Monk
Haru
Posts: 337
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Post by Monk on Jun 25, 2007 1:09:44 GMT -5
And people say that Zuko is a long shot? Azula has a much longer path of redemption to walk than even Zuko does for his sins.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jun 25, 2007 15:49:15 GMT -5
Ok you DO think Azula will be redeemed...that's where we differ. I think her character is on such a scale that any sort of redemption would be impossible and make no sense.
You really don't see anything wrong with Long Feng? What about Zhao? I think you have to recognize that there is such a thing as an absolute villain. Zuko may fog that, but villains are necessary in a story like this. And it's necessary they remain villains. It is necessary to have someone for the good guys to beat, and when they are defeated, you are happy. Long Feng and Azula are villains. Azula has been described by the creators as the epitome of an evil villain in the series...that doesn't much sound like they intend to redeem her.
As for Long Feng...he brain-washed people, kidnapped Appa, and killed Jet. He's not going to be redeemed. In this kind of a story, the action's of a character have twice as much importance as they would in real life. Like in Lost, the character Michael betrayed the others and killed two people. He had good motives, he was a good person, but after that the fandom revolted. Most of them say they'll never forgive him.
My point is, there is a clear-cut line for a character where they've officially gone to far, and the only possible redemption that would work for them is death (aka the Darth Vader approached). That's because they did so much bad, not even turning good in the end counters it. The character's death becomes necessary.
So yes, if you're so adament about this, I'm going to ask you to write out the scenario where Azula would be redeemed, and see if it works. Nothing fancy, just a step by step "and then this happens, and she does this." Hopefully keeping in mind A) her basic personality traits, B) Zuko's basic personality traits, C) the course of their plot lines, D) the conclusion to her story, E) manage to make her forgiveable for murdering Aang.
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SpiritBender
Buzzard Wasp
Ya tvoy hozyayn!!! (May The Force serve you well...)
Posts: 537
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Post by SpiritBender on Jun 25, 2007 16:17:46 GMT -5
You want us to understand her and see from her point of view. That doesn't have anything to do with her being anything more than a villain, though. I see Long Feng's point of view, but I still know he's not a good person. And again, if that's all you want, then it has nothing to do with redemption, which is what GOZ and myself are strongly against. So plain and simple, do you want her to be redeemed or not? If not, then we don't have a whole lot more to discuss, methinks. I don't see anything wrog with Long Feng...I don't see what makes him a bad person. I don't have specic wants for Azula. Just give me some development and good story telling and I will be fine. I just think Azula will be redeemed. What's wrong with Long Feng? The same thing that was wrong with Stalin, and just about every other tyrannical dictator in history -- they are concerned only with CONTROL! They cannot see anything past the acquistion and maintenance of control, and will ruthlessly do anything it takes to have power over everyone and everything around them. Long Feng turned Ba Sing Se into a police state. Yes, people were "safe" from the Fire Nation there, but they lived in fear and a state of imprisonment. Ask yourself what is worse -- a painful but quick death at the hands of a firebender, or a lifetime living in a cage? Aside from that, Long Feng was standing directly in the way of the Avatar doing his job. He tried to prevent the Avatar from informing the Earth King of the eclipse and marshalling an Fire Nation invasion because he believed in his arrogance that he could keep people safe within the walls of Ba Sing Se forever. He turned out to be terribly mistaken. Not only would Ba Sing Se have been invaded if the Avatar had not stopped the drill, Long Feng's botched scheming ended up handing Ba Sing Se to the Fire Nation on a platter! He was so caught up in his struggle to maintain control over Ba Sing Se that he failed to realize he was caught up in forces that were MUCH bigger than himself. Long Feng had no business ruling Ba Sing Se, and was always doomed to lose control over it. Azula shares the same problem with Long Feng. Yes, she is much cleverer and a much more skilled manipulator, but she too cannot see past her desire for power and control. If she were to succeed and kill the Avatar (a.k.a. the LIFE OF THE PLANET) and defeat all the other nations completely, then fire would rage out of control and burn up the entire planet. Her becoming the Fire Lord would be the worst possible thing for the Fire Nation and the world as a whole. People like Azula and Long Feng represent what happens when people become utterly consumed by ambition. That is why they are the villains, and that is why it is their fate to be defeated by the protagonist/Hero. I understand grandmaster192 that you fell in love with Azula's character and you want to see her grow into more than what she is now, but unfortunately that is her role in this story. -- SpiritBender
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Jun 25, 2007 17:28:54 GMT -5
grandmaster... you've attempted to justify her shoddy treatment of Mai and Ty Lee, but have not tackled the issue of her outright murder of Aang. Keep in mind the callous smirk she wore as she shot him down; she knew she'd killed him the moment the lightning tore through his back. And there she stood with the most horrific look of satisfaction ( it's my user-pic' ) -- how is that forgivable, redeemable, or excusable in the least? She killed someone with a smile! And not an ordinary person... but the Avatar himself, the quintessential presence of the earth in human form! I would really like to hear your thoughts on this. Do you find her cold-blooded murder of the Avatar "okay" or "passable"?
It's as yice, SpiritBender, and myself have been saying for the past several pages: Azula has a role in the story, and that role is to bring forth chaos... also known as a villain. That's her one true purpose. Her character has nothing to gain from redemption -- nay, it seeks to cheapen her influence on the story and warp her into a two-bit ploy with wasted potential. I don't want that. I want her to fulfill her intended purpose, stated as much by Mike and Bryan themselves, even if it winds up killing her: a possibility I fully acknowledge and accept, because, at the same time, I also acknowledge and accept her destiny as a VILLAIN, no matter how much I like her and wish her to live.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Jun 25, 2007 19:05:11 GMT -5
Right. You do not have to want Azula to change to be a fan of her. In fact, most of us argueing against her redemption seem to like her purely BECAUSE of how evil she is. If she was nice and sweet, I wouldn't like her that much. Overpowered, little personality, etc.
I like her entirely as a villain. There are many many stories where I've loved the villains, and had absolutely no desire to see them get anything but their just deserts in the end (as long as they go out with a bang). Why? Because I recognize their role in this story. They're villains, bad-guys, antagonists...and as such, the last thing I want is for them to compromise everything that makes them so deliciously evil and awesome by becoming "good." That just ruins it. If they're killed, you feel conflicted and confused instead of "yeah! Take that!" If they live, you feel un-fulfilled and lacking closure..."So what, she just got away with all that crap she did?" No me gusta.
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Aug 7, 2007 15:25:09 GMT -5
*coughs*
Um, hi, I'm new here, so forgive me if reviving an old topic is breaking the rules or something, but after reading all the posts here, I just couldn't keep my mouth shut.
That being said, Grandmaster, MissJimmy, yiceman, and General Z, I stand in awe of your debating skills, and can only hope to bring my point across as clearly as you do.
Azula is possibly one of the most ambiguous characters on the show. We get her motives and her intentions the least out of everyone else. We know very little of her past, save for some flashbacks, and only see her for a grand total of about eight or nine episodes. Compare that to Zuko and the gang, and you really can't say you know her that very well.
Which is where theories and speculation come in.
So, since I have a huge mouth, this'll probably be long (apologies in advance), and since it's hard to figure out where to start from, cause I have a lot to say on this topic, I guess I'll start off with what's picking everyone's bone on the last two pages and work my way from there.
