WEEKLY DISCUSSION #8 11/14 -11/21

[Amira]

WEEKLY DISCUSSION: 11/14/06 - 11/21/06

TOPIC: Ages

SUMMARY: This week's discussion is about ages of the characters and how you think they affect shipping.

Examples:
*There is the thought that Aang's age is a hinderance to him being able to know what romantic love is.

*One of the reasons Toph and Aang seems to be a popular ship is because of their ages.

*There are some characters who are not shipped because of their age, primarily Iroh.

*Does chronological age make a good determiner for romance? For example, Zuko may be 16/17 years old, but is he mature enough and ready for such a relationship or a commitment?

I would like to see everyone's views and opinions on the age issue. It seems to be a constant theme that runs through various ships.

RULES: Please be respectful of your fellow shippers. Disagree, but do not bash or attack. Please back up your comments with evidence or specific reasons. And no spoilers.

[Smiles :)]

~*~ I have used the argument before that because Aang is 12, he doesn't know what he's looking for or really how to handle a romantic relationship. No offense to any 12 year olds on this board, but really 12 years old have no idea what they're doing in a romantic relationship, the basic 12 year old relationship is they decide they're "dating" someone walk around school holding hands for a week and then break up and start dating someone else.
And of course every year people start handling their relationships better. But then again how many people find their true love when there 14 or 16 for that matter? If you think about it that way all of our shipping is all to ruin. If us avatards lived in a more realistic world we'd all be shipping IrohxAuntWu or JunxFoamy, but we don't so our pairings work out all fine and dandy for us

~*~ In regards to age difference in ships, it's another one of those things that if you don't try to compare to real life, it works better.
In reality, I think that 12&14 and 12&15 are a little weird because of the age difference, but I don't think that 14&16 is so weird. I realize that this is a bit hypocritical. The way I see it though is that when your younger a year or two seems like sooo much more than when your older. Like the difference between 5&7 seems greater than beetween 35&37.
And then there's that comparing it to real life thing again. I know the beginning of my freshman year I had a friend dating a 7th grader (the 12&14 difference) and me and the rest of my friends all found this very weird; but then, I also had a friend dating a junior (the 14&16 difference) but we really didn't find that strange at all.

I think that knowing what my age is might affect the light you see my argument in somehow (or not), but I'm 16.

[Ana]

Whoo, I’m all over this.

- I think how old you are shouldn’t matter much in a relationship (unless it’s like..Aang/Iroh or something but that’s something else entirely). Yes, Aang is 12 but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t know what love is. Yes, Zuko is 16/17 but that doesn’t mean he’s ready for a relationship. In my opinion, what makes one ready for a relationship is one’s maturity (or in this case development) not age.

- In regards to age differences, it doesn’t matter much to me unless it’s a big difference like Aang/Iroh (no offense to any shippers!). If a 12/15 year old couple can work it out (their levels of maturity or whatever are pretty even, etc.) than I say let them.

- This is rather trivial (and comes off from what Smiles said) but I think comparing to real life is pretty much useless. Yeah, a 12 and 15 year old dating in real life would be odd but it wouldn’t be in Avatar’s time. In Avatar’s time, young ladies were married too much older men so saying such and such pairing wouldn’t because of something in real life is dumb.

[femaleairbender]

To me, age doesn't matter in a relationship, unless we're talking like a 10 to 20 year age difference.

[zukoxme]

Okay, well alot of people get really upset about age differences. Using my own life experiences... In 6th grade, my friend who was 11 was dating freshmans and eightgrades. (11/14, 11/15) Okay, now you may find this shocking, but she (my friend) was VERY mature. (A parent mistaked her for a teacher once.) In actualty, if you hid you age, and you looked younger/older than you seemed, there would be nothing conflicting you from having a relationship. What I can't get is that why people get all freaked out about age differences. If two people are attracted to each other, nothing can stop them from being together.

Kataang- Always been bashed about the 112/14. omg aang's 112 and katara is 14, this ship can soooo not happen [insert ship here] FOREVER!1!1111!11!1 Those posts REALLY tick me OFF.

