worse. Zuko, however, is not as mature as Aang in my opinion and I think that Zuko has a long way to go before he can fully understand himself, and be able to use lightening! (sorry, couldn't resist)

Song: I would like to think she will come up again, but I doubt it. She is, as far as I can remember, the first female to really sympathize with Zuko and that is very important. However as he was too immature to understand this bond, he broke it and I think that is the end of her.

Jin: Well, not much more that I can see from her either. It was nice to see Zuko try to be sweet, and he didn't blow things like he did with Song, however I think he understood that there is no way for him to be with her. I think she is the best looking out of all Zuko's ladies, but thats a moot point really.

Mai: This I am really looking forward too. The scene with little Zuko and Mai in "Zuko Alone" is, in my opinion, the cutest scene in the entire show. I don't think Zuko had any real feeling for Mai, but I think she will start to come after him once she realizes he is now on the FN side. This should be fun to watch I hope.

Kitara: I want to see a lot more interaction between these too, as I think the chemistry there is the most fun to watch. However, in order to break the rift between them, I think one needs to save the life of the other somehow. Unlikely, I know, but it would be nice...

Lastly, Mai and Kitara need to have a duel over Zuko sometime...*shot*

[inuyatta]

I think the person who had the greatest effect on Zuko was Lee, the little boy whose name he even used after their encounter.

Just had to point this out, but Zuko first came up with the aliases of 'Li and Mushi' when they met Song--other than that, interesting post.

[yiceman]

Seems like most folks have already said a lot of what I think. Zuko's definetly capable, he doesn't have a black hole where his genetels should be like Azula does, he's just...preoccupied.

So it could go either way. He could be too busy, or he could find someone who helps him on his journey. Look at his character, it seems more likely in a storytelling sense that he would end up in a romance. He's the strongest, biggest male figure in the show (sorry Aang, but you're 4 feet tall and don't shave yet), so it seems highly likely they'd have something planned. So what kind of girl would it be? I don't think Song or Jin. Song was more of a character development person, someone who was Zuko's first introduction with life outside the world of the Fire Nation. Jin was his first introduction to romance, and the kiss they had definently implies future events, though probably not with Jin. The fact that Zuko turned away is basically the start of a new plot line, just like the lightning is. Sooner or later, we'll expect him to use lightning and the redirecting technique, because once they introduced that he has problems with it, proper storytelling protocol says that he's got to succeed before the end.

Just like the kiss: It was an introduction to the character for romance, and we saw him turn away, because he's too troubled. So they'll have to conclude that story arc to finish his development. It likely won't end with us still wondering if he's incapable of really having intimate feelinsg, they've got to give us closure. Meaning a Zuko romance is even more probable.

I also don't think it will be Song or Jin because they're very rooted and immobile characters. Why do I say that? I don't see either of them putting on rough clothes, abandoning their lives, and spending their time romping around following Zuko around as he deals with his various delimmas. Nor do I see them standing about providing commentary every time he fights. Zuko needs someone who can fight alongside him

This makes the most likely candidates Mai and Katara, with the former having a higher chance atm. I doubt it will be a new character, because Zuko's so dynamic viewers probably won't so easily accept some new chick, and we already have an excees of skilled female fighters (5 vs 3, if you count Sokka).

Mai seems most likely because...she apparently actually already likes him. But this relationship is still quite shrouded in mystery, and on a more personal note...Mai seriously needs to lighten up. She's not very cheerful or lovable right now. She might just be extremely bored, and I'm not saying she's an asexual cyborg like Azula is, but seriously, the girl needs to smile or something.

As for Katara...I'm in a bit of a bind on this one. Looking at the situation, it seems unlikely that they'll end up together. Too many barriers and too little time. But then, this was the first and only ship that I actually took notice of before even joining one of these sights. Why? My storyteller's instincts kicked in. I read a lot, and I've come to develop a knack for spotting potential relationships with characters early on. A lot of them tend to come out of the blue, just like Zutara probably would. I've read one where the woman repeatedly told the man she hated him for months, when she was really just trying to convince herself.

So I start watching this show, and my eyes unconsciously start lining up potential romances. I have to be honest, I dismissed Aang rather quickly. When I found out about his crush, I thought "What? He's like 9 years old" No matter the arguements about maturity, I can't help but look at him and see a child. Sokka already achieved his romances early on, and that left only 2 major characters in the right age group. So I see these two, and ignoring the fact that they're on opposite sides, my instincts say, "There you go." I don't consider their being enemies as much of a factor, really, because I've seen crazier romances pulled off skillfully. I still like to think my instincts are correct, they have a 80/20 rate going so far.