Ty Lee and Azula are friends. It's a fact. They are.
They may not be 'omgbestfriends', but they are. Ty Lee was genuinely happy to see her, and that's why she hugged her. If all she ever experienced with Azula was discomfort, I don't think she would've been too thrilled to see her.
And if you care to notice, when Ty Lee let's go of her, Azula's holding her hands in hers, not the other way around. She definitely considers her a friend, at least to some degree.
The whole 'forcing Ty Lee into going with her' was mean. I'm not denying that. Azula's manipulative, and that's one of the things we love about her (or at least I do). She needed her though for this mission, so it was either order her to, or give her the right incentive. I do think, however, it's a bit of an overstatement to say she was taking pleasure in Ty Lee's suffering.
She was smiling, because she knew her plan was working without a hitch. When they set the net on fire, and released the animals, she could practically see the wheels turning in the acrobat's head, and when she went to congratulate her afterwards, she only did so because she knew Ty Lee would not refuse her again. Her plan had worked perfectly. She had no doubt that she would join her now.
And like grandmaster said, she had full confidence in Ty Lee's abilities. She's not stupid, she grew up with the girl, and notice, she even asked the ring master if he thought she would fall. Obviously, she had checked it out beforehand, and knew that her friend would keep her balance.
Is that the nicest thing ever? No, but this is war, so sometimes you have to force people to do things they don't want to, and let's face it, she needed her.
Another thing to note, it could be that Azula, what with her determined personality and such, might find Ty Lee's bubbly, innocent, blonde-ish personality somewhat...annoying, and therefore doesn't pay much attention to her comments. She does tolerate it, like Mai does, and she acknowledges her remarks from time to time.
When they meet up in Omashu, the first thing Mai does is ask Azula, "Please tell me you're here to kill me."
And they both laugh.
Now, if that's not part of some private joke, I don't know what is. And, what's more, Azula hugs Mai, not the other way around, and says, "It is good to see you again, Mai."
If Azula isn't best friends with Ty Lee, she certainly seems to be with Mai. I don't see any other way around it, she definitely has a friendship with this girl, more so then Ty Lee, that much is obvious. I don't see why else she would hug her, cause Azula doesn't seem the touchy-huggy type, or why she would be so happy to see her. If you listen carefully to her voice, she sounds almost...relieved.
And like grandmaster keeps saying, she treats them well because they're her friends. She doesn't have to give them special treatment or do anything extra for them, she could just as well say that them being around her is a privelage enough. Obviously there's something deeper to their bond then simply being her subordinates.
And, another thing, she does give them orders. Like in "The Drill", she says, after the assurance of the war minister, "...just in case, Mai, Ty Lee, take the earthbenders out."
It's not beneath her to to tell them what to do, and as a princess, she would think she has the right to.
As for when they're children, her treatment of them is normal for a kid who's eight or nine years old. Have any of you ever watched little girls in play, like, third graders or something? Cause I've done observing in a couple of schools, and if there's one thing that stands out about girls, it's that they're mean.
Boys, when they're upset, or angry, or want to spite, or whatever it is, will use their fists to convey their message, but girls will be mean to each other. It's a fact. Sure, you'll have those girls who won't do anything, or will just complain, but most of the time, they do things to get the other back.
It's only as they get older they realize that it's mean to be mean (especially if they've been on the receiving end of the treatment), or they channel it to more refined, subtle forms.
Azula is your typical, eight-year-old brat in those flashbacks. Pushing Ty Lee after she had successfully done a cartwheel was mean.
What did you expect, her to say, "Omg, Ty Lee, that was so awesome, you so pwn me when it comes to acrobatics, please teach me how to do that!"
She reacted in a way any girl would have reacted after having been trumped. She pushed her over. Why? She was jealous cause Ty Lee was able to do something she could not, and given her personality as a perfectionist ("almost isn't good enough"), she couldn't stand being outdone.
Do you see her pushing Ty Lee over now? No. Obviously she's realized that there are some things she'll never be good at, and so therefore has chosen to focus on what she is good at.
The apple on Mai's head was also something to amuse them. They both laughed at it, and both teased the two accordingly.
On the whole Zuko-Azula thing.
Honestly, I don't want to sound mean, or prying or anything, but do any of you guys have siblings? Cause I have two, and I know we gave our mother one heck of a time trying to keep us from killing each other while we were growing up.
I know the media is all for promoting good sibling relationships, but the fact of the matter is, not all brothers/sisters get along. I don't know about anyone else, but when I was a kid, we used to do things to each other out of sheer spite, or just to annoy the other, or to get a reaction out of the other, whether by teasing, taking the other's things, tattle-telling etc.
Granted, we're all adults now, so we've mostly grown out of it and actually get along (though there are those incidents from time to time), but what I'm trying to point out is, Azula's behavior, at least to me, was completely normal for a girl her age, and more so of her stature.
Look at it this way, Zuko is her older brother. What younger sister doesn't love to get on her brother's nerves? Especially one as tempermental as Zuko? Forcing him to play with her was just one of those things that siblings do to each other, and when she dragged him along with her behind the curtain, again, she was being his sister.
Also, Azula, in those flashbacks, and in the present, has a more dominating personality then Zuko. She doesn't hesitate to take charge, or order people around. Heck, she doesn't even seem to have respect for that many people, like grandmaster pointed out, just look at that audacious kick she aimed at her own grandfather, the Fire Lord!
It only makes sense that she would string Zuko along after her (he's her brother, after all), and Zuko's not strong enough to say no.
When Lu Ten died, Azula is sad. You see it through her body language, like MissJimmy points out. My impression was that she was stunned at the fact that her cousin died.
And we don't know how much time elapsed since the death of Lu Ten, to when Zuko is playing with his daggar. It could have been a week, it could have been one hour, but I think it's safe to assume that at least a few days had passed, since Zuko is playing with the daggar his uncle got him, and he seems happy.
Also, Azula's degrading talk of Iroh seems normal, at least to me. As stated before, she doesn't seem to have a lot of respect for older people. Stature, relationships and things like that, don't seem to matter a lot to her. If you want her respect, you would probably have to earn it.
This could also be because, likely, she was always told how great she was (being a princess, prodigy, etc.), and was always waited on hand and foot. If you don't teach a kid to respect people who are older than you, and that same kid is always being told how great they are, well, put two and two together.
The praise and stuff obviously went straight to her head, causing her to become arrogant enough to say such things. And she doesn't seem to have much of a relationship with Iroh, nor Iroh with her (I mean, he got her a doll. A doll for heaven's sake! He obviously doesn't know his niece that well), so why should she hesitate in calling a man she had no respect for a quitter and a loser?
Another thing, this is mostly speculation, but think of the relationship Iroh and Ozai had while growing up. Iroh being the great "Dragon of the West", it's not so off the mark to assume that Ozai may have brought up short in the talent department, at least, seeing as he could never live up to his older brother. Maybe it was just me, but there definitely seemed to be a lot of tension between Ozai and Azulon in that flashback.
Assuming that Ozai had a large hand in training his daughter (which isn't so off the mark either), I would imagine he had a couple of things to say to her, some of which may have been degrading remarks on Iroh, and if daddy dearest doesn't think someone is worth the space, why should she?
