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Post by Amira on Feb 11, 2007 20:10:55 GMT -5
This week's topic comes from Catalyst and the following topic information was sent to me from her:
Well, I've been reading posts here and there and I've seen quite a few disagreements on the readiness and capability of a character to have a [romantic] relationship with another character, most especially debatable being Aang, Zuko and Azula.
To start off with for this week, we're going to look at Azula. Since season 3 hasn't started and the season 2 finale was one to change many opinions, this is widely debatable and your opinion might change with the coming episodes, but we're going to look at what happened so far in the show. We're going to look at what has happened [with and about here] while debating what we don't know about her past and how it will affect her future, especially with relationships.
As we look at the threads of the RB, we see only 3 ships with Azula; those ships being Sokkla, Kohzula and Azuki. (Though there's also Azulaang) As we look into other, more general, relationship threads, we see people thinking of Azula in terms of crack relationships or none at all. Few people actually think Azula could have a serious relationship.
Why is that, besides the obvious that Azula appears evil, self-centered and cold? What makes Azula so unlikely to have a relationship? Has anyone ever thought of how her past may have possibly scarred her; changed her?
Well, I have, and I would like to share with you all a little excerpt of a fic I've been working on and it deals with Azula and her past. It may be pure speculation on my part, but I think it's very probable and I think it will help you think better about this topic [of Azula being able to be in a relationship or not] because you can't predict the future without first determining/knowing the past.
(By the way; this excerpt is post-season 2 finale; at the start of season 3 in my terms)
So after reading that, what are your thoughts? Have they changed? How do you percieve Azula to be affected by Ozai? Do you really think what you see is what you get with her, or is there more under the cold façade constantly on her face?
Is Azula ready for a relationship? Can she be in one; should she be in one?
Hopefully these questions posed to you and the excerpt of my fic will help you think more in detail about Azula and possible relationships or even just Azula in general.
(Part 2; with Zuko is coming next week )
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
Posts: 1,852
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Post by inuyatta on Feb 11, 2007 20:53:20 GMT -5
Honestly? No, I don't think she's suitable for a relationship. The simple fact is that no one else comes before her, and until she is shown to be able to put someone else's needs before her own, willingly--then no, I don't see Azula being able to have a relationship.
I'm actually on the borderline, trying to decide if Azula wants to do everything for her father, or if she has ambitions of her own. She took down Ba Sing Se by herself practically--and her words to Zuko about reclaiming your own honor imply that she does not feel she needs her father's validation to prove herself worthy--I'm right now trying to think whether or not Azula's latest victory will inspire her to take the momentum further and overthrow Ozai herself.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 11, 2007 21:06:42 GMT -5
Well I for one think Azula is less loving than a bag of rabid wolverines. The main arguement for the chance that she might be lovable at some point in the future is based around her possible past, mostly because we know Zuko's angst stems from Ozai. We saw two major flashbacks of him, one when he was around ten or so, and another when he looked to be 13-ish, and both times Ozai was the cause of his suffering.
So why couldn't Ozai be responsible for Azula's evil nature? Here's why. First off, we know Ozai likes Azula better. Take Zuko's quote about his father saying she was born lucky, but he was lucky to be born. Now Zuko was the oldest, and the male heir, so do you really think Ozai just looked down at Zuko when he was born and said, "dang, I hate that baby."? Naw. Ozai became dissapointed in Zuko's lack of what Ozai considered redeeming qualities; mainly a fierce nature, skilled bending, cunning, and overall bloodthirstiness. So why did Ozai like Azula? Did he look at this girl and say, "I'm gonna make her evil?"
I don't think so. I believe Ozai became more and more dissapointed with Zuko that he eventually just stopped spending time with him altogether. My guess is, Azula picked up on Ozai's contempt for Zuko, soaked in her father's foul attitude, and became Ozai jr.
Sounds tragic, right? Not really. Think about it, Azula wouldn't have any regrest for who she is. She wouldn't feel any remorse for her actions. Why? Because by behaving that way, she recieved praise from Ozai. From her perspective, having a killer attitude was something to be admired, something which caused Ozai to like her better. Enjoying this reaction, she continued to behave this way, getting more and more praise from Ozai, and noticed his contempt for Zuko and duplicated it.
So why would she change? Why would she have any regrets what-so-ever? She thinks these are good qualities, traits to be proud of. She doesn't feel bad for hurting people, because she doesn't think it's wrong.
Never once has she shown regret for her actions. Never once has she done anything that could be considered a decent, humane action. She's manipulative, canniving, bloodthirsty, cunning, deceitful, and competely without remorse. Not the best personality on which to develop a relationship.
Just look into her eyes, and you'll see it. Never a sad look, or a regretful glance. Never once has she shown any human emotion except spiteful laughter at those she finds weak. I dare anyone to prove me wrong on that.