Zutara- Always envyed when the age difference isn't that bad. 16 and 14 year old, how sweet! Blah blah blah and so forth. Most newbies become Zutarians because they think that if you're a girl and you like someone younger than you you're wierd. SO NOT TRUE!!!

Maiko- Also an envyer.

Soko- Half and half. Song looked around Zuko's age. If the "newbie" Sokoites found out that Song was older than Zuko, *WHOOSH* Bye bye ship. See the prejudice?

Taang- 12 and 12! How adorable! Blah blah blah... NOT. 12 year olds (from experience) are not the "perfect couple". 12 year olds have the intendancy of dating someone, break up, come back together, and break up again. Person likes this person, other person still likes boy/girlfriend, and conflict starts. It's not perfect paradise.

Really, age isn't the problem. Maturity, now that's totally different.

[Zink]

In my opinion, a true romance involves some heat between the two characters it involves. This cannot (or should not) be acheived until both characters are partially through or past puberty. I don't think Aang is physically old enough to be two or three years into puberty, and any relationship involving him at age 12 borders pedophilia (in my estimation, the definition of pedophilia being defined as a sexual relationship with a prepubesant person). I think Aang is emotionally capable to be in a romantic relationship, but I would not feel comfortable seeing him in one until he's 14 or 15. (I AM NOT SAYING THAT ANY CHILD WITH A BOY/GIRLFRIEND IS A PEDOPHILE. LET'S JUST MAKE THAT CLEAR.)

I see Iroh as more of a Sean Connery than a guy who will settle down in a serious, shipable relationship. Seeing as he's flirted with at least 3 women in Avatar, I don't think he wants commit to a serious girlfriend. Since we've seen Lu Ten as his son, and we haven't seen any births out-of-wedlock in Avatar (they probably would not be allowed on Nick) we can assume he was married, and since we've seen neither hide nor hair of her, I think she died, and Iroh, though a ladies' man, refuses to commit to another woman in honor of his wife, rather than his age. Face it, all the girls love Iroh. He could take his pick, but instead, he's lining up dates for Zuko.

I see Aang/Toph as a very cute ship, but I don't think it would go beyond the platonic stages until both of them got a lil' older.

[Werewolf Cookie]

I think that in a relationship, social maturity is a lot more important than age. Aang's twelve, but he's mature (underneath the happy-go-lucky fun-loving exterior), he's responsible and he understands people. Katara is also very mature, and unlike Aang this is immediatly obvious with her - it's pretty much her defining characteristic. Toph, however, partially because of her years of having no friends and partially because she's very defensive about her blindness, has very little social maturity. Neither does Zuko. So even though Toph and Aang are the same age, and even though Katara and Zuko have an almost ideal age gap, Katara and Aang are of about equal maturity, and so are Toph and Zuko. I don't actively ship Kataang, and I certainly don't ship Tuko, but it seems to me that ages aside, Aang and Katara are more socially mature than Toph and Zuko. It's funny, because a lot of people have mentioned that girls aren't really interested in younger guys, but in my case at least, that's only because boys apparently mature at a slower rate than girls, so if you want someone as mature as you, you date an older guy. The problem with applying this theory to the two major Katara ships is that Aang is arguably a lot more mature than Zuko.

On the topic of twelve-year-olds not having real relationships and doing the whole "date for a few days, break up, get back together" thing, it seems to me that this isn't the case with the Avatar characters at all. Aang's crush on Katara has lasted since the beginning of the series, whereas Sokka, who is fifteen, has been juggling a few girls. Yes, the shippers may argue that he was truly in love with Suki or Yue, that he'll fall in love with Ty Lee or even Toph, but the fact is that Sokka isn't commited to any one girl. He may feel bad about kissing Suki when Yue/the moon is watching, but he's okay with it the next day. He's also okay with flirting with Ty Lee as soon as Suki's gone. Once in Ba Sing Se, he flirts with a whole room full of poetry fans. It seems to me that despite Sokka's age he's a lot less dedicated to a relationship than Aang.

And I think Aang probably has started puberty; he's the same age as my brother, who has DEFINITELY started puberty (in fact I think he started before he was twelve). Pubescent 12 year old brothers are really scary, by the way

[rocio]

To my sincerely the age is not something of importance, inside of the show (personally I like that the boys are the older ones). I am based on which it seems more attractive and advisable within the likely in which everything is displayed.