But, again, that was purely speculation.
Also, Azula values her father's opinion a lot. So far on the show, everything she's done was for him. Capturing her brother & uncle, conquering Ba Sing Se, getting rid of the Avatar, she did it on his command. That doesn't mean it was neccessarily the right thing to do, but nevertheless, renaming Omashu 'New Ozai' shows more then anything else that it's for her father she does things (though I agree, she may derive pleasure from it as well), and she's mostly his weapon. If she was really doing these things for herself, wouldn't it make much more sense to call it "New Azula" or something?
So, my point in just saying that is, that Ozai doesn't have a very high opinion of Zuko, and if Ozai doesn't, then why should Azula?
Anyway, on the whole murder thing.
To make a statement, Aang isn't dead. Neither is Iroh or Zuko, so whatever attempted murder there may have been, all failed. Therefore, you cannot actually call her a murderer, until we see someone dead by her hands. Innocent until proven guilty, I believe that's the motto of our justice system.
When Azula sets out to capture Iroh & Zuko, she does so on the commands of her father. She was told they were traitors to the Fire Nation, and thus consequently must be brought to justice.
Now, we're talking about Zuko and Iroh, the two men she probably had the least respect for. Zuko is her older brother, he stands in her way towards the throne, and she never really cared much for him. Iroh is her uncle, whom we already see she never had much respect for, so when she's told she has to bring them to justice after they were labled as traitors to the Fire Nation, wouldn't it make sense that she'd manipulate and deceive them?
And we don't know if she actually tried killing Zuko. It could be she would have, had Iroh not intervened, but it could also very well be that she would have simply injured him enough that he wouldn't be able to escape on his own.
When she attacks Iroh in "The Chase", well, let's put it this way.
She was cornered. She had five extremely powerful benders, three of which were considered masters of their element, her brother, and one Avatar.
For the love of gd, did you HONESTLY expect her to let herself get dragged off to some prison cell, and NOT take advantage of Iroh's guard being down?
That would have to have been the stupidest move of her career! Only an idiot would've let themselves get captured, instead of turning the tables when the situation presented itself!
And it's pretty obvious, from the way they all attacked her a second later, that none of them really believed she would come quietly. They were simply biding their time, waiting to see who would be making the first move, she, or them.
And on Aang, I still don't understand why everyone is so "OMGSHEKILLEDAANG!"
It's the same thing with Iroh, except that, while everyone else was staring at the light that was coming out of Aang's every orifice, she had the good sense to know that if he gets into the Avatar State, they were pretty much done for.
Think of this scenario: You see a guy about to pull a knife on you, either to kill you, or to hold you hostage. Are you really going to just sit back and twiddle your thumbs, while the knife is being drawn? Or would you do your best to attack the guy before he has a chance to harm you?
Same thing here. Aang was pretty much going to do away with them all, he was going to fight back and liberate Ba Sing Se, which pretty much amounted to Azula getting tossed out on her behind, maybe throw in her brother to boot.
While they were all distracted by the shiny-something in the sky, she attacked, and literally saved their sorry behinds!
And, heck yeah she was smirking! Who wouldn't? Think of it this way. She had just accomplished in the span of a few months, what NO MAN in the Fire Nation, including her uncle, had ever managed.
She just captured Ba Sing Se, the capital city that had eluded the Fire Nation for 100 years! The very same place that her uncle, a general and the afamed 'Dragon of the West' lay a six hundred day seige to, and then gave up after his son died. Yet here she was, a girl of fourteen, never having gone through battles or anything else, accomplishing her goals by sheer cunning, manipulation, and serendipity.
Not only that, but she didn't even need the Fire Nation army! She did it all on her own with the aid of her two friends, plus her brother who redeemed himself at the last minute.
And now, she had just managed to kill/seriously injure the Avatar. The one man/boy who posed the most serious threat to her father's reign. The one that was destined to fight and maybe even kill him.
I wouldn't be surprised if she were thinking of the reception she was going to get when she got back home. She was going to be honored far beyond anyone else, and heck, it didn't even matter that Zuko was there, or was coming with her, cause like her father proved, you don't have to be the oldest to take the crown, and unless Zuko manages to top her on that, I don't think Ozai will have eyes for anyone but his daughter.
So, to put it simply, killing Aang, to her at least, was probably equivalent to ensuring the continuity of her father's reign, and that she would be next in line for the crown.
And please, don't drag in the whole 'Killing Aang messes up the balance in the world'.
Honestly, you really think she gives a darn? Even Zuko doesn't care, despite Iroh's teachings of balance and all that. It wasn't like she was killing the moon or ocean or something, just the Avatar, and look at it this way, he was gone for 100 years, and they managed just fine without him (well, the Fire Nation did, at least).
Okay, I have one more thing to say on this topic, and then I'm shutting up.
Azula can be redeemed, and not neccessarily is it through death. To prove this, I'm going to use Iroh as an example.
Yes, Iroh. The great, 'Dragon of the West'. You don't get a title like that for nothing, and before he was that awesome, tea-loving lady charmer that he is now, he was a general in his father's army, crown prince to the Fire Nation.
He wasn't always such a sweet guy, and I dare say he was a rutheless man before he changed. Just look at the letter he sent to Ursa, what he wrote about Ba Sing Se, '...I hope you can come see it, if I don't burn it to the ground first, that is.'
Burn it to the ground first? What does that imply? Hurting, killing, and taking prisoners of war to be used for who knows what.
He laid a six hundred day seige for pete's sake, and remember the reaction of the Earthbenders who found him in that hot spring? They weren't exactly asking for his autograph.
Granted, we know little of his past, so most of it has to go on speculation, but the show makes a huge deal of Lu Ten dying. How many times has it been mentioned in flahsbacks and or indirectly? Too many times. I don't think the show would stress it so much, if it didn't have such a huge impact on Iroh's character.
My point is, that if Iroh, who is hinted to being something very different then what we know him as today, in his past, then who's to say Azula can't change?
Sure, it might take something really big for her to want redemption (her father dying, the Fire Nation falling etc.), but it's not as unlikely as you guys are saying it is.
I'm done. Sorry for this being so excrutiatingly long.
~Téa
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MsJimmy
Refugee Aang
*drok**punk**highfive*
Posts: 4,630
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Post by MsJimmy on Aug 7, 2007 19:15:14 GMT -5
O.O holy crap muffins... how long did that take you to type that up? lol Very nicely done
I forgot about this thread XD
I agree with everything you said about Ty Lee, Azula, and Mai. All those observations point to a friendship.
So true. Being a girl myself lol, I would know this. Girls fight dirty.
XDD you make me laugh lol. But good point, she does see that Ty Lee is better than her in that field and she's not bitter about it. She matured.
YES. Actually, I have an older brother and the span between us is the same as Zuko and Azula. And yes, our mother had to try to keep us from killing each other. I was actually more mean to him honestly... I remember throwing a bat at him. But I love him =D Point is, siblings fight. But they're still your siblings, your blood, so you love them, even if you never show it. I'm not saying that Azula loves Zuko, nor that she likes him. But has she ever said that she doesn't?
Yeah, I know she's said horrible things about him, and to him- what siblings haven't?