So...that's what I think ;p
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
Posts: 1,852
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Post by inuyatta on Feb 11, 2007 21:30:59 GMT -5
You might check on some screencaps of 'The Drill'--there were a few shots of Azula's face that appeared almost wistful. Not sure about that yet, but until we get an Azula-centric episode, we're not gonna know for sure. That being said, I don't see her forgoing her ambitious nature to start a relationship anytime soon.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 11, 2007 22:14:04 GMT -5
I looked at all the screenshots at avatarspirit.net and never saw anything I'd call "wistful," more like determined, skeptical, and disinterested.
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
Posts: 1,852
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Post by inuyatta on Feb 11, 2007 22:26:00 GMT -5
Avatarspirit doesn't have all the screenshots, sadly. =\ I'm not sure what to describe one of the scenes as, but the only description I'd buy off of you is possible 'disinterested'.
Either way, as I said, unless we get a 'Zula centric episode, it's all up in the air.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 11, 2007 22:43:28 GMT -5
Well what were the circumstances of this wistful look? Keep in mind that things must be in context. She's busy fighting half the time, so she's not about to be dreaming about her past. It's more likely just an unintentional look in the animation. Generally, if the creators want to convey a meaning of deep emotions in a character, they do something more obvious, such as the close up dramatic image of Zuko's scar in episode three where we're given a little forshadowing of his dule with Ozai.
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
Posts: 1,852
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Post by inuyatta on Feb 11, 2007 23:32:39 GMT -5
Dude, I know that. The reason it stood out to me is because the expression didn't match the circumstances and that is what is making me second-guess her as far as having feelings other than just being OMG!EBOL.
Back to the topic though, horrendously traumatized or not, Azula isn't ready for a relationship, and seems incapable of a healthy one as of right now.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Feb 11, 2007 23:40:48 GMT -5
All right well, matter of perception and interpretation.
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inuyatta
FN Aang
The joy of SoKo comes at a heavy price...my sleep, for example
Posts: 1,852
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Post by inuyatta on Feb 11, 2007 23:46:05 GMT -5
well, of course. I just don't think they're going to allow strange animation errors when it costs about a million bucks an episode, so here's hoping they're a little more careful than that. ... Where are the rest of the people to post on this?
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Melis
Long Feng
hay baby wanna get away on my bison?
Posts: 3,293
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Post by Melis on Feb 12, 2007 0:03:46 GMT -5
Hmm, *strokes imaginary beard* I think Azula can be capable of having a relationship. Perhaps maybe not now, because of all that Fire Nation propoganda was drilled into her head. I think the reason why Zuko and Azula are so different is because of their parents.
Zuko seemed to be really close to his mother, as we saw in "Zuko Alone". Whereas Azula seemed to be closer to her father, because she was the prodigy. It would only make sense for Ozai to take Azula under his wing and "discard" Zuko since he isn't a firebending prodigy like his sister. Azula probably grew up listening to daddy dearest and wanting to follow in his footsteps. Zuko's been gone from the FN for two years, banished and exile by his own father. Azula's been in the FN for 14/15 years, and went to a Firebending Academy for Girls, she's been fed so much propoganda that she probably believes in it.
I have a feeling that maybe, just maybe, something will happen to Azula to shatter all of that, and then she'll start to realize the truth and what's really going on. If she does, then everything she's known/lived would be defined as a lie. Maybe her personality will change because of it, and then she'll become more "open" or "compassionate" if given the right support after "the fall". I don't know if it's possible in canon, since at the moment she's defined as the "villain" of the show, or at least one of them, but it does seem like a possibility to me.
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adictvbitrsweet
Avatar Korra
I am aware I've been misled; I disconnect my heart, my head
Posts: 1,044
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Post by adictvbitrsweet on Feb 12, 2007 18:54:40 GMT -5
Oh my gosh. Ya just- You have no idea how long I have been waiting for a topic like this to pop up. Azula's inner machinations are a discussioner's dream. You first must analyze Azula herself. Who is she? Based on what the show has provided us, Azula is made out to be a cold, calculating machine of a girl; her sole purpose is to accumulate power for the glory of her nation and serve as an antagonist to just about every other character. There hasn't really been any other side of her shown to us. Admittedly, she is a flat character. Not to say that there can't be anything else to her; keep in mind, we still have twenty more installments of the series left to go, and that's more than enough time to be given a glimpse of a deeper Azula. The thing I find strange about Azula's character is her lack of depth. She has an amazing back story: a prodigious royal devoted to her father, working relentlessly to perfect herself no matter what the cost. It is very much implied that Ozai helped make Azula who she is. He is the one who encouraged her quest to perfection, perhaps even then one who inspired it, kindled it to what it is. The question is: why? Why does Azula feel this need to go above and beyond all others? Why has she devoted herself to her father's war? Why does she take pleasure in becoming Ozai's ideal daughter despite the terrible standard she's held up to? It's the textbook explanation of a child that naturally wants attention. Zuko was the elder, the heir, the more important child by default, and there is no doubt in my mind that this was felt by her even in her earliest years. As time progressed, Ozai began to realize that his son was not the talented, like-thinking child he had hoped for, and he turned his attention away from