As far as the maturity, the most mature of all is Katara XD. The others always are in doubt, have their moments. Aang has moments at which it shines mature, but lasts little, right away is making some thing infantile.

Zuko is immature from the perspective of which it does not know what to do and it does not understand certain things; but he faces each occasion with enough maturity; Do you remember that at the beginning of the series all thought that Zuko was 18 or 20 years?



And Aang, biologically speaking is 112 years old, but psychologically he is 12 years XD. Since the other years he was slept XD (suspended animation).


The age is not something of importance, in these cases; position that separates single about two years to each ship (referring to Kataang and Zutara).


Taang............... I like it, the personages have initiated their relation of friendship of an attractive and graceful, typical way of the children of that age.


The problem with the age and the maturity is that the girls mature much more fast who the boys. And Katara is super mature; not only for being girl, but by the paper that its life has offered her, to be in charge of others, to direct to people, to protect, to cure. Things of adults. Katara acts like an adult, except when falls in love; she acts like a fangirl.



Zuko seems not to have youth, he moves, walks and speaks like an adult; but we know that he is young. He has moments of naivete, but they are quite little and they almost happen unnoticed.


Aang is something intermediate; it acts with maturity; but single when has been required it, but the rest of the time is playing with Momo, or making some prank XD.


But better thus, than he continues being young while can.


Toph is special, she says that she concerns little and nothing what the others think; she is of free and rebellious spirit. But simultaneously sensible, classic attitude of pre-puberty in the girls; when they do not act anything feminine and they are strong all along, although they know that not always they can make all alone.



In short, I did not consider the age, but yes the maturity and the probability found within ship XD

[Kyatto]

When you look at it from the maturity perspective, the only characters mentally mature enough to handle a relationship are Sokka and Katara. (Even though Sokka tends to get too girl-crazy.) Aang may e twelve, but he still acts much younger than that in general, even though at times he's very mature for his age. Same goes for Toph.

Yes, Zuko is 16/17, but because of his emotional scarring I think it would be very difficult for him to handle a serious relationship. (You saw how akward he was in "Tales of Ba Sing Se". If he went on a date that truly matterred it would probably have gone worse.) He has sister-related issues so he's not sure what to think of women in general, and Iroh's teasing doesn't a help a boy either. However, I believe when he settles down and figures out who he is and what he wants to do with hs life, he might be ready to seek someone out.

Iroh needs a girlfriend. I don't care if he's an old man. Seriously, if people keep going by ages for their ships, then there should be more Iroh!

[Random Battery]

Like stated many times before me, Katara is the most mature to handle a relationship. Sokka is too much of a ladies' man, Aang is still in the midst of becoming a teenager (as is Toph), Zuko doesn't even know what he wants to do with his life, and Toph needs to learn more about working in a group before she can even think about relationships.

But, let's look at it this way:

12 (Aang & Toph): Prepubescent, just starting to wet their feet in the big ocean of relationships. They need to mature more before they should start looking for "The One".

14 (Katara): Katara is special in the case of most 14 year olds, she has matured much faster than any of my 14 year old friends (and myself, as me and Katara are almost the same age), and will be able to hold a relationship for a period of time. However, she'll need to date around before she can initiate a long-term type of thing.

16/17 (Zuko and Sokka): Zuko and Sokka are two extremely different types of teenagers. Zuko is introverted, shy, and nervous around girls, while Sokka is extroverted, obnoxious, and a ladies' man. Sokka just needs to have a relationship that lasts a few weeks or months, and then I think he'll be good, but Zuko needs to make some friends and relax before he can start to share his life with someone else.