Very good point. That is the kind of person Azula is. She doesn't give respect, it's earned. And if you notice, she is respectful to the people that have earned her respect. By the end of the finale, it seemed to me, that Zuko had earned her respect by helping her. She was very nice to him then, even defying their own father's words. She was there for him- encouraging him when he was having doubts.
Exactly. It's not like she's trying to kill Aang out of pure spite. She saw what was happening, and took that opportunity to strike. She was smirking for her own reasons, that yes she would be honored and ect. She was smirking for her own selfish reasons. You can't call someone evil for being selfish. It's not a good trait, but everyone is selfish at some point in their lives- some moreso than others.
I never thought about that, but you're right. Saying that he was just going to burn the city to the ground... that doesn't seem like the iroh we know. Maybe it was his son's death that was the turning point for him. And maybe it will take something like that- something that will have a huge imapact on Azula for her to change. Being as she's younger, and a teen, that is very possible. She is still a very influenced person- and will continue to change as she grows up, as everyone does.
Very good post Kaibasgirl and sorry my response is so short, but you pretty much took the words out of my mouth so I saw no need to further explain what you already did a fine job of explaining.
Karma for you
and welcome to DH =D
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
Icon by hermonthis from livejournal
Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on Aug 8, 2007 3:17:29 GMT -5
Hello I'm new too, and after reading the Sokkla Plaza thread and this one for the last couple days, I've been compelled to join in. Kaibasgirl, everything you have said--they're most of things I've thought of too. So thank you very much for that. Now I hope you don't mind that I bring up old subjects about Azula, because I've been itching to reply to some of them. I have to agree with those who think Azula's a patriot and Daddy's Little Girl, everything Azula has done is because of her Nation or her father. I've checked the episodes where she's in, and most of them, if not all, have a mention of her father or the Fire Nation. So I highly doubt that she's planning on overthrowing him. From AvatarSpirit.NetAzula: (to her men) My brother and my uncle have disgraced the Fire Lord and brought shame on all of us. -------- Azula: Anyone who harbors these traitors will face the wrath of the Fire Lord. --------- Azula: You know Father blames Uncle for the loss at the North Pole. And he considers you a miserable failure for not finding the Avatar. (o.c.) Why would he want you back home, except to lock you up where you can no longer embarrass him? -Avatar State -------- Azula: My father has trusted you with this city (she makes a slashing gesture with her left hand) and you're making a mess of things! ------ Azula: And there is no more "Omashu". I'm renaming it in honor of my father, the City of New Ozai. -Return to Omashu -------- Azula: I still think our dad would make a much better Fire Lord than (looking at the doll with disdain) his royal tea loving kookiness. -Zuko Alone -------- War Minister Ching: The Earth kingdom will finally fall, and you can claim Ba Sing Se in the name of your father. Nothing can stop us. -The Drill -------- Azula: Why don't you let him decide, Uncle? I need you Zuko. I've plotted every move of this day. This glorious day in Fire Nation history. And the only way we win is together. At the end of this day, you will have your honor back. You will have your father's love. You will have everything you want. -CoD -------- Also there was an argument about Zuko not sitting on the throne somewhere and I have to agree with whomever said that there was only one throne. I mean it's not like they can share it. I think Azula acknowledges Zuko's help. Azula: We've done it Zuko. It's taken a hundred years, but the Fire Nation has conquered Ba Sing Se. (And once again the Fire Nation is mentioned. I believe only in Appa's Lost Days is where the Fire Nation isn't mentioned when Azula's there.) It is evident she doesn't believe she conquered the Earth Kingdom by herself. Sure she could've been acting, but she also placed a hand on her brother's shoulder--in a somewhat trying-to-assure him and she's never done that before. If she was acting, I don't think gesture would've been necessary. And I don't think she's going to betray him after seeing the Season 3 trailer. After all, if she really wanted the throne--she would need her brother out of the picture because she knows he would be Heir Apparent once again. She could've just thrown him overboard on their way back home and take all the credit to herself, but it would seem what Azula promises about returning as a war hero is true. As for her friendship with Ty Lee and Mai: I think they are friends--it's just that their relationship isn't your typical Disney one. Yes we're supposed to have awesome friends that are always there for you; and support you, but not all relationships are healthy. I wish I could explain it better, but I believe this person is better at it than me: forums.avatarspirit.net/index.php?topic=1214.msg135787#msg135787Now on topic: Can Azula redeem herself? Maybe. I'm not too sure about that now, because there's a lot we don't know about her, save that's she's manipulative. After all a lot of people thought Zuko would redeem himself in CoD after seeing his story in Zuko Alone; but it was not meant to be yet. For now I thinks she can be redeemed, because something Iroh said struck me: Also, he told Jet he believed in second chances (though that was probably directed at Zuko.) I think Azula's just doing what she thinks her father wants her to do; I think she's doing things for her nation; and I think she's just doing what she taught to do. In the Fire Nation, they don't see themselves evil. Azula probably doesn't see herself as evil, just a good citizen. To me, she has done no different than what the others from her nation has done--except that she succeeded. I mean Zhao killed the Moon Spirit and yet no one's going on about that; and he knew what he was doing would upset the balance. As for Azula, killing the Avatar would be a good thing for her nation (Messing with the Spirits and the Avatar are two separate things). She is also the princess of the Fire Nation, and usually the monarch is for their nation, and will do anything to better their country (--so it's only natural that she would expect the same from her friends.) In the subject of Luten and Iroh. I think she was a bit sympathetic about her cousin; but for her comment on Iroh and losing his son being harsh? Well look at it this way: in war you lose people, families have lost their loved ones---and yet they continued to fight. To her, she probably thought it was pathetic of him to quit because what made him so special and different than the rest? His son died, but there were probably very similar incidents like that and the ones left behind still continued to fight. Also he broke through the wall! He was practically there, and yet he gave it up. Ok. I apologize for bringing up old subjects but some of them were never replied to, and I just had to say what I thought of them. Oh as for the Zuko and Azula similarities? Umm...Well they both seem to love their nation, they're determined (Azula fought Aang on the drill when it was obvious she was going to lose; Zuko wants to be stronger) and stubborn, and they both seem to think of their father highly. 'Kay...I'm done. ^_^ And these are of course only one person's thoughts and speculations.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Aug 8, 2007 3:43:07 GMT -5
Oy, this again?
Well, to be fair, nice post. Though I, of course, very much disagree with it. Just a few things I pulled out of it:
Let's assume Azula is capable of friendship. So what? The fact that it's debatable at all implies that she's never been represented as the "warm-and-cuddly" type.
Two older brothers and a sister. My brother K. once yanked my pants down in the middle of a family gathering. I don't believe my brother R. has EVER adressed my by my real name as opposed to a nickname, and I used to get the full blast of my sister's PMS-canons quite frequently ;p
None of them ever tried to kill me though...and yes, that IS what Azula was trying to do. What on earth else could she have POSSIBLY been hoping to achieve by shooting LIGHTNING at her brother who was on the ground, beaten, 5 yards away? Tickle him? No. This is a killing move.
She went AGAINST orders by attempting to murder her own brother.
And are you really trying to justify that? She shot Iroh to save her life? Do you really think any of them, Iroh, Zuko, Aang, Toph, Katara or Sokka are capable of murder? Do you honestly think Azula THOUGHT they would kill her? She had surrendered, and they had stopped. Yes, she could have gone quietly. Yes, it would have damaged her ego. Does that make it ok that she shot her own uncle in the chest? NO! You can't justify this kind of attempted murder, my friend. And no, the fact that she's never been entirely successfuly does not make her a better person. It just means the good guys are lucky. The fact that Azula fully intended to commit murder in such a way is enough to encriminate her.
As for the Iroh reference: I never said that any human being is beyond redemption. In real life, any person who genuinly regrets their actions and strongly makes an effort to change deserves a second chance.
But this is a story. Iroh regrets his actions, he's completely changed his ways...it works.
The thing is, it would NOT work for Azula to do this.
Want all the reasons I don't think Azula's character can be redeemed? Hereyago:
1. The creators themselves have described her as purely a villain. 2. They have gone to extreme lengths to stress her as a manipulative and twisted person. 3. They have given her no signs of showing remorse for her actions, nor have they shown her in any scenes that show her in a more "antagonistic" way. IE, Zuko's story in The Spirit World episode...we see him with his own storyline that does not invlove the Avatar in any way. That was, imo, the first huge sign that he's more than a villain. 4. Most of us can agree that Zuko will be redeemed. So I ask you...why would the repeat themselves? Why would they destroy this awesome villain to make Zuko: Parte Duex? They would be ripping themselves off narratively, and if they do it with Azula it makes it even worse (as I'll describe below). 5. It would not match everything we've seen of Azula's personality to suddenly "see the light." She takes too much pleasure in what she does. It would not be possible without a complete personality overhaul. What character traits would you use to describe her now? I can think of a few: cunning, decietful, manipulative, ambitious, merciless. What would become of those traits? Would they vanish? Because added together, they have little to no place in a redeemed character. Azula would have to do a complete 180. 6. She shows no classic signs of a "to be redeemed" character. I've seen characters like Zuko who do bad things for reasons they think are right, but deep down they have noble traits. Azula is not one of these...she'd never go out of her way to help anyone unless they could help her in return. Nor is Azula one of those "troubled" girls. You know the type...emotionally crippled, don't even understand the concept of emotion, empty inside...give others pain just to try and feel something themselves. Not so much Azula. She takes to much delight in the misforture of others. She was pampered as a child, and by all evidence had a childhood anyone would dream of. She's never suffered any trauma that we know of, and shows no signs that she ever has. 7. It would ruin her character. As I said before, there is no place for a redeemed Azula within the confines of the story. I figure there are two kinds of Azula fans: those who love her the way she is, and those who love what they want her to be. I'm the first one. I like her cunning and evilness. I see plenty of people who desire her change so that she can become the poor misunderstood soul that they want her to be. But all of the traits that I love about her, all of the traits that MAKE her Azula, would have to go out the window if she's redeemed. She would be a completely different person. It would ruin this potentially awesome villain just for a phoney ally we don't need. She's so great the way she is. She's really a breath of fresh air as a villain. She's everything we need. She's intensely powerful, she's intelligent, and she's vicious. She's everything we need as a villain. She was just about perfect. So they're going to destroy that...why? To repeat themselves with a Zuko clone? It's absolutely unneccessary and would put an end to the best villain in the show. 8. It would phunk up Zuko's storyline. So much of who he is was crafted by competing with Azula...she's harrassed him and tricked him for so long...he's always been overshadowed by her...how can he have conclusion and resolution in his storyline if he doesn't confront and defeat her? No one's suggesting murder, but it seems absolutely curcial that he surpasses her at this juncture. 9. It would mess up the overall believability of the show. This is a fantasy right? Which means they can just go willy-nilly with human nature and make up whatever they want, right?? No. A show with magic martial arts I'll eat up in a second. A show where the characters act and behave in an unbelievable fashion, and you've lost your audience. They have to connect and believe in the characters, otherwise it's impossible to enjoy and empathize with them. It's even more important in a fantasy show such as this that the characters are believeable, even if they're a little larger than life. So if we have someone who has been represented to be as malicious as Azula making such a drastic switch...I just can't follow it. That kind of a personality switch is too much of a stretch. 10. It would disrupt the entire resolution. How are we, as an audience, to be expected to accept the person who shot and killed the main character with no signs of remorse? How are we supposed to just accept that she'll just "come around," and we're supposed to forget how twisted she's been for the last few episodes? She would have to suddenly have a mountain of remorse, apologizing for every bad action she's done...and that just does not fit her. It's too much! I mean, in real life it's another issue. Forgiveness is a wonderful thing...but in a narrative story, things work differently. If the bad guy gets away with it and no come-uppance, where is the conclusion? How are we expected to be satisfied? How is she going to explain shooting Aang? It's a war? She's just defending herself? SHE brough the war into Ba Sing Se, and SHE set the trap for Aang, and SHE chased him down and attacked him, allowing her to shoot him. She planned the entire thing. And in the end, the only feeling she showed was intense satisfaction with herself that she won. Zuko showed remorse, indecision...he's a better person than she is. As an audience, there are a number of things that are just unacceptable for redemption. There is a clear cut point where redeeming a person just makes no sense, would disrupt the show itself, and leave too many people thinking, "What, she gets away with it? They're all just going to forget about what she did? That's bull---!"
But what about merely showing her as more understandable and empathetic? Still doesn't work. It ruins her dynamic as a villain, which she's so great at. It's too much of a contrast to what we've seen of her in season two. It would be like a completely different set of people are writing. We might see her reasons and motivations, like, Ursa paid no attention to her so she latched onto her father, but that changes nothing. It just explains why she does what she does, but it does not, in any way, justify it.
What about having a last-minute redemption-by-death sequence like Jet? Horrible. Makes no sense. Azula sacrificing herself for the greater good? It's inconcievable. I don't see how she, as a character, would ever do something of that sort without a personality overhaul.
THAT is why I don't think she'll be redeemed.
P.S. Please forgive my forceful language. Never anything personal, I just feel very strongly for this subject.
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
Icon by hermonthis from livejournal
Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on Aug 8, 2007 4:02:39 GMT -5
Quick question, I love Azula (for who she is right now on the show, but I certainly wouldn't mind seeing a "softer" side of her, if we're given that) and I would rather see her redeemed than die; are you saying that you'd rather see her die than redeemed? <--Asking outta curiousity. ^_^
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Bleda
Kyoshi Mai
Wise Kataang/Soph Elite
Time defies logic thus it cannot exist.
Posts: 2,362
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Post by Bleda on Aug 8, 2007 4:08:50 GMT -5
Zuko is capable of redeem himself, even it is a longshot. On the other hand there is no way Azula can redeem herself. We have seen her as 7-8 year old kid and even then she wasn't capable of friendship. I believe that only "positive" feeling she might have is loyalty. Loyalty to his father. Loyalty to power.
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yiceman
Bosco
Not all who wander are lost.
Posts: 2,929
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Post by yiceman on Aug 8, 2007 4:21:08 GMT -5
Yes, I would.
I think her being redeemed would ruin the show. Read all of my above reasons to see why.
She's a villain. A villain's fate, alas, is usually to kick the bucket. Sadly, her death would bring many things.
Resolution, peace for Zuko, conclusion, revenge for Aang, and an all around come-uppance for all of the bad things she's done.
Just like I think having Zhao redeemed rather than killing him would have been HORRIBLE, I would rather see Azula's character die at the end than be redeemed.
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Post by Fire Lord Azula on Aug 8, 2007 12:22:56 GMT -5
@téa, Maylene: I applaud the way you addressed your points and respect your views. However, this doesn't equate to my agreement or seceding. Rather than quote the both of you and respond as I have in the past, I'll address your specific points, as your views appear to mirror each other as a whole. I ask you to forgive me if I don't address every point in this post, as I've repeated myself a multitude of times, and in different threads. It's actually become somewhat of a tiresome topic for me.
Friendship... a recurring and essential theme in Avatar.
Let's take the gAang, for example. All of these kids became friends in a relatively short period of time. By allying themselves with Aang, their destinies have become intertwined with his, to echo Gran Gran. Their group-dynamic is driven by their feelings for one another and the way they express themselves. It's pure and heartfelt -- unquestionably real. When one suffers, they all feel it; they all suffer. They love each other. They would do anything for each other... every single one of them.
Now, you have Azula's group. Can it be said, with any certainty, that Azula loves her subordinates and would do anything for them? No. While a deep relationship such as the gAang's is admittedly extraordinary, it's also a critical theme in this show: a brilliantly-crafted example of what friendship is supposed to be, and it's the glue that holds the characters together in this war-torn world. Thus, it can be said that the creators have stressed the importance of friendship. What holds these three together? Ty Lee fears Azula, and that's why she can be seen flattering her, often accompanied by nervous laughter and/or infliction of her voice. Mai is bored; she wanted out of Omashu. She was wasting away. Azula was her ticket to adventure, or so she hoped. Once she hooks up with Zuko -- and it's coming; there's no way around it -- what will keep her tethered to Azula's side? Nothing.
I'm not impressed by Azula's hugging of the two girls, and it can ( and will ) be argued that she had ulterior motives for doing so. I would say the physical contact and expression of joy was to make them feel at ease. As soon as their loyalty was solidified, she spent the next several episodes ignoring them until they were needed in her schemes. To repeat from a few pages back: she's the most disengaged "friend" I've ever seen.
If Azula were a true friend, this wouldn't even be up for debate...
Re: Azula and Zuko... as an only child, I can't begin to fathom the dynamics of such a relationship on a personal level, as I've not lived it. I will say that "Azula knew how to push Zuko's buttons" -- and this is taken from the mouths of the creators themselves.
"Daddy's little girl"... I would argue that the verdict's still out on this. Knowing what we do of her character and background, it isn't farfetched to suggest that her actions could be an elaborate ruse crafted to throw him off-guard and usurp him when the time is right. Has the audience not been wowed by her ingenuity and ability to plan ahead? Yes. Many times. And, knowing what we do of her true nature ( her arrogance; her tenacity; her pursuit of the absolute; her inability to sympathize and relate to other human beings; her ambitions in life -- "The divine right to rule is something you're born with," in conceited reference to herself ), why should we believe she harbors genuine feelings of love and comradery toward her father? Why should we believe she'll allow him to keep his place as Fire Lord until the day he dies by the Avatar's hand ( which is rather unconscionable now that she believes him to be dead, no? ), or of natural causes? After conquering the impenetrable city of Ba Sing Se, she may feel -- and, in some ways, rightly so -- that the time for her to ascend to Fire Lord status is now. If "love" stops her from achieving her most far-reaching goals, that would be pathetic for her character archetype.
Her reaction to Lu Ten's death is contestable, in that the shot is blurry, and Zuko's reaction was the highlight of the moment, not Azula's. I'm curious as to where this notion of "sadness" or "sympathy" comes from. From what I can discern, she looked the part of neither. Rather, her face appeared to be etched in apathy. Regardless of her reaction, if this is the only moment of her life where she showed an ounce of compassion toward another person, it's not saying much on her behalf!
I've never seen anyone defend Azula's reprehensible comments about Iroh before, so I find this particular point interesting. His only son died, and his niece shot her mouth off about his "weakness"... we're not supposed to understand where she's coming from; we're supposed to abhor her for saying such things. I found nothing normal about her tirade. In fact, it came off as quite callous.
When Azula struck Aang down, she wasn't smirking about the fate of Ba Sing Se, or the way she corrupted Zuko's psyche in order to reel him in to her cause. Given the situation, and the precarious position she was put in -- life or death, certainly -- she had no reason to be thinking of such things at that moment. She was smirking because she killed the Avatar. And "kill" she did; it was only by the grace of Katara's oasis water that he was brought back from the throughs of death. Azula enjoyed murdering him. It had little to do with saving herself, and more to do with the actual act of homicide, of which she clearly reveled in. She could have shot Aang with an expression of neutrality, or even regret, if she had truly done what was necessary, and nothing more. But she took undeniable joy in her actions, as her nasty smirk testifies, and that's why she's condemned so.
Comparing Iroh's past to Azula's present -- and I understand the intention behind such a venture -- has a few discrepancies to point out. Recall the flashback of Iroh playing with Lu Ten in Bitter Work. Did that not seem normal and innocent enough? Outside of the war, he appeared to have a normal family life ( which is much more than we can say for Azula! ). From what we saw in just one brief flashback, he was playful, loving, and a marvelous father to Lu Ten. These positive traits existed before his life-altering experience. So his redemption, as it were, was plausible on the grounds that he already possessed goodness in him: it just needed to be brought out on a higher level. He cared for his son very much, and his death was the catalyst of his evolution into a truly enlightened man. Azula has nothing but negativity -- thus, any notion of redemption on the grounds of personality alone renders it null and void.
There's also the bit about Mike and Bryan proclaiming her "a true representation of evil", as yice already pointed out. Sounds like a pretty big blow against redemption, doesn't it?
From the above, one might gather a resentment or chastising of Azula. On the contrary: she's my favorite character, by far. I see her for what she is... and that's why I like her! And, should a choice ever be given, I would definitely prefer to see her die over being redeemed, the latter of which I feel would massacre her brilliant character and bring to a shameful end her lifelong villainy.
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Maylene
Avatar Roku
Icon by hermonthis from livejournal
Posts: 1,280
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Post by Maylene on Aug 8, 2007 17:29:25 GMT -5
I disagree with this. I think that you either love Azula; or you hate her. I think most of us in this forum love her. Now I do agree that there are two kinds of Azula-fans.
One: They love her for who she is and wouldn't want her any other way.
Second: They love her, but they see potential in her being good (even if it is only by 1%). We don't know much about her, so there is room to speculate that Ozai did have a major influence in how she grew up. That maybe, there once was a time Azula had been normal. I don't know. A lot of people don't think a person is born evil. It's how they're raised; it's how their environment is (Nature and Nurture, I believe it's called.)
General, I salute you. You're good, and I respect your views--though I still disagree. ^_^
If we're going by what the creators are saying (which would be wise, since they are the creators XD) then may I remind you, they also said that Ty Lee and Mai are Azula's friends. Yes. Avatar has friendship as one of its themes--but so is family. And Zuko's family...isn't what you call ideal like with the Fearsome Foursome. Two of them aren't blood related and they act more like family than the Fire Nation's Royal Family. So what's to stop them from having a friendship that isn't healthy?
[glow=red,2,300]Can I please have a link to that interview in which the creators said Azula was the epitome of pure evil? The interview I have only says she's manipulative. [/glow] (I'm doing the glow for my benefit so it's easy to find. ^_^)
I never said Azula was a true friend, but I think Azula sees them as the closest thing to friendship she can. And I agree, I doubt she would sacrifice her life for them---if she had to choose between the Fire Nation/Father and them. Though sacrificing her life for her father? I don't know why, but I believe she would. Now for Mai leaving Azula, I see where you're coming from, and it's possible (though I'm still not too sure about this) that she would leave Azula for Zuko. After all, if you are in an unhealthy relationship--you gotta leave sooner or later, and when you're given a good opportunity, you do it. Though I did notice something, that people tend to over look about Azula's tolerance when it comes to Mai.
In the Drill Mai stated that she wasn't going into the sludge--not caring if Azula threw all the lightning at her or whatever. People say that Mai goes against Azula, when she's not present---however in the Drill we are shown that Azula finds out about Mai not following orders because while Azula and Ty Lee were covered in mud, Mai was squeaky clean. Azula's smart, she could've concluded that Mai disobeyed her--and yet nothing happened. Azula tolerated it--and I can guess she did the same thing when she realized the bear was gone. XD
Doesn't that account for anything? No death threats like with the captain. Or glares like with the War Minister.
Same thing with Ty Lee, the girl was kinda slow on Azula's joke about the fangirls in Appa's Lost Days--and she didn't look roll her eyes. Though this was very small and could be ignored.
As for Ty Lee complimenting Azula out of fear. I think Ty Lee was sincere. Unlike in other cartoons we know when a character lies due to their acting and yet the person being deceived believes it, in Avatar they are good at lying---however when they do lie---it is automatically known to us that they were lying. We don't have to wait, we find out as soon as it happens. Or before it. Like in the Guru with Mai and Ty Lee, their act didn't sound like an act until Azula came along; in the Avatar State we knew Azula was lying cuz of what she said in the beginning. Yet with Ty Lee, there's no indication given to us that she was lying.
You're right. It's not normal for a child to insult her uncle about his weaknesses (though I still think that she mocked him because of what I said in my last post) but considering who her family is---maybe it is normal. Especially if we remember who her father is. I mean Ozai went to his father, right after Luten died causing Iroh to mourn, and asked him if he could have the throne since Iroh's bloodline is gone. Isn't that harsh to you? If the father's harsh, why can't the daughter be? What monkey sees; monkey does. (Did I get the right? Or is it hears? Sorry back to the point...)
And there is a little bit of normalcy in Azula. There's a flashback (I forget who's and when) of two little children playing and a man--who we can conclude is Iroh (I believe it was his flashback). Now if you study the picture, it can't be Luten and Zuko because Luten (from the look of his picture) was a full-grown man at the time of his death and we know that Zuko was only 12-ish at that time. Who else would Zuko be playing with that's around his height/age?
In Zuko Alone, she was playing tag (I think) with Zuko and neither of them seemed malice about it. They both had a smile on their face--like they were having fun.
As for Azula smiling while Aang was struck down, I'll keep out of that since I wasn't really part of it. I mean I saw what Kaibasgirl meant and I saw what General meant, but I don't know about that right now--so I'll stay neutral for now. ^_^ (Hope you guys don't mind.)
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kaibasgirl
Ba Sing Se Azula
The Sokkla Addict
Replace ships with fruit and that's exactly what you get.
Posts: 2,772
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Post by kaibasgirl on Aug 8, 2007 17:32:28 GMT -5
yiceman, General Z, your posts own. They were such a great read, as both of you are so unwavering in your points.
A friendship like Aang-Katara-Sokka and Azula-Mai-Ty Lee were both formed under such completely different circumstances, that you cannot even begin to compare the two!
Why don't we do an analyses? Let's start off with Team Avatar.
Sokka and Katara are a brother and a sister who have lost their mother in the war. They live on a frozen block of ice in the middle of nowhere with their grandmother, and are pretty much the only teens in the South Pole (as it is heavily implied).
Then one day they happen to stumble across the Avatar.
Wait, let's say that again.
The Avatar.
A person of legends. Someone who kids would fall asleep listening to stories of. A "larger than life" character. The person who's supposed to bring balance and peace to the world.
Granted, they didn't know it at the time, they just thought Aang was some random kid who was frozen in an iceberg for 100 years, until Zuko came along and revealed the truth.
So, yeah, they just found the last hope on earth, they aren't going to abandon him any time soon, so they run away on the back of his great flying bison to the North Pole, so he could learn how to waterbend properly, and so their adventure begins.
Now, let's break that up.
Aang is a twelve year old kid who never wanted his destiny, and ran away rather then accept it. He still suffers from the guilt that it was because of him his people died, and he has literally no one left, besides for Sokka and Katara, who are like his family/surrogate mother/brother.
He reveals himself to still being immature even at the start of the episodes, which is understandable, cause heck, he's just 12.
He also would rather avoid conflict, rather then face things head on, is a pacifist, and depends a lot on the help of his friends, and it isn't until season two that he actually starts to show some backbone and take charge of the situation.
Katara is a fourteen year old girl and the only waterbender left in her tribe. She is very maternal, headstrong, stubborn, and quite a temper, though she tries to be judicial.
When she meets Aang, her motherly instincts were aroused. She took care of him, encouraged him when he needed encouraging, taught him when he needed to be taught, stood up for him when he wouldn't stand up for himself...
In other words, she was a true, loyal, and dedicated friend right from the start, as is her nature.
Sokka is fifteen, he was left behind while his father went off to fight in the war because he was too young at the time. He promised his dad he'd keep his sister safe and wouldn't let any harm come to her.
He's sarcastic, lazy, but also posesses an intellectual side, and comes up with ingenius ideas that help the gang get out of tough situations. He will do anything to keep his promise to his father and protect those he loves most.
Now, their personalities may clash some times, but overall, they complement each other well. Not only that, but they spent six freakin' months on the back of a flying bison, travelling together, fighting together, avoiding/getting into trouble etc.
From the moment they left the South Pole, they had each other, and only each other to rely on. Yes, their fates became interwined, because Katara and Sokka (and Toph too, later on), chose that path.
Now, let's compare that to Azula-Mai-Ty Lee.
Azula, you have to remember, is first, and foremost, a princess. She has a duty to her country as a daughter of royalty, and it increased more so when her father was crowned as Fire Lord.
Mai and Ty Lee are both the daughters of nobility. Despite whatever may happen, their responsibilities, and the ones of Azula, will always be different, because Azula's will be far greater then theirs.
And because of their status, they were also raised to follow the etiquette of the court. Court people are raised to be silver-tongued speakers, enigmatic, sophisticated, they greet everyone with a cursory smile, and speak false words with no meaning behind them at every social gathering.
Isn't that why Ty Lee ran away to the circus? Because she didn't want to be what her parents were expecting her to be?
Anyway, the reason they became friends was probably because they met as children at some social event or something. There's not much to work on here, cause it's mostly speculation, but let's assume they were friends from when they were kids, before the flash back in Zuko Alone.
Any of you guys remember trying to make friends at school? It's not exactly a walk in the park. There's politics, disagreements, little kids especially have this thing that if they get into an arguement, said friend is no longer best friend but rather someone they'll hang out with if they find it in their hearts to forgive them, but that's completely irrelevant.