Zuko (quite literally) and onto Azula. Ozai discovers that Azula is his quintessential - naturally gifted, and similarly controlling (she wants her element, he wants the world). Azula starts to notice her father's eyes on her and revels in it. She takes sadistic pleasure in Zuko's "exclusion" so to speak. These factors continue to inspire Azula to please her father... and make sure she doesn't get out of his eyes. Then, in the cliched tradition of so many attention-craving children, Azula becomes her father's copy, a machine devoted solely to fulfilling her dad's orders. Personally, I think that underneath her cold exterior... there's still something inside her. It's really, really deep, but still there. We can't exclude Ursa because, despite Ozai's influence, she was still her mother, and still must have had a shred of influence on her daughter. You'll also see, in Zuko Alone, a scene in which she and Zuko ran around the garden playing chase. Remember her doing cartwheels with Ty Lee, and falling. She was still just a kid. I understand that it was a long time ago, but for some reason those particular actions got to me. It showed her being human. Being who she was. I think there is significance in that. As far as relationships go, most of Azula's relationships have been purely antagonistic, even with people she considers friends. She is always in control. In charge. From this I'd deduce that any relationship (apart from her and Ozai's) that leaves her in a position where she is not in control highly disconcerting and possibly enraging to her. As you can see, not great grounds for a companionship. But I'd like to think... maybe sometime farther in the future, after the war... if Azula were ever to go through some big falling out emotionally... her submitting to her true self. And then maybe starting a nice friendship, at least, if not something more with a nice, quiet guy. I ship Azula crackfully with Long Feng, Zhao, the Dai Li, Haru, and Koh, as do many other people. I think that the reason we do that is because of the image Azula gives us of herself - controlling, calculating, witch of a girl; truly, the last type of girl you would expect to see in a loving relationship. It makes for a funny pairing. And truthfully, that's the only way we really can ship her right now. I'd like to think that my ideas are what's been happening for real, but as far as we know, it's not, and Azula is just Daddy's Little Girl and nothing more. If I were ever to ship Azula seriously with anyone, it'd be Jet if he wasn't dead. Only after an inner emotional crisis, of course. Anything before that is ludicrous. Both would seem like people who have gone through inner change with themselves, and have accepted that they've been pretty bad humans. Something they could bond over. My signature Azula shipping song is "Headlock" by Imogen Heap ( lyrics). You can download it here. It's all about being unsure of your ability to love, about almost not wanting to out of fear of yourself... though knowing you can, and you should despite other feelings. I'd imagine she'd feel that way if the opportunity to have a relationship ever presented itself to her. ETA: Edited for spelling urrurs and broken links
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femaleairbender
Blue Spirit
Just a fool to believe I have anything she needs...She's like the wind...
Posts: 2,165
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Post by femaleairbender on Feb 12, 2007 18:54:57 GMT -5
Nah, I don't think Azula will be in a relationship, now or ever. She's grown up listening to Ozai, and believes the Fire Nation propaganda is true. She has no compassion for others, it's pretty much her way or the highway.
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Post by Werewolf Cookie on Feb 13, 2007 0:37:25 GMT -5
Great topic! At the moment, I agree that I don't see Azula in any relationship. But I don't think Azula's pure evil. For one thing, Ozai had a lot of influence over her, but sometimes I think maybe it was her relationship with her mother that changed her. Ursa clearly favours Zuko and doesn't really seem to like Azula at all, and Azula similarly doesn't seem to love her mother. If the two of them had a particularly bad relationship, maybe Azula behaves the way she does in an attempt to be different from her mother, and has a close relationship with her father because she loves him more. In one fic I read, Azula struggled not to be like her mother because she felt that her mother was weak, was treated badly by Ozai and would never have any real power, and she was afraid that she would be like that too if she didn't behave more like her father.
Off the topic of Azula's past, am I the only person who sees the parallel between Azula and Aang? Azula can bend lightning and is such a formidable opponent because she's suppressed her emotions and doesn't feel love or attachment to anyone around her. Aang, at the moment, is confronted with a choice between love and power, and in some ways I think Azula represents what will happen if he makes the wrong decision. Not that that really has anything to do with Azula shipping.
I ship a lot of Azula pairings, including Azuki, Jetzula, Azulee, Azumai, Azulaang and Zhaola, but I don't see any Azula ship actually happening, unless Azula gets a hell of a lot of character development in the next season.
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Post by aangryjerk on Feb 13, 2007 9:54:04 GMT -5
I think with Azula it's mostly a matter of nature, not nurture. She's just a sociopath. There are unfortunately people who have wonderful parents and backgrounds and yet become monsters because of some faulty wiring in their brains. Her father may have contributed to her development into what she is now, but I don't see how Ursa could have been an influence. She was not withholding love from her daughter in any way. Azula just didn't want it. She was manipulating her mom pretty skillfully at a very tender age and Ursa rightly found her appalling when she caught Azula taunting Zuko. I think the truth is there is no depth to Azula. She's an evil sociopath who'll never show any redeeming qualities. There needs to be a few characters who are completely "black" to contrast with the "grey" characters and Azula fills that role.
As for her in a relationship, as long as her partner puts up with being dominated and tormented it would work. But she'd probably end up getting poisioned or knifed in bed when the other person has had enough.
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