[whipwater]

Before I start my rant, I think this cartoon is one of the best I have seen, and I have watched allot of them. I enjoy watching this with my kids and its good time spent. I came to this site to find out spoilers or info on the show, when the next one will be one and that sort of stuff, then I stumble onto this. I think that this is quite silly. This cartoon is about 11-15 year old kids, saving the world , some causing trouble and everyone wonders who is going to hook up with who. Romance is not something 12 year olds get. I was once 12, and I was noticing girls, but I wasn't consumed by my new hormones. Most kids that age cannot grasp basic math and English. Most cannot write a complete sentence using fairly decent grammar. I find it disturbing that so many people wonder who will find love in this cartoon. I don't know, maybe I am old fashioned. I don't think "kids" should date till 16. I think this hint of romance that seems to run in the show is unhealthy for good morals. 12 year olds are kids usually into riding their bikes, playing sports , etc, etc, and need not be pushed into relationships at a young age. I think it causes confusion and pressure that is not needed. There is already enough pressure on kids of that age to perform well in school. And that pressure is good pressure. Forming good study habits and self discipline are things that should begin to assert themselves in kids at that time in life. I just felt I needed to say something, this Kataang and Zutara stuff, is just kinda sick. I find that romance, is usually followed by some kind of sexuality, and this is a cartoon about 11-15 year olds. I find it disturbing on some level that I just cannot completely put into words myself.

Now to set something straight, a crush on someone, which is what I do see Aang having on Katara, is harmless, but it seems allot of persons on this site seem to try to make so much more of it. Is it just me?

[Amira]

Well, you are entitled to your opinion. But quite frankly there are many people who do enjoy the shipping aspect (and most people who like Katara and Aang, for example, only ship older Katara and older Aang) and I don't see why it is sick. It's part of the fandom like it or not and people enjoy it.

The Ava-verse is decidedly not ours. Yue was considered ready for marriage at 16 and the Ava-kids are very different in terms of lifestyles than ours. It is clearly not a "modern" time. So comparing them to "modern" kids is rather pointless.

If you don't like shipping, then there are other parts of this forum that I'm sure will interest you. But this is a legitimate discussion about a topic that often arises in the shipping fandom.

And considering the show has Sokka's romances, flirting between Aang and Katara, and Zuko testing the romance waters, romance and love does play a part in this show. And if people want to talk about it and speculate, there is no harm to it. Considering this is a PG-ish forum, there is very rarely anything sexual and all most shippers want to see between characters is a first kiss. And many just enjoy the interaction (Kataangers for examples) or the potential for interaction (Zutarians for example).

[Werewolf Cookie]

whipwater: I'm fourteen, and I can assure you that at age twelve I was fully capable of using correct grammar and doing basic math, as were all of my friends. My best friend had her first boyfriend at age eleven; they were together for six months and they kissed (a real kiss, with a little tongue, not a peck on the cheek). It was a real relationship, not a kindergarten "hold hands for a day" relationship; you people aren't giving twelve year olds enough credit. At my school, we had socials, which weren't exactly like innocent school discos. A lot of the stuff that happened was pretty bad, although tame compared to the school socials now that we're fourteen, which involve alchohol and pot. Twelve year olds aren't innocent. My brother is twelve, and he's not that great about being subtle with his emotions. Some of the things he says and some of his behaviour suggests to me that twelve year olds are not as innocent as people seem to think. I'm not saying that this sort of thing is okay, and I'm pleased to say that at fourteen I remain a socially mentally challenged loser who can't flirt and has no boyfriend. But the point is that I think there's much bigger priorities to worry about than the shipping community of a cartoon show.

[whipwater]

Again, I do not believe a crush, and that is pretty much all I see, from Aang towards Katara, is anything harmful, and there is something to be said that the 16 year old was "ready" for marriage, as their custom was such. I don't agree with those customs. I think they are far from evolved, perhaps immoral and they infringe upon personal rights. However, I think that was part of what that episode was trying to say. Katara herself thought the customs were wrong along with gran-gran many years before. 16 year olds getting married IMHO, is a poor choice.

It costs allot to bring up kids in this world, and that's where we live, this world, not the world of Avatar, so go to college, and figure out what you want to do in your life that can make you money, that is legal, and fulfilling, so you can raise a family. (Just so you all know, my favorite character is uncle Iroh, could there be a reason?)

Cookie, I am glad to hear that your are confidant in your proficiency with the English language, however I hope you aren't joining in with the rest of your peers at your socials. Drinking at 14 is illegal, pot is also, no matter what age, and I feel sorry for your parents if you are. I hope you have friends that don't care for such activities that you can associate with. Just because your peers are drinking at 14 , that doesn't make them grown up. Quite the opposite, actually.