My point is, Azula-Mai-Ty Lee were KIDS when they became friends. KIDS do stupid things. KIDS get into fights. KIDS cannot be expected to click right away and suddenly have this feeling of "I care enough about you to die in your stead!"
They play with each other, have DMC's, and that's how they become closer, and, eventually, come to the level of friendship you would find in Team Avatar.
As stated before, they are children of the court. There was no threat of war hanging over their heads, no adventure to discover their destinies, no bad guys to fight/punish.
They were as normal as you or I in the sense that they spent time playing with each other, took an interest in each other, and found that they could have fun together.
What I'm trying to say is, a level of friendship like in Team Avatar is a level that most friends only reach after many, many years of knowing and interacting with each other.
Not only that, but in the beginning, in season one, the gaang didn't achieve that level yet. In "The Deserter" Sokka attacked Aang for hurting Katara, and I mean physically attacked him. In "Bato of the Water Tribe" they both abandoned him to go back to their father.
It's true, they did come back, and I think that was a major turning point in their relationship, something that sort of "sealed the deal", that now they were with him till the end, but this just proves my point that you don't jump from being acquaintences to practically siblings in one shot.
Ozai's Angels, on the other hand, all had parents. They had a schedule, bed times, and, in Azula's case, a time set aside for training. They didn't spend every moment with each other, unlike the gaang, where they could do pretty much whatever they wanted, when they wanted.
Also, they were never forced into a situation in which they had to choose, "you or me". They never had that worry that the day may come that one of them might have to die.
Certainly Team Avatar was aware of that from the start. They knew that by going with Aang, the day will come where lives will have to be sacrficed. They probably weren't fully aware in the beginning, but they certainly are now.
So, why am I saying all this? To show you that it's unrealistic to compare, even expect to see the same kind of friendship shown in Aang's group with Azula's posse. One has the fate of the world on its shoulders, with massive repercussions should they fail. The other has the backup of the Imperial Army at their beck and call.
Two completely different sets of personalities, two comepletely different circumstances, two completely different situations.
Anyway, to address your point, no, Azula probably would not sacrifice her life for them. Why? Because she is a princess, and in the laws of the world, someone of royalty takes precedence over someone of the court.
I wouldn't go as far as to say she loves them, because love in friendship is not something you can so easily throw out. I would say she cares about them, more than in the sense that they're so useful to her.
I've already stated my examples, so I won't repeat myself. You can certainly debate if she had ulterior motives for hugging them, but Mai already appeared to be perfectly at ease with her. She definitely doesn't have a fear like Ty Lee does, her refusal to go after the gang in "The Drill" shows that more then anything else.
So, no, I don't think Azula is merely her ticket to freedom. I believe she has true loyalties to the girl that will be seen in season three.
And, if the situation ever presented itself, I think Azula would do what she could to save her friends, but as it is, all three of them stand alone as superior fighters, and it's not likely they'll need to rely on each other to help them out.
On Zuko-Azula,
I have a brother and a sister. Yes, we tried killing each other. Not in the literal sense, because we all knew we'd never get away with it, but don't think there weren't times at the dinner table where we didn't pick up the knife and state quite clearly that if the other didn't shut up, they were going to find this lodged in a main artery.
Granted, all people are different, and in my case, we all have tempers that can spark pretty easily and can run very high, so most of the time our personalities clashed and we would say things out of anger, though our threats were always pretty empty.
Point is, yes, siblings can get on your nerves till the point that you want to throw their bodies over Niagra Falls and no, not in a barrel.
It's still debatable whether she was going to kill him, we don't know cause she never managed to get the attack out, it's possible she was going to severly injure him.
But, fine, let's say she was going to kill him, for the sake of arguing. What happened in CoD? She could have killed him then and there. She could have agreed to an Agni Kai with him, and gone on to burning him to a crisp with ease. She had the whole Dai Li at her command, she didn't really need him.
On Iroh, no, I don't think any of them (with the exception of Iroh), are capable of murder. At least not yet. And I concur, it probably didn't cross her mind that they would try to lay a scratch on her once she raised her hands.
But THAT'S why she pretended to surrender! To stop them and give her enough time to plan an escape!
If she would have gotten captured, not only would this constitute a failure on her part, but it would bring unimaginable shame to the Fire Nation!
Imagine, she, Princess Azula, getting captured by the Avatar and his group, and her uncle and brother, all of whom are enemies to the crown. Can you even fathom what that would do?
It's not simply a matter of pride (though that most likely played a big role), if she were to get captured, even if she would have escaped after, it would be a huge blow to the Fire Nation. People would start to think that maybe, the Fire Lord isn't that powerful after all, perhaps the Fire Nation is really weaker then it lets on, if it's own princess could get captured (after all, she's representing her father and her whole nation here).
Am I justifying the fact that she shot Iroh? Partially.
Was it neccessarily the right thing to do? No.
But then again, this is war.
And I still stand by what I said before. All "attempts" failed. Innocent until proven guilty.
As for Azula being daddy's girl. Come on, a ruse? Her loyalty to her country and her father are so ingrained, that it's little wonder her father favors her over her brother.
Even as a child, she had nothing but the highest opinion for her dad. You're not going to tell me a kid of 8 or 9 was just saying all those things as part of an elaborate plot to one day overthrow her father to get the crown. Heck, she didn't even know he was going to become Fire Lord, she was only stating her opinion.
I think we should stop debating whether she felt sorry for Lu Ten or not, because we're just going to run around in circles here. The shot was from Zuko's POV anyway, so that's why we don't see her expression.
And, I'm repeating myself here, but we don't know how much time passed between the news of Lu Ten's death to when we see them together again.
No, what she said was inappropriate, but like Maylene pointed out, she probably thought it was pathetic of him to give up like that. Instead of taking revenge on the ones who killed his son, he just completely fell apart. What kind of future leader does that?!
Besides, Ozai, too, asked for the crown, shortly after Lu Ten's death. The apple doesn't fall far from the tree.
When she shot down Aang, she was smirking in victory. She just defeated the greatest threat to her father's rein, why WOULDN'T she be happy? Killing Aang would destroy any hope of salvation people had when he reappeared. Doing this act meant squandering any rebellions, any future revolts, because now there wasn't a symbol of hope for people to look to anymore, and the Fire Nation would continue on its path to absolute power.
Okay, that was probably longer then the last thing I typed up, so I'll just address two more points and be done with.
Iroh and Azula are a lot more similar then you might think, and I have no doubt that Iroh's past is much like Azula's present.
You say Iroh showed signs of compassion and love even before he changed. Azula has too. She loves her father. You can say it's a ruse, or a plot till your blue in the face, but again, like Maylene took the time to post those quotes, everything she's done is for her father. You don't do something for someone if you don't love them, or have loyalty to them.
Don't get me wrong, I don't want Azula do to an "Iroh" or a "Zuko", I enjoy her character for what it is and the current depth it has. I would like to see more of a backstory though, more of her past and the relationship she has with Ozai.
yiceman, you asked what the show stands to gain by redeeming Azula? It stands to teach a greater lesson then your average superman comic book ever could, and that's that the world isn't painted in black and white, but rather infinite shades of gray.
~Téa
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