So of course with these two there's the whole trying to kill each other, yadda yadda yadda thing, which everyone's going to say so I won't repeat. Honestly though, I can't help but feel this would be prime entertainment and writing to see them actually pull this off. Tons more interesting than another season of Aang blushing at Katara before she finally goes "Omg Aang I love you too let's go live happily ever after" at the end...It's nothing against the particular ship or characters, I just find it...boring, dull, cliche, overdone, predictable, cheesy...I'll stop before I say anything i regret because chances still are very high that Kataang happens.

So anyway, piling instincts with reason and process of elimination left me with Zuko/Katara. I don't ship it, I just would prefer it to happen because quite frankly, it would be THE most interesting ship to see happen on screen (not counting the crazy ones. I'm sure seeing Azulaang happen would be a feat thought only accomplishable in Bizzaro land).

So to answer the original question,

Can Zuko be in a relationship? Yeah, course he can. He's quite nice when he wants to be. He's just got a lot on his plate right now.

Will he be in a relationship? Very probable. In fact, if you had a brief description of each character, 9/10 storywriters would probably point at him as one of the most likely to end up with a romance before the narrative is complete. (Tall, dark and handsome prince striving to regain his honor, anyone?)

Who will it be with? Not Song or Jin, they were pretty much one shot characters not even big enough to include in the schooltime shipping short. Mai? Probably most likely, but..blech. Katara? That would be INSANE to see, but it would make for GREAT television. I can't think of a more dynamic romance happening on the show, so I like to think that it would.

[Isaac]

Thanks for that inuyatta, I kinda watched the episodes in a random order (I have them on my iPod) and got my timeline mixed up

sorry Aang, but you're 4 feet tall and don't shave yet

Well he does shave his head...haha just kidding, good point

Just adding to my point, I'm personally rather against "Kataang" (I think I'm getting the hang of these abbreviations), because as far as we know, Avatar relationships rarely work out. (Roku and Kiyoshi seem single, and Kuruk is still hunting for his wife some hundred years later...) Aang did choose to give up Katara at the end of season two, and I generally think Katara accepts the fact that Aang cannot be too concerned with her. She wants him to be the Avatar, not her boyfriend.

Zukara has a huge shock value, and if what I've seen so far is evidence, the writers like some shock value. However, for it to work, something huge has to happen. An episode from another Nick show, "Ben Ten", has a good example of this (ok so I watch a lot of Nick...MTV blows, I'm not an ESPN sports junkie and I can only watch so much MSNBC. Besides I hardly watch TV anyway). In one episode, Ben is chained to his nemesis Kevin and forced to fight in an arena style scenario. If one dies, the other is killed, and Ben is forced to work with Kevin in combining powers and other strategies to survive. If a similar thing could happen to Zuko and Katara, them forced into working together for a common goal, they could form a very strong bond.

Hmm...thats all I got for now. I'm a very timid forum user so I'm gonna lurk on this thread for awhile before I decide to expand or not ;D

[Amira]

I do think one day Zuko will be ready for a relationship, but not now. The boy has got far too much going on and way too much turmoil to work through. I think he needs to figure out what is going on in his head before he could be a suitable partner for any girl.

That being said:

Song - I love Song and I wish she'd come back. She is the one who first made Zuko face-to-face aware of what the people of his nation had done and yet she was handling her situation with grace and dignity and was using what had happened to her for something good. She became a healer.

Jin - Zuko finally got to realize that maybe girls weren't so scary after all and he could actually spend a pleasant evening with someone.

Mai - I love Mai and I'd love to see them interact. I think the fact that Mai is not a nuturing, motherly type is actually interesting and might be just what Zuko needs. And we haven't seen all of who Mai I think is and so I can't see ruling her out right yet.

Katara - I see Katara being almost an Ursa replacement (Song has a potential for that as well). She would "fix" and "heal" him. Their fights are dynamic because of who they are in relation to each other - enemies, Zuko trying to attack Aang/Katara fighting alongside and protecting Aang. But I do not necessarily see that dynamic interplay translating into a facet of a romantic relationship between them. I think Katara would adopt the "girl trying to fix a broken boy" role with him and I don't see that being terribly romantic or terribly beneficial to Zuko (or to Katara). Because of who Katara is and her motherly tendencies, I see her falling directly into filling the void Ursa left in Zuko.

All in all, the ladies Zuko has met along the way have been shaping his mindset in someways and leading him to maybe having a romance down the line.

[reasonable]

Zuko is immature. Immature of course meaning still needing to grow to fulfill has maximum potential.

Does this mean he can't be in a romantic relationship? No, in fact he NEEDS to have that happen. That is part of why Iroh railroaded Zuko into going out with Jin, aside from my own personal theory that paints Iroh in less than selfless light. Anyway, the places Zuko needs to grow the most aren't places that a couple dreams and a few wise words can fix. No, only interaction with another human being, a person who he can learn to love, trust, and ultimately care for will bring about the changes he needs in his life. As Iroh says, "there is good inside of him", but as Sokka countered, "come back when it is outside of him too". I believe Zuko needs someone to help him get that out .