Just because you (not meaning YOU , but plural) are intelligent, that doesn't give a license for immorality. At 12-14 a kiss may be harmless, but I know boys, I was once 16-18, kissing leads to other things that can get kids into a lot of headaches. Having a baby at 15 years old can ruin your chances at getting a better education, or even , completing high school. Most teenage girls forget that their jock boyfriend who is the star quarterback in high school, (not quite making millions in the NFL) will likely leave them and not support either the mom or child, because they want to go to college. I saw that happen to the girl that lived behind my house, and I was friends with the guy, who turned out to be a real jerk.

Most teens feel great pressure to be cool, to date the good looking people to fit in. Fitting in is far from the end all, be all of life. I am sorry but 7th grade English level is not as intricate and deep as the language gets. Most kids in 12th grade, cannot get a passing grade on testing for 9th grade English, and it is a fact that the standards have been lowered so kids will pass, and this is a serious, grave issue.

But anyway, there are other places on the boards that I do enjoy the read. I just think the relationships between kid cartoon characters is a bit much.

[writer]

whipwater said:

Again, I do not believe a crush, and that is pretty much all I see, from Aang towards Katara, is anything harmful, and there is something to be said that the 16 year old was "ready" for marriage, as their custom was such. I don't agree with those customs. I think they are far from evolved, perhaps immoral and they infringe upon personal rights. However, I think that was part of what that episode was trying to say. Katara herself thought the customs were wrong along with gran-gran many years before. 16 year olds getting married IMHO, is a poor choice. It costs allot to bring up kids in this world, and that's where we live, this world, not the world of Avatar, so go to college, and figure out what you want to do in your life that can make you money, that is legal, and fulfilling, so you can raise a family. (Just so you all know, my favorite character is uncle Iroh, could there be a reason?) Cookie, I am glad to hear that kids around you are doing well. Just because you (not meaning YOU , but plural) are intelligent, that doesn't give a license for immorality. At 12-14 a kiss may be harmless, but I know boys, I was once 16-18, kissing leads to other things that can get kids into a lot of headaches. Having a baby at 15 years old can ruin your chances at getting a better education, or even , completing high school. Most teenage girls forget that their jock boyfriend who is the star quarterback in high school, (not quite making millions in the NFL) will likely leave them and not support either the mom or child, because they want to go to college. I saw that happen to the girl the lived behind my house, and I was friends with the guy, who turned out to be a real jerk. Most teens feel great pressure to be cool, to date the good looking people to fit in. Fitting in is far from the end all, be all of life. I am sorry but 7th grade English level is not as intricate and deep as the language gets. Most kids in 12th grade, cannot get a passing grade on testing for 9th grade English, and it is a fact that the standards have been lowered so kids will pass, and this is a serious, grave issue. But anyway, there are other places on the boards that I do enjoy the read. I just think the relationships between kid cartoon characters is a bit much.

For the love of any Vedic god. Post Paragraphs. You say 12 years can't comprehend basic grammar, and you have paragraphs of doom. Please...post small paragraphs so I can read them <<

Anywho, somebody sounds like an MOF(mean old fart) from the nursing center I work at. You don't get out much do you? I mean, not only are you very old fashion but the way you talk sounds like someone from the Bible Belt region. Seriously with TV show that has diffrent moral standards because of the world culture that it align too, you should figure out, that our morals don't fit ours. Enough said. It's on think for a fifteen year old in out world's realm to fall in love and bear children. That is risky and dangerous. But in Ava-verse. Perfectly normal. Relashionships in the ava-verse is immportian for the story and it give a sense of humanity for characters and the audiance. We can smypathize with Aang and Zuko and we cheer for Sokka.

As for relastionships in the RW, I feel degraded, you were talking about high school relationships, and I'm dating my high school love. We are very commited, but by the tone in your words, I feel that you're expecting women in those relationships to be bear-foot and pregant. Again I feel degraded.

But thats just personal opinon. As for the current topic. We made some good point about our child-saviors, but what about the old fogies. I mean I'm so rooting for Pakku and Kana to kiss and make up, and Iroh seriously needs to find a nice lady tea conoseuer. We're forgeting about the old and kick-